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Master of Mankind...on the horizon?


b1soul

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I've already blown a week's worth of forum time in a single morning given various post lengths already, so out of necessity this'll have to be brief. It's a cool side-topic though, so I didn't want to look like I was ignoring it.  

 

I can see Darth's point, though I don't necessarily agree - and it's worth saying that even if I did, I'm not sure I'd be right: the Word Bearers kneeling is probably the scene I've had the most positive reader feedback for in my entire career. Where that's concerned, it's definitely a step up from "The Emperor chastised Lorgar", but that's because we're told in the old lore that Lorgar looked ravaged after his chastisement and needed a month in isolation, unable to do anything or appear in public. Meeting that demand required a scene with symbolic and real impact occur.

 

Added to that, let's be real, here. Monarchia isn't some terribly cruel event that made Lorgar rebel against the Emperor. Lorgar went seeking the truth because of the Emperor's disavowal of divinity, not because "I can't take this humiliation, I think Chaos rocks now instead." I struggle to see it some overly cruel heavy-handed move by the Emperor; these guys are all demigod warlords in the middle of conquering the galaxy and exterminating planetary populations (and entire species) on a monthly basis. It was the kind of stark warning that can easily be seen as tyrannical to 21st Century mindsets, while being Tuesday for the master of an entire galaxy who routinely sends species to extinction because he believes he has to. This isn't even in the Top 50 Major Things the Emperor Did.

 

Guilliman is even there and does... basically nothing. He's not awed and amazed at the situation; he's not trembling with surprise at the indignation of the moment. He's just there, calm and formal, waiting for it to be over. This is a major teachable moment for a Legion, and he's there as an example of a Legion doing its job, no more, no less. Argel Tal and the other characters don't lament it for novels and novels afterwards, either. Most of them never speak of it again, even when they're fighting the Ultramarines they're not banging on about it afterwards, unable to get over it. It was a lecture in a crater, not the beginning of the end.

 

This is one of 'those having your cake and eating it' scenarios, because it was both emotionally devastating in the moment and, frankly, also not that bad in context. He didn't scourge his son before all of the others and spread word that Lorgar was a miserable failure who everyone needed to laugh at, or dissolve the Word Bearers, or send them home with smacked bottoms. He gathered them, dismantled the trophy they'd built to congratulate themselves on a lie, told them to kneel before their king, and told them to stop doing what they were doing, and start behaving like the other Space Marines.

 

It wasn't the event itself that carried any weight with Lorgar, after the emotional turmoil had faded. It was the point of the lesson: the Emperor insisting he wasn't a god. That's what makes Lorgar go in search of the truth. He's not super-sad or humiliated over Monarchia forevermore. He even sends his sons - the ones that can't get over it, the ones "lost to hatred" - to fight/die at Calth, and keeps the majority with him that aren't bitter over it.

 

I see the Word Bearers' censure s a cool, symbolic, and serious gesture in the middle of a galaxy-conquering military movement, not some unreasonable Emperor-based evil incompetence that simply can't be imagined as plausible. I can see why someone might think it's too much, but in context I think it comes across as powerful and plausible rather than anything else. 

 

(Also, directly to Darth, I hope you stay around at the B&C, dude/dudette. It's an awesome forum and detailed analyses/discussions like yours are always welcomed.)

 

I definetely see merit to that kind of thinking, but I also think that context is where the book kinda falls flat to me, because it does not present the idea that the Emperor was neither unreasonable nor excessive strongly enough. That is to say: I think your reasoning has a lot of value to it, I don't feel your story has presented it well enough. I don't want to elaborate too much; the discussion is kinda off-topic as it is.

 

Don't be bothered too much by my complaining. They stem from spending way too much time thinking about stories instead of writing them.

 

That said, do you view the Emperor as someone immoral? I'm actually curious, to be honest, especially in the light of the extract from the Master of Mankind I've just read.

The Emperor at the same time is and is not immoral. He is fully beyond the social construct of morality, as he is not part of any society. He is Him On The Golden Throne, Master of Mankind. He cannot be judged or rated on any scale of human morality. He is immoral, because he doesn't follow the code of morality. He isn't because he's larger than morality itself, he is reason for the current, in-setting morality.

Can I just say, as someone who did not get the limited edition of Talon of Horus and regrets it immensely, that I'm a little ticked there isn't a special edition of this book? I would pay top dollar for a few fun extras, maybe another short story, even a signature. 

 

Oh well. Not a serious complaint, as I'm still getting it, but one nonetheless. 

Can I just say, as someone who did not get the limited edition of Talon of Horus and regrets it immensely, that I'm a little ticked there isn't a special edition of this book? I would pay top dollar for a few fun extras, maybe another short story, even a signature. 

 

Oh well. Not a serious complaint, as I'm still getting it, but one nonetheless. 

 

Yeah I was looking, would have done so as well but whatever, I dont buy many hard covers, but when I do, they are written by ADB.

ADB, regarding what you said about Monarchia, is that partly why both Compliance actions you describe are essentially genocide? I figured that was simply down to the zeal that Ingethel describes the Word Bearers showing and acing on, but what you've said has definitely out a fresh spin on it.

Can I just say, as someone who did not get the limited edition of Talon of Horus and regrets it immensely, that I'm a little ticked there isn't a special edition of this book? I would pay top dollar for a few fun extras, maybe another short story, even a signature.

Oh well. Not a serious complaint, as I'm still getting it, but one nonetheless.

Yeah I was looking, would have done so as well but whatever, I dont buy many hard covers, but when I do, they are written by ADB.

Somebody make this a meme! tongue.png

Excellent abstract. Definitely looking forward to this. I am surprised they didn't make this something like the primarch series in terms of presentation. Even sons of the forge has a pretty cool SE.

 

Anyone know some good background books for this one? For example before I read PoD I tried to hit up all the background stuff like Lightning Tower and last remembrancer which made PoD more enjoyable.

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