Master of Mankind...on the horizon?

[ZebraM]

I really like how Valdor's been built up to something much more interesting than just the Emperor's bodyguard over the course of a few different books.

[Sandlemad]

Anyone know some good background books for this one? For example before I read PoD I tried to hit up all the background stuff like Lightning Tower and last remembrancer which made PoD more enjoyable.

Blood Games from Tales of Heresy for sure, it's basically the longest piece centred around the Custodes. A good bit of it is set in the palace, as with Praetorian of Dorn. It's also the only other work where we see just how sneaky an 8-foot guy in golden armour can be.

Nemesis, as Son Of Carnelian says. There's a few chapters near the end of A Thousand Sons and near the start of Outcast Dead that deal with the webway and its breach but the majority of those books aren't directly related. Honestly it's all fairly uncovered territory, even if the absolute bones of it were broadly covered in visions of heresy years ago.

[DarkChaplain]

Deliverance Lost has the Emperor talking about it somewhat, and Malcador reveals the project to Mortarion in Daemonology.

[Mellow]

I like how the woman refers to The Emperor as "not even human"

[Scribe]

I like how the woman refers to The Emperor as "not even human"

 

Indeed, for how could he be in the eyes of 'normal' humans? I cannot wait for this book.

 

Cannot.Wait.For.Nov26

[MrDarth151]

I really wish I could say that the extract had inspired similar confidence in me.

 

The entire thing is excellently written on technical level, and yet when I reached the part in which Valdor explains Emperor's reasoning, I could not help but cringe.

 

I think ADB's and mine visions of The Emperor of Mankind are simply impossible to reconciliate.

[Izlude]

Wouldn't consider it a spoiler to talk about an abstract but two questions:

 

1. In the beginning: I know people threw out some ideas is this the birth of the primordial gods (Khorne?)

2. The end of the abstract: I assume this is just some chaos thing traveling via the webway once the breach occurred at the palace?

 

MrDarth: I actually liked the scene that this minister person did all sorts of bad things but the reason she is being executed was the reason she comes to the conclusion with thirst. Sounds like a very emperor thing to do.

[Scribe]

The entire thing is excellently written on technical level, and yet when I reached the part in which Valdor explains Emperor's reasoning, I could not help but cringe.

Why?

 

It's a very relevant item for a species that is dependent on it.

 

Maybe it's just because of where I am in the world but that was actually my favorite bit. :D

[MrDarth151]

Wouldn't consider it a spoiler to talk about an abstract but two questions:

1. In the beginning: I know people threw out some ideas is this the birth of the primordial gods (Khorne?)

2. The end of the abstract: I assume this is just some chaos thing traveling via the webway once the breach occurred at the palace?

MrDarth: I actually liked the scene that this minister person did all sorts of bad things but the reason she is being executed was the reason she comes to the conclusion with thirst. Sounds like a very emperor thing to do.

Oh, you have no idea how much do I need to fight against myself to not be snarky right now.

*Shrug* To me, that scene made him sound like one of the less intelligent 20th century dictators. I don't appreciate it.

I will wait for the full book, and I will read it, but I simply cannot muster enthusiasm for it, if that is what I can expect from the Emperor in that book.

The entire thing is excellently written on technical level, and yet when I reached the part in which Valdor explains Emperor's reasoning, I could not help but cringe.

Why?

It's a very relevant item for a species that is dependent on it.

Maybe it's just because of where I am in the world but that was actually my favorite bit.

To put it simply: I disliked the fact that there was evidently some need to mention that he specifically did not care for her commiting purges and preparing rebellion. Disregarding everything else: he was opposed to purges in the past, and has either imprisoned or executed leaders that did it.

I do not believe it is consistent with other showings, nor do I think that suggesting The Emperor deliberatly ignores plight of his people and unrest in his capitol is a sign of a great leader. Indeed, most of the people who do that are, in both history and fiction, incompetent fools. And I like my Emperor a bit above the likes of Kim Jong-un.

[Scribe]

Ah, see I think the Emperor is little more than the combination of every bloody handed tyrant we know, amped up to 11 as is good and right in 40K. The Last Church and all that.

 

To me, its perfectly in character. Sure maybe SOME tyrants were toppled and some rebellions put down, but its more interesting to me that he would instead point to a resource that in our own age is said to be an eventual reason for war....as the cause for execution.

