InquisitorBlack Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=175505&st=0 Madness is occurring in "the" Australian community forum and this ludicrous interpretation of the rules was actually enforced at Cancon, a premier Australian competitive event when someone kicked up a fuss against a BA army running 3 Vindis. I am bringing this to BnC's attention so that such ignorance can be stamped out. Feel free to post on there helping the ranks of the sane and your BA brothers in Aus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Tyler Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I don't know why there would be any confusion on this issue. Pages 73 and 88 of the rulebook are pretty clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Not all rulebooks use those page numbers :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vettanker Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I don't know why there would be any confusion on this issue. Pages 73 and 88 of the rulebook are pretty clear. Sadly, people can confuse just about anything. Could also just be a case of power gamers doing anything they have to to get an edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Wow golly gee, some people.. why else would that upgrade exist, so we can fire the storm bolter at full bs?! The issue seems to be clear - there is the (somewhat unnecessary) clarification that ordnance can be fired as snap shot (because youre going at cruising speed, being shaken or something similar). Nowhere is it stated that you must fire ordnance as snap shot when going at cruising speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelus_Raphael Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 It was also pointed out by my local GW-staffer that some of the small format versions (such as the one in Deathstorm) have a few details/rules missing although he couldn't remember which rules... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I don't know why there would be any confusion on this issue. Pages 73 and 88 of the rulebook are pretty clear. Sadly, people can confuse just about anything. Could also just be a case of power gamers doing anything they have to to get an edge. What do you expect from a Penal Colony? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 This is madness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 This is australia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Angels! Tonight we dine in hell! What were we talking about again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Angels! Tonight we dine in hell! What were we talking about again? I would imagine many Australians would be happy to dine in hell, there are fewer things in hell trying to kill you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 BA have uad fast Vindis for years. 12 inch move and shoot is essential for Vindis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 It was also pointed out by my local GW-staffer that some of the small format versions (such as the one in Deathstorm) have a few details/rules missing although he couldn't remember which rules... I dont believe that this is true. Maybe the rules for special scenarios and such but the core rules are all in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brit Viper Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 What was the counter argument for not using them with it? Just curious as it was upheld in an event and would love to see how it was interpreted. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 That is some moronic bullcrap. Fail TOs are fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm sort of stepping out of my comfort zone here, being mostly a Grey Knights player, but I gotta say I think I agree with the guys over at WargamerAU. Supercharged vehicles become fast. Fast vehicles can move at Cruising Speed can fire 2 weapons at full ballistic skill, as opposed to normal vehicles which can't fire any. However, Ordnance Weapons cannot be fired if you moved at crusing speed, unless they are fired as snap shots. A large blast weapon such as a demolisher cannon can't be fired as a snap shot, so can't be fired at cruising speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm sort of stepping out of my comfort zone here, being mostly a Grey Knights player, but I gotta say I think I agree with the guys over at WargamerAU. Supercharged vehicles become fast. Fast vehicles can move at Cruising Speed can fire 2 weapons at full ballistic skill, as opposed to normal vehicles which can't fire any. However, Ordnance Weapons cannot be fired if you moved at crusing speed, unless they are fired as snap shots. A large blast weapon such as a demolisher cannon can't be fired as a snap shot, so can't be fired at cruising speed. Bolded part is a made up rule. What the rule states is that Cruising Vehicles can STILL snap shot ordnance; it does not say they can ONLY snap shot ordnance, it's not exclusive or exhaustive. It's merely an exception which does not rule out any other possible exceptions. The Fast rule is just another exception that can not be completely discounted. Anyway, this is a breakdown of why this logic is wrong, and someone may want to paste this on the SpartaAustralia forums.. 