Australian forum thinks Fast Vindis can't move 12" and shoot

[Adeptus]

It's very simple.  So simple that I have no idea what we are arguing.

 

 

You're right, it is very simple.

 

Has the vehicle moved at cruising speed?

 

If yes, then any ordnance weapons it has may only be fired as snap shots.

 

End of story, really. Firing at full BS doesn't over-ride the limitation of the Ordnance rules. All it lets you do is fire weapons at full BS.

 

Again, who would this limitation apply to, if not fast vehicles? They are, after all, the ONLY vehicles (flyers excepted) that can fire Ordnance after moving at cruising speed. If a limitation build in to specifically limit Ordnance being fired after moving at cruising speed doesn't apply to the only units that can fire Ordnance after moving at cruising speed, then who does it apply to?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Urgh. Sometimes I hate my country. Comp like this rears its head from time to time. I though that phase in the community had passed. Now I'm reminded why I don't go to tourneys here. 

 

Reading is hard. Also, from a wider standpoint, who actually loses? Xenos still couldn't care less, they beat BA easily. 

[appiah4]

 

It's very simple.  So simple that I have no idea what we are arguing.

 

 

You're right, it is very simple.

 

Has the vehicle moved at cruising speed?

 

If yes, then any ordnance weapons it has may only be fired as snap shots.

 

End of story, really. Firing at full BS doesn't over-ride the limitation of the Ordnance rules. All it lets you do is fire weapons at full BS.

 

Again, who would this limitation apply to, if not fast vehicles? They are, after all, the ONLY vehicles (flyers excepted) that can fire Ordnance after moving at cruising speed. If a limitation build in to specifically limit Ordnance being fired after moving at cruising speed doesn't apply to the only units that can fire Ordnance after moving at cruising speed, then who does it apply to?

 

 

Bold 1: Wrong; once again you are purposefully ignoring that the vehicle is Fast.  The question that needs to be asked is "Has this Vehicle with the Fast rule moved at Cruising Speed?"  The answer is Yes, then you ask "What can this Vehicle with the Fast rule do?".  The answer is fire up to two weapons at Normal BS.  You then Fire (NOT Snap Fire) your Demolisher Cannon, then Snap Fire your Storm Bolter.

 

Bold 2: Again, wrong.  I'm sure there are a lot of Non-Blast Ordnance vehicles in the game the rule would apply to.  Leman Russ variants like Battle Tank and Vanquisher come to mind.

[Jolemai]

Our Whirlwinds are in the same boat. This TO would rule that we can't move them 6-12" and fire them.

[GrunTeufel]

Can't we mail GW so this stupid discussion can end once and for all? I don't get what is so hard to get about this. And I don't even have any vindicators.

[Adeptus]

It doesn't matter if the vehicle is fast or not, since firing Ordnance at full BS is specifically forbidden by the Ordnance rules. Specifically. Forbidden.

 

These rules will never apply to a Leman Russ, since they are all Heavy and so can never move faster than combat speed! Only Fast Vehicles and Fliers can move at cruising speed and fire Ordnance, and they both have 'fire at full bs' rules. So who is the rule meant for? Who can move at cruising speed and still shoot? Why have this rule if it applies to nobody?

[appiah4]

It doesn't matter if the vehicle is fast or not, since firing Ordnance at full BS is specifically forbidden by the Ordnance rules. Specifically. Forbidden.

 

These rules will never apply to a Leman Russ, since they are all Heavy and so can never move faster than combat speed! Only Fast Vehicles and Fliers can move at cruising speed and fire Ordnance, and they both have 'fire at full bs' rules. So who is the rule meant for? Who can move at cruising speed and still shoot? Why have this rule if it applies to nobody?

 

You keep making your rules up and changing arguments.  First it was that Ordnance can't be fired at Cruise Speed in any way other than Snap Firing (debunked), then you conceded specific exemptions (Fast was noted as one), then it was that if the rules were not for Fast Vindicators what were they for (debunked, because they are at least meant for Normal Vindicatos), now it's that Ordnance rules forbid firing at full BS. 

 

Please, before you go on making up more imaginary rules, quote page numbers for this.  Because, just as before, you are wrong.  There is no rule that says Ordnance CAN NOT be fired at full BS at Cruising, rules state that:

 

1. A vehicle that moved at cruising speed can STILL snap fire - that does not preclude situations where cruising does not take away your option of firing at Normal BS, it just gives you an alternative for the situations where Crusing Speed would take that option away

2. Fast vehicles at cruising speed can fire at Normal BS, ergo they do not need to fall back to the rule in (1)

 

Going by your un-logic Relentless models would not be able to assault after Rapid Firing because assaulting is specifically forbidden by Rapid Fire rules.  Yet, they can because Relentless overrides normal Rapid Firing rules.  Explain me that if you will.

 

In the same vein, Fast rules override normal Ordnance Firing rules.  You are just grasping at straws.

[Jolemai]

It doesn't matter if the vehicle is fast or not, since firing Ordnance at full BS is specifically forbidden by the Ordnance rules. Specifically. Forbidden.