 

I know I push the bounds on this forum enough so dont want to get into it too much IRL terms, but its a very timely entry to me.

 

Further, the Emperor is not a great leader, hes just the one able to break the eggs to make the omelette, regardless of the casualty count.

 

It proves the callousness and lack of morality (as we know it) that the Emperor has.

[MrDarth151]

Ah, see I think the Emperor is little more than the combination of every bloody handed tyrant we know, amped up to 11 as is good and right in 40K. The Last Church and all that.

 

To me, its perfectly in character. Sure maybe SOME tyrants were toppled and some rebellions put down, but its more interesting to me that he would instead point to a resource that in our own age is said to be an eventual reason for war....as the cause for execution.

 

I know I push the bounds on this forum enough so dont want to get into it too much IRL terms, but its a very timely entry to me.

 

Further, the Emperor is not a great leader, hes just the one able to break the eggs to make the omelette, regardless of the casualty count.

 

It proves the callousness and lack of morality (as we know it) that the Emperor has.

 

See, to you, this seems fine because you have your own circumstances that make you appreciate the scene more.

 

To me, it is more annoying, because I am an ethician by trade. I know my morality. I could make a reasonable argument for the Emperor wiping planets, wiping civilisations, and it being moral by the morality as we know it. It is an entire principle of utilitarianism and consquentialism.

 

The end justifies the means, but there needs to be an end.

 

So what end does tolerance towards purges serves? He chastised his sons when they crossed the line into pointlessly killing innocents, but she is above it? He was so intolerant of it that Perturabo considered his reaction to him wiping out Olympia enough of a reason to join Horus.

 

Not to mention that he allows mass murder to go unopposed when one of his main enemies is a god of slaughter.

 

It annoys me, because it serves no purpoes, no goal, except to paint The Emperor in a little bit of a worst light.

[Scribe]

That's not necessarily fact though. Maybe this lady was a political ally? We know he left other Tyrants alive as it suited his purposes.

 

We know also, simply declining to join the Imperium would get at the least your leadership torched or worse.

 

Mass Murder is right up his alley.

 

On fact I don't think there is a single positive reference towards the Emperor at all, and I would argue that's intended.

 

A common refrain from imperial fans of 40K is 'yeah we are terrible, but it could be worse look at X!'

 

That's the scenario the Emperor has painted.

 

'Hey at least I'm not like those guys from old night!'

 

By any morality I would cling to, he's a genocidal Villain.

[Mellow]

The Emperor was not a nice man. Or a great man. He was just A man with a bit of immortality, some academic skills and perhaps some form of precognition that meant he thought he'd try to guide Humanity.

 

It all went fairly badly ... but that's Warhammer for you, right?

[Roomsky]

The Emperor was not a nice man. Or a great man. He was just A man with a bit of immortality, some academic skills and perhaps some form of precognition that meant he thought he'd try to guide Humanity.

 

It all went fairly badly ... but that's Warhammer for you, right?

 

And planet-shattering psychic power.

 

I think we're all being a little biased here. There was a time where the Emperor was a great man, and potentially a nice man. We latch on to modern fluff because we know it best, but it wasn't always this way. The vagueries of codex past allowed the Emperor to be portrayed as super-humanly awesome, because his actions didn't need to be described in great detail (as I always assert, stop describing superhuman tactician's strategies in great detail, you are not a superhuman tactician). He was a pretty cool dude that, as 1d4chan puts it, "had the parenting skills of a coffee table."

 

I personally prefer the modern depiction of the Emperor, the being who would do anything for mankind but is also so distant from them that he cannot comprehend their needs or see them as anything more than a collective, and acts accordingly monstrous at times. But it is certainly not his only portrayal.

[Vesper]

The Emperor was not a nice man. Or a great man. He was just A man with a bit of immortality, some academic skills and perhaps some form of precognition that meant he thought he'd try to guide Humanity.

 

It all went fairly badly ... but that's Warhammer for you, right?

Well, he's not a man. He's more like a freak. An anathema, the daemons would say, a cosmic monster, a soul driker.