1. Normal Rules for Ordnance weapons states that Vehicles at Cruising Speed can snap shot Ordnance, providing it can be snap shot. "Unlike other wapons, vehicles can move and fire with Ordnance weapons. However, a vehicle that fires and Ordnance weapon can only make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn. A vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can still snap shot Ordnance, but of course, cannot fire any Ordnance weapon that cannot be fired as Snap Shots." (SRB, pp.??) 2. Fast Vehicles can move at Cruising speed and Fire up to two weapons at Ballistic Skill "Fast vehicles that moved at cruising speed can fire up to two weapons using their full ballistic skill." (SRB, pp.88)3. Blood Angels Vindicators are Fast As such; A normal Vindicator at Cruising Speed can only opt to fire its Ordnance weapon as a snap shot as per (1), but since Demolisher Cannon is a Blast weapon, it can not be snap fired, so it can not be fired at all. A Fast Vindicator at Cruising Speed can fire two of its weapons at full BS as per (2), ergo it can fire its Ordnance weapon at full BS, and thus does not need to snap shot with it. That means it does not even need to be considered with regards to the exception in (1), except that upon firing its Demolisher Cannon, its remaining weapons (Storm Bolter) can only Snap Shot. I don't see how this is even an issue, but it's SpartaAustralia and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praefectus Invictus Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Angels! Tonight we dine in hell! What were we talking about again? I would imagine many Australians would be happy to dine in hell, there are fewer things in hell trying to kill you. Don't know about that mate, we got the most venemous spider in the world right here down under! Hell is like a walk in the park for us Aussies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 This forum doesn't bite :) I'm sort of stepping out of my comfort zone here, being mostly a Grey Knights player, but I gotta say I think I agree with the guys over at WargamerAU. Supercharged vehicles become fast. Fast vehicles can move at Cruising Speed can fire 2 weapons at full ballistic skill, as opposed to normal vehicles which can't fire any. However, Ordnance Weapons cannot be fired if you moved at crusing speed, unless they are fired as snap shots. A large blast weapon such as a demolisher cannon can't be fired as a snap shot, so can't be fired at cruising speed. Then let us look at it another way. If you believe that a Fast vehicle can't fire a demolisher cannon at Cruising Speed, can a Super Heavy? The Super Heavy rules allow you to fire Ordnance without a problem. However, if we use the logic presented in the Australian forum topic, the basic rule about Ordnance for vehicles would overrule the advanced rule about Ordnance for Super Heavies and thus it wouldn't get to fire if it's Demolisher Cannon, etc, if it moved greater than 6". The same goes for Flyers who are equipped with the Hellstrike Missile. A Flyer has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of 36". Therefore, if the Australian forum logic is to be used, this missile can't be used at all. Sorry, but the idea is simply ludicrous. Generic vehicle rules are basic. Fast Vehicle rules are advanced. A Fast vehicle firing up to two weapons at full ballistic skill (advanced) is not going to get trumped by a basic rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Sad that this is an issue, just sad...shakes head...what I would do is run two detachments with six vindicators, and take along my rulebook :D Ask them, what game are they playing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 This forum doesn't bite I'm sort of stepping out of my comfort zone here, being mostly a Grey Knights player, but I gotta say I think I agree with the guys over at WargamerAU. Supercharged vehicles become fast. Fast vehicles can move at Cruising Speed can fire 2 weapons at full ballistic skill, as opposed to normal vehicles which can't fire any. However, Ordnance Weapons cannot be fired if you moved at crusing speed, unless they are fired as snap shots. A large blast weapon such as a demolisher cannon can't be fired as a snap shot, so can't be fired at cruising speed. Then let us look at it another way. If you believe that a Fast vehicle can't fire a demolisher cannon at Cruising Speed, can a Super Heavy? The Super Heavy rules allow you to fire Ordnance without a problem. However, if we use the logic presented in the Australian forum topic, the basic rule about Ordnance for vehicles would overrule the advanced rule about Ordnance for Super Heavies and thus it wouldn't get to fire if it's Demolisher Cannon, etc, if it moved greater than 6". The same goes for Flyers who are equipped with the Hellstrike Missile. A Flyer has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of 36". Therefore, if the Australian forum logic is to be used, this missile can't be used at all. Sorry, but the idea is simply ludicrous. Generic vehicle rules are basic. Fast Vehicle rules are advanced. A Fast vehicle firing up to two weapons at full ballistic skill (advanced) is not going to get trumped by a basic rule. Not sure if the SH vehicle rules and Ordnance are exactly comparable but the Hellstrike Missile issue is spot on example of why Ordnance limitations do not conflict with firing them as Fast vehicles; Fast, Flyer, Super Heavy - these are all exceptions to the Ordnance rules, which themselves do not exclude exceptions. I would probably flip the table and walk off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 A Super Heavy can move up to 12" and still fire every weapon at full BS without reprimand. It's comparable because this TO would have to rule that it could not fire its Ordnance if it moved 6-12". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 A Super Heavy can move up to 12" and still fire every weapon at full BS without reprimand. It's comparable because this TO would have to rule that it could not fire its Ordnance if it moved 6-12". True, yeah, both points are equally valid, my hair is no bird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm sort of stepping out of my comfort zone here, being mostly a Grey Knights player, but I gotta say I think I agree with the guys over at WargamerAU. Supercharged vehicles become fast. Fast vehicles can move at Cruising Speed can fire 2 weapons at full ballistic skill, as opposed to normal vehicles which can't fire any. However, Ordnance Weapons cannot be fired if you moved at crusing speed, unless they are fired as snap shots. A large blast weapon such as a demolisher cannon can't be fired as a snap shot, so can't be fired at cruising speed. Bolded part is a made up rule. What the rule states is that Cruising Vehicles can STILL snap shot ordnance; it does not say they can ONLY snap shot ordnance, it's not exclusive or exhaustive. It's merely an exception which does not rule out any other possible exceptions. The Fast rule is just another exception that can not be completely discounted. Ah, see, it's not. The rule states you can snap fire Ordnance weapons, and then goes on to say that Ordnance weapons that cannot be snap fired, cannot be fired at all. Regardless of what ballisitic skill you are entitled to use, unless the model has a specific exemption or allowance then it must abide by all the ordnance rules, which include only snap firing ordnance if you have moved at cruising speed. Simply being allowed to use your full BS at Cruising Speed does not specifically exempt you from having to snap shot ordnance after doing so. Is that the result GW intended? Who knows. It would seem counterintuitive to add that caveat (after moving cruising speed, Ordnance may only be snap fired) and then immediately make sure it never applied to anyone. The only vehicles that can fire any weapons at cruising speed are fast vehicles and fliers, and they both have a 'fire at full BS value' rule. If the Ordnance rule isn't meant to apply to them, then who is it meant for? Superheavies at least are always counted as stationary for the purposes of shooting, so they get a pass. I just don't see how you can interpret "fire at full BS" to mean "fire ordnance at full BS after moving at cruising speed". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm sort of stepping out of my comfort zone here, being mostly a Grey Knights player, but I gotta say I think I agree with the guys over at WargamerAU. Supercharged vehicles become fast. Fast vehicles can move at Cruising Speed can fire 2 weapons at full ballistic skill, as opposed to normal vehicles which can't fire any. However, Ordnance Weapons cannot be fired if you moved at crusing speed, unless they are fired as snap shots. A large blast weapon such as a demolisher cannon can't be fired as a snap shot, so can't be fired at cruising speed. Bolded part is a made up rule. What the rule states is that Cruising Vehicles can STILL snap shot ordnance; it does not say they can ONLY snap shot ordnance, it's not exclusive or exhaustive. It's merely an exception which does not rule out any other possible exceptions. The Fast rule is just another exception that can not be completely discounted. Ah, see, it's not. The rule states you can snap fire Ordnance weapons, and then goes on to say that Ordnance weapons that cannot be snap fired, cannot be fired at all. Regardless of what ballisitic skill you are entitled to use, unless the model has a specific exemption or allowance then it must abide by all the ordnance rules, which include only snap firing ordnance if you have moved at cruising speed. Simply being allowed to use your full BS at Cruising Speed does not specifically exempt you from having to snap shot ordnance after doing so. Is that the result GW intended? Who knows. It would seem counterintuitive to add that caveat (after moving cruising speed, Ordnance may only be snap fired) and then immediately make sure it never applied to anyone. The only vehicles that can fire any weapons at cruising speed are fast vehicles and fliers, and they both have a 'fire at full BS value' rule. If the Ordnance rule isn't meant to apply to them, then who is it meant for? Superheavies at least are always counted as stationary for the purposes of shooting, so they get a pass. I just don't see how you can interpret "fire at full BS" to mean "fire ordnance at full BS after moving at cruising speed". Re Bold 1: The vehicle in question does have a specific exemption, it's Fast. Fast allows it to fire up to two of its weapons (and that wording automatically includes ordnance since there is no weapon type exclusion) at Full BS. Firing at Normal BS is NOT Snap Firing. Hence it's not even a matter of debate as to whether it can fire its Blast Ordnance; the rules about firing Ordnance at Snap Fire do not appy at all. Unit A has trait B Trait B allows you to do Action C. Action C is not Action D. Hence rules for Action D do not apply to Unit A. It's direct and simple logic. What's so hard? Re Bold 2: Eh, the rule states that the vehicle can fire two weapons at Full BS instead of Snap Firing due to regular Cruise Speed restrictions, and now I have no idea why you think this would somehow exclude Ordnance weapons. You are making exceptions and inclusions at whim; that's not the way rules work. The rules are quite simple: Normal vehicles, Cruising speed means Snap Fire, Snap Firing Ordnance is not allowed for Blast weapons. Fast vehicles, Cruising speed means Normal BS Fire, Ordnance fires as normal It's very simple. So simple that I have no idea what we are arguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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