 

These rules will never apply to a Leman Russ, since they are all Heavy and so can never move faster than combat speed! Only Fast Vehicles and Fliers can move at cruising speed and fire Ordnance, and they both have 'fire at full bs' rules. So who is the rule meant for? Who can move at cruising speed and still shoot? Why have this rule if it applies to nobody?

 

*and Super Heavies.

[Jolemai]

Anyway, I this should now be heading for the OR boards...

[Adeptus]

 

 

You keep making your rules up.

 

Going by your un-logic Relentless models would not be able to assault after Rapid Firing because assaulting is specifically forbidden by Rapid Fire rules.  Yet, they can because Relentless overrides normal Rapid Firing rules.  Explain me that if you will.

 

In the same vein, Fast rules override normal Ordnance Firing rules.  You are just gasping at straws.

The relentless rule specifically mentions that models can assault after rapid firing. The fast rules DO NOT specifically allow Ordnance to be fired after moving at cruising speed. This is a specific rule worded s specific way, and requies a specific exemption. It's very black and white. Without a specific exemption, Ordnance can only ever be snap fired after moving at cruising speed

[appiah4]

 

You keep making your rules up.

 

Going by your un-logic Relentless models would not be able to assault after Rapid Firing because assaulting is specifically forbidden by Rapid Fire rules.  Yet, they can because Relentless overrides normal Rapid Firing rules.  Explain me that if you will.

 

In the same vein, Fast rules override normal Ordnance Firing rules.  You are just gasping at straws.

The relentless rule specifically mentions that models can assault after rapid firing. The fast rules DO NOT specifically allow Ordnance to be fired after moving at cruising speed. This is a specific rule worded s specific way, and requies a specific exemption. It's very black and white. Without a specific exemption, Ordnance can only ever be snap fired after moving at cruising speed

 

 

Actually, Fast rules DO specifically allow for firing ANY weapon at Normal BS after moving at Cruising - your argument is as stupid as saying Relentless models can't assault when armed with Bolters because the rule does not specify them and the normal Bolter profile (Rapid Fire) forbids assaulting after firing, and rules for Rapid Firing supersede the Relentless USR.  It's just all around illogical, but if you feel like keeping on arguing it, let's go ahead.

[toaae]

The confusion seems to stem from the fact that no one looked up the ordnance rule itself. It states (page 41) that non vehicles may not fire ordnance after moving; ordnance cannot be snap shot. Hence the rule in the vehicle section. It is reminding you that the thing about ordnance snap shotting applies to non vehicles.

 

No where does the rule state that ordnance may only be snap shot at cruising speed. It's reiterating that ordnance can be snap shot, and then makes sure that blast/template weapons aren't given an exception against normal snap shot rules.

 

But the real crux of the issue is that people are reading "may be fired as snap shots" as "MUST be..." which simply isn't the way it's worded.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

This sounds like the Thunder Wolves Strength Argument all over again. (its strength 9 BTW) ;)

 

Vindicators can Fire Ord when moving 6-12 inches.

The fast rule makes this obvious and straight forwards as the unit type is changed to fast by the BA rules for the tank, if it did not there would be no point in the rule for this tank.

[ContemptuousAngel]

This sounds like the Thunder Wolves Strength Argument all over again. (its strength 9 BTW)

Vindicators can Fire Ord when moving 6-12 inches.

The fast rule makes this obvious and straight forwards as the unit type is changed to fast by the BA rules for the tank, if it did not there would be no point in the rule for this tank.

This. Why is this so hard to understand?????

[Fahlnor]

Hmmmmm. Honestly wondering if a new breed of wild internet troll has appeared.

 

How is this even a conversation? And more worryingly, how did it ever make it to two pages?!

[Dusktiger]

It doesn't matter if the vehicle is fast or not, since firing Ordnance at full BS is specifically forbidden by the Ordnance rules. Specifically. Forbidden.

 

These rules will never apply to a Leman Russ, since they are all Heavy and so can never move faster than combat speed! Only Fast Vehicles and Fliers can move at cruising speed and fire Ordnance, and they both have 'fire at full bs' rules. So who is the rule meant for? Who can move at cruising speed and still shoot? Why have this rule if it applies to nobody?

 

Adeptus.  You are repeatedly counter-arguing yourself here, and i do not know if this is because you are confusing yourself, or not grasping what the other frater have been explaining to you, with the use of page references to rules that further detail what they are getting across to you.  Please take a moment to stop trolling the issue and look at what you yourself just wrote, which i have bolded and underlined in red.

 

In any space marine codex, except the blood angels one, you are correct in your argument that the Vindicator's Demolisher Cannon would not fire after moving 6-12", as they are type: Vehicle, Tank. However, Blood Angels can upgrade their Vindicators to type: Vehicle, Tank, Fast by purchasing Overcharged Engines.  In which case, the exception that you yourself just admitted exists, would take into effect, allowing the it to fire Ordnance after moving 6-12". 

 

Now. Everyone stop trolling over this issue and increasing the tension level in this thread over the subject, or this issue will be brought to the relevant moderators to discuss what to do about causing in-thread arguments amongst the frater.  Keep it civil.