 

Some talk about his morality, but he just can't have any, for he doesn't know what it's like to be human. He understands being in other ways than basic humans, and he has another sense of scale and another overall vision, other references than us. When did he stated it was about being a great leader that inspires Mankind to be better ? I mean, he's the guy who kidnapped children to craft his armies and created his own sons/generals in a lab. He's as far from Mankind as any can be.

 

We know he intended to create a new kind of being (the Primachs) that unlike humans, wouldn't be corruptible by Chaos. So what would've been the after Great Crusade ? Genocide of Mankind to weaken the Chaos gods ? Other waves of forced post-human evolution, because the Emperor was so super afraid of psykers being more and more common ?

 

The Emperor was so busy fighting his cosmic war against Chaos he probably didn't even realized he was using Mankind as pawns, just like the dark gods.

 

Dude, if he was real, he'd probably kill me.

[Mellow]

The fluff has always said He is ultimately just a man.

 

I'm not sure he was afraid of payers. Some fluff stated he wanted to help Mankind ascend to some kind of psychic awakening where Humans could defends themselves from the Warp just like he could ... but then the Eldar are far more psychically attuned and look how terribly that went for them.

 

You'd think to defend against the Warp he would have concentrated on trying to engineer the whole of Mankind into Blanks!

[Vesper]

But he ain't all powerful. And he clearly isn't "just a man".

[Scribe]

To paraphrase a great book 'He wasn't a God, maybe not a man, but never a God.'

 

Hes obviously more than 'just' a massively gifted psyker. Is the old RoC fluff still legit? I dont know but I would LOVE IT if ADB reaffirmed that. :D

[JH79]

If my appetite wasn't wet enough for this book already having now read that extract has left me salivating like a teething toddler! So much detail in such a short amount of time, so much bile at the thought of Horus and his filth breed approaching Terra, the twitches of pain in the child's face, the acceptance that to leave the Golden Throne is to lose everything... so much left to be explored and uncovered! I cannot wait!

As for The Emperor, I feel i could never properly add anything to the passionate and informative discussions that have been raised about Him in this thread so far... my thought process, however is a relatively simple one. A while back ADB answered that most burning of all questions on his Facebook page, what does He (see what i did there) listen to for inspiration while writing about The Emperor of Man... the answer? Thunder Cats! This is The Emperor to me, Epic with no equal!

As for all the killing & sacrifices he's committed and had others commit etc etc... well sometimes you've got to break a few eggs to make an omelette

[A D-B]

Wouldn't consider it a spoiler to talk about an abstract but two questions:

1. In the beginning: I know people threw out some ideas is this the birth of the primordial gods (Khorne?)

2. The end of the abstract: I assume this is just some chaos thing traveling via the webway once the breach occurred at the palace?

MrDarth: I actually liked the scene that this minister person did all sorts of bad things but the reason she is being executed was the reason she comes to the conclusion with thirst. Sounds like a very emperor thing to do.

Oh, you have no idea how much do I need to fight against myself to not be snarky right now.

*Shrug* To me, that scene made him sound like one of the less intelligent 20th century dictators. I don't appreciate it.

I will wait for the full book, and I will read it, but I simply cannot muster enthusiasm for it, if that is what I can expect from the Emperor in that book.

The entire thing is excellently written on technical level, and yet when I reached the part in which Valdor explains Emperor's reasoning, I could not help but cringe.

Why?

It's a very relevant item for a species that is dependent on it.

Maybe it's just because of where I am in the world but that was actually my favorite bit.

To put it simply: I disliked the fact that there was evidently some need to mention that he specifically did not care for her commiting purges and preparing rebellion. Disregarding everything else: he was opposed to purges in the past, and has either imprisoned or executed leaders that did it.

I do not believe it is consistent with other showings, nor do I think that suggesting The Emperor deliberatly ignores plight of his people and unrest in his capitol is a sign of a great leader.

If the Emperor sending Valdor to execute someone for treason and taking the criminal's child is somehow impossible to reconcile for you, and somehow unbelievable in scope, then you're definitely right: our viewpoints won't align. And if you're saying that's inconsistent with other portrayals... um... you've not got much of a case there.

In fact, that's kind of alarming because (spoilers) all of those kids that got turned into Space Marines weren't volunteers, and all of those cultures he exterminated weren't thrilled with the idea of extinction, and all of those planets he conquered weren't giving the thumbs up about being conquered, and...

Really, dude. If that extract doesn't sit well with you, when it's just about the most minor thing ever written about the Emperor in published lore, I wonder just who you think he is and what you've read about his actions in the past, since you seem to be expecting something entirely unrelated to everything previously written about him. He sends Valdor to execute a criminal stealing a precious and rare resource from Imperial territory. You think that is bizarre and uncharacteristic and a sign of a terrible leader?

I try to give the benefit of the doubt and take dissenting opinion on board (indeed, I even try to write so dissenting opinion may also be right; or simply not to put my own opinion on the lore in at all), but at this point it's sounding a bit like you're fighting really hard not to like it. There's nothing remotely out of character for the Emperor in that, and nothing even particularly noteworthy.

[Loesh]

Regardless of if you are pro-imperial, pro-Chaos, or even pro-Xenos I find the concept of anyone finding the Emperor a 'great leader' as a bit alarming. He was a skilled tactician, a immensely powerful psyker, and vastly intelligent being to the point of being a borderline Eldritch Horror. But he was also cold and callous towards the vast majority of the galaxy, holding little care for what got in the way of his own particular vision. Almost everything was done with practicality in mind, I say almost everything because there were indeed brief moments where he spared someone, or where he tolerated some rival group, but only because they could not stop or even hinder him. At best he was a tyrant who ruled the galaxy with an iron fist, at worst he was a monstrous genocidal maniac who was granted an insane amount of power and control over the human race to it's ultimate misery.

 

Either interpretation is not 'great' to me.

[bluntblade]

HIYA!!

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/2/2f/Celia.jpg/799px-Celia.jpg

I just noticed the bumplate. Might be even more awkward than boobplates

[Praetor of Calth]

I've never understood why everyone thinks the Emperor was such a bad leader. Have any of you actually been in a management position? Trying to deal with a group of 20 individuals who all have there own desires and wishes is not exactly as easy as it sounds.

 

And that's without factoring the trillions upon trillions of humans and Astartes under those 20 individuals that the Emperor has to manage.

[Robster The Lobster]

Can´t say how much I´m looking forward to Master of Mankind, A D-B is one of the few authors that I trust completely to give me a good story. So already pre-ordered the hardback, thinking about the mp3, though I want to know who is reading it first.

 

In regards to the Master of Mankind himself, here are a few of my thoughts.

 

Is the Emperor perfect? Hell no. With today's standards he would be the worst criminal that had ever existed. But, that could apply to thousands in the grim dark that is the 40k(or 30k in this case) universe.

He is a tyrant, with enough power to not having to worry about people rising up against him. That is usually what keep tyrants in check, the knowledge that other countries, or your own population will unite against you. But the Emperor,spent millenniums  knowing that nothing save the Dark Gods themselves are a threat to him.

 

Really, no race or singular person is strong enough to even threathen him, or his empire. And he have lived in this state for a very long time, long enough to forget to consider the individuals beneath him.

In regards to his treatment of his sons, lets face it, to him they were tools created for a specific purpose. It didn´t concern him if they wanted his preordained path or not. But that is not unusual in the grim dark either. Literally every Astartes is forcefully recurited, though there is a crucial difference between the Primarchs and the Astartes. Namely that the Astartes were once humans, they have something that binds them to the greater destiny of mankind, the primarchs do not. So when they started to see the flaws in their father, and began to question him they had nothing else to bind them to their his vision.
 

So to wrap it up. The greatest flaw of both the Emperor and his sons, is not their tyrant ways. It is the arrogance coming from being the apex predator/s, knowing that nothing threatens you, and nothing is your equal. That was made the primarchs fall to chaos, because they didn´t consider it a threat, and that made the Emperor forget that his sons united, were a threat even to him.

 

This is at least my thoughts the Emperor and his `failings

[Scribe]

I've never understood why everyone thinks the Emperor was such a bad leader. Have any of you actually been in a management position? Trying to deal with a group of 20 individuals who all have there own desires and wishes is not exactly as easy as it sounds.

 

And that's without factoring the trillions upon trillions of humans and Astartes under those 20 individuals that the Emperor has to manage.

 

Emperor, The Ultimate in Middle Management