 

edit: my writing isnt the neatest, but here's a flow chart of how the demolisher cannon works between a normal vindicator (left) and a blood angels vindicator(right) that has purchased Overcharged Engines:

[Vettanker]

Not that I agree with the can't fire at cruising speed crowd, but I can see now where the confusion is coming from. Taking a look at overwatch, raising a model's BS in a given situation doesn't remove the stipulation that it's weapons be snap fired. If you're convinced that Ordnance must be fired as snap shots then the argument that the Demolisher cannon can't be fired at cruising speed regardless of Fast designation is a logical one. Can be fired as snap shots vs must be fired as snap shots is what this entire situation hinges on.

[Xenith]

Dear lord.

 

The wording is:

 

"Ordnance weapons cannot fire snap shots"

 

That is perfectly fine, as it is not firing the weapon as a snap shot...

[JamesI]

At this point I think this discussion should probably occur in the Official Rules forum to get more eyes on it.  While I completely agree with all the other BA posters who say fast vindicators can fire as normal, it would probably help to send it over there where some non-BA posters might jump in.

[Dam13n]

You can send it our way (the OR) if you like, but the answer is obvious. A fast vehicle can move 12" and then fire an Ordnance weapon at full BS (provided it isn't firing snap shots due to another reason (like crew shaken / stunned) or attempts to shoot another weapon at full BS first).  This is because the Fast Vehicle shooting rules over-ride the standard rules for determining the number of weapons that a vehicle can shoot at full BS with respect to that vehicles movement.

References: page 88 of the rulebook (Fast Vehicles) and page 201 ("How many weapons may a vehicle fire at full BS").

[Xenith]

At this point I think this discussion should probably occur in the Official Rules forum to get more eyes on it.  While I completely agree with all the other BA posters who say fast vindicators can fire as normal, it would probably help to send it over there where some non-BA posters might jump in.

I wouldn't really call it a discussion. More some people not understanding the interaction between rules, and them being corrected on it.

 

Any more posts on this and it becomes a lecture!

[Brother Raul]

Being Australian i found that thread hilarious, glad this was brought to my attention as i thought its was only 6".

[Xenith]

Being Australian i found that thread hilarious, glad this was brought to my attention as i thought its was only 6".

For normal vindicators, yes, but Blood Angels vindicators are not normal vindicators.

 

I'm wondering where the breakdown in reading was?

[Dusktiger]

Dear lord.

 

The wording is:

 

"Ordnance weapons cannot fire snap shots"

 

That is perfectly fine, as it is not firing the weapon as a snap shot...

 

just to clarify Xenith, it's not the Ordnance type that cannot fire snap shots.  Ordnance, in fact, can snap fire.  its the fact that a Demolisher Cannon is an Ordnance 1, Large Blast that makes it unable to snap fire. 

 

you see, there are Ordnance weapons that can snap fire;

Laser Destroyer - Ordnance 1, Twin-linked

Neutron Laser Beam - Ordnance 2, Concussive, Shock Pulse

 

and then there is those that cannot:

Battle Cannon - Ordnance 1, Large Blast

Demolisher Cannon, Ordnance 1, Large Blast

Missile Silo - Ordnance 1, Barrage, Large Blast

Missile Silo with Krakstorm Missiles- Ordnance 1, Barrage, Large Blast

Fellblade Accelerator Cannon - Ordnance 1, Massive Blast

Whirlwind Launchers (both missile types) - Ordnance 1, Barrage, Large Blast

 

those are just some examples of Ordnance that i'm aware of.

 

Now, before anyone jumps to hit reply; yes, there's a couple in there that could still fire; that's because they are mounted on a vehicle that has a special rule, or is a vehicle type, that allows it to fire after moving certain distances. 

 

Don't let yourself be confused in what the difference between Ordnance and Blast do when snap firing.  Ordnance can do it, Blast cannot.  the problem is people are so used to seeing both types come hand in hand, that they often get the wrong idea and think its Ordnance that can't snap fire.   Which it can.  Most don't realize this, however, because they rarely interact with Forgeworld expansion units, which happen to be where most of the non-blast Ordnance weapons exist.

 

If we were discussing a Whirlwind that purchased the Overcharged Engines upgrade, (which they can), then the result is the same; they can move 6-12" and fire their 5" blast weapon.  and if that's all your opponent is facing, he probably would acknowledge this immediately and agree.  afterall, who cares about a STR 5 or STR 4 blast.  However, this argument tends to arise from opponents who don't want to see 3 STR 10 AP 1 5" blasts with a 36" threat range.  Which is asinine; what does it matter if it's a 30" or 36" range; unless you're playing Hammer and Anvil deployment, he's still going to hit you on turn 1.  That's just nitpicking with a false assumption of how the vehicle's rules work in order to spoil your opponent's turn to drop 3 pie plates on your infantry because you didn't properly plan out your deployment for it.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

That is a good point and to be honest I normally mistake Ordnance for blast and I play tournaments a fair bit.

Then again new editions always complicate things and we are only in the infancy of 7th so these things still crop up and will for some time to come.