kaz'sax Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 How do you think CSM should be improved upon if we're lucky to get an updated 7th book? I am personally unable to pin point its weaknesses but can feel the strength is certainly lacking. Ia13 has indeed made them more playable but none the less get destroyed to the likes of tau, eldar and gk's. So what would you include/remove for the next book? I'd think give stubborn for all marines (instead of atsknf) 1Hatred on champions to show they wish to prove themselves to the gods 2 fleshmetal armour upgrade for has 3 some sort of chaos ranged weapon? Maybe warp flamer or something along those lines? 4 reduce base cost of marines by a point 5 daemon prince becomes t6 like other MCs, seems stupid that ours is far inferior and can be insta killed by rail heads, demolisher's and s10 p fists while all the rest survive. 6 kinda like dwarfs be able to make your own daemon weapon with upgrades? For varied prices of course That's what I can think of off the top of my head, what you think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Formations, FOCs or a Decurion like Detachment (maybe even designed with each kind of Warband in mind based on Legion, Undivided or Renegade) and more options for everything (anyone else want to see AP3 Heavy Bolters on Thousand Sons?). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Hi kaz'sax and welcome to the Chaos boards. If you have a bit of a scroll through a few pages you're likely to come across multiple topics along similar very lines. Please feel free to continue this discussion but keep if friendly, courteous, and on topic. Thank you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pariah Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 How do you think CSM should be improved upon if we're lucky to get an updated 7th book? I am personally unable to pin point its weaknesses but can feel the strength is certainly lacking. Ia13 has indeed made them more playable but none the less get destroyed to the likes of tau, eldar and gk's. So what would you include/remove for the next book? I'd think give stubborn for all marines (instead of atsknf) 1Hatred on champions to show they wish to prove themselves to the gods 2 fleshmetal armour upgrade for has 3 some sort of chaos ranged weapon? Maybe warp flamer or something along those lines? 4 reduce base cost of marines by a point 5 daemon prince becomes t6 like other MCs, seems stupid that ours is far inferior and can be insta killed by rail heads, demolisher's and s10 p fists while all the rest survive. 6 kinda like dwarfs be able to make your own daemon weapon with upgrades? For varied prices of course That's what I can think of off the top of my head, what you think? Welcome to the shadows, fellow newcomer... the current CSM codex was made at the very start of 6th where 'charge' was used as a byword.. now not so much. not too long ago, we made a list but it followed something like this. Changing of the marks.. They were once good but now a tad unbalanced... Legion tactics, akin to our loyalist brethren, each legion is unique... I am told that this was a thing in previous codecs and with the newer formats, perhaps we will see new legion detachments? thoughts.. Some divide between legion and renegades... a no brainier but still a change/ cheaper redundant units.. mutilators, warp talons and a few others are simply too expensive for their uses... Oblits could have extra stuff for 70pts per. Chosen need to be stern guard and vanguard vets both.. perhaps a option to choose between them but an extra attack is not that special to justify an extra 5pts banners could be cheaper... Loyalist vehicles and weapons (for the 'renegade' detachment) as it would not make sense for a chapter to drop everything of value. apart from the occasional point reduction, the HQ section doesn't really need any changes... maybe the relics and upgrades? Bringing the currant supplements (crimson slaughter, black legion) and data slates (be'lakor and such) into the codex for a fresh start. a better boon table or have it so that you roll on it if you kill a unit... And better psychic powers... just say'n It's also worth while to note that the 6th ed codex was written by Phil kelly whose mastery of balance was not the best (*cough* eldar *cough*) and now the books are made by the team as a whole. Secondly, chaos is thought of as the bad guy and thus must lose.. as a fellow denizen of damnation, you can see how stupid this notion is but given people's opinion of the factions come from the video games... yeah chaos got the short end of the stick. there is now three chaos armies; Daemons, renegades and heretics, and chaos marines.. and marines are the weakest by far, however, we are the next in line to get an update, so cultist chant relentlessly for a good codex but the gods are fickle things.. so hope for the best, expect the worst. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 It's also worth while to note that the 6th ed codex was written by Phil kelly whose mastery of balance was not the best (*cough* eldar *cough*) and now the books are made by the team as a whole. Secondly, chaos is thought of as the bad guy and thus must lose.. as a fellow denizen of damnation, you can see how stupid this notion is but given people's opinion of the factions come from the video games... yeah chaos got the short end of the stick. there is now three chaos armies; Daemons, renegades and heretics, and chaos marines.. and marines are the weakest by far, however, we are the next in line to get an update, so cultist chant relentlessly for a good codex but the gods are fickle things.. so hope for the best, expect the worst. Did Kelly do all of the Eldar codices? Probably, because there hasn't been an edition where people haven't complained about Eldar being broken, or where there hasn't been at least 1 strong list. Dom't hate on the Wave Serpents. I don't think the 3.5 Dex was that bad when it's best lists were compared to other top lists (Sure they should have been toned down, but you can always say that about the best lists), and the rest of the lists were moderate to good without being game breaking. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I think that really the only update we need is a new kit for our PA infantry, be it cult troops or generic chaos space marines. Said that if there is a thing I have learned from reading the new Necron codex is that if we get a Decurion detachment we should be prepared to have a substantial hobby budget ready. The Decurion is a massive sink for models of all kind and the formations are really getting big. Aside the above we should see how the meta evolves. Our book was a "bridge" book hence its many faults but it is still playable. What I expect is a general decrease of point costs across the book and a remake of our army rules. Individual units will get the attention similar to the one in the recent books, everything will become streamlined and bland, requiring formations and maybe even the Decurion to work properly. A list of updates that I would like to see: - Thousand Sons Here, this is my list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 There are so many bits of trim and random spikes that could do with toning down - archaic and baroque often just gets excessive. I prefer eminently paintable! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
marful Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 the current CSM codex was made at the very start of 6th where 'charge' was used as a byword.. now not so much.not too long ago, we made a list but it followed something like this. Changing of the marks.. They were once good but now a tad unbalanced... Legion tactics, akin to our loyalist brethren, each legion is unique... I am told that this was a thing in previous codecs and with the newer formats, perhaps we will see new legion detachments? thoughts.. Some divide between legion and renegades... a no brainier but still a change/ cheaper redundant units.. mutilators, warp talons and a few others are simply too expensive for their uses... Oblits could have extra stuff for 70pts per. Chosen need to be stern guard and vanguard vets both.. perhaps a option to choose between them but an extra attack is not that special to justify an extra 5pts banners could be cheaper... Loyalist vehicles and weapons (for the 'renegade' detachment) as it would not make sense for a chapter to drop everything of value. apart from the occasional point reduction, the HQ section doesn't really need any changes... maybe the relics and upgrades? Bringing the currant supplements (crimson slaughter, black legion) and data slates (be'lakor and such) into the codex for a fresh start. a better boon table or have it so that you roll on it if you kill a unit... And better psychic powers... just say'n It's also worth while to note that the 6th ed codex was written by Phil kelly whose mastery of balance was not the best (*cough* eldar *cough*) and now the books are made by the team as a whole. Secondly, chaos is thought of as the bad guy and thus must lose.. as a fellow denizen of damnation, you can see how stupid this notion is but given people's opinion of the factions come from the video games... yeah chaos got the short end of the stick. there is now three chaos armies; Daemons, renegades and heretics, and chaos marines.. and marines are the weakest by far, however, we are the next in line to get an update, so cultist chant relentlessly for a good codex but the gods are fickle things.. so hope for the best, expect the worst. Pretty much nailed it. As you said, there is a lot of over priced redundancy in the CSM codex. Some of the chaos marks are completely worthless for the points, while others are amazing. Other things have no parity with their Astartes counter parts. I'm not asking for exactly what astartes forces get but just parity. A prime example is the obliterator. 70* (corrected, thanks Xenith!) points for a T4 model, 2 wounds, 2+/5++ vs. a Centurion costs the same, yet is T5, can fire two weapons and has AMAZING weapon options. So you have a T4 model with 2 wounds but a 5++ invul, vs, T5 on a model that has some of the best weapons avaiable in the game... Another issue CSM has is dealing with flyers. The Heldrake is it. Marines have like 5 anti-air options. Also CSM doesn't have a single infiltrating unit, outside of a warlord trate and a Special Charachter (Which effectly always has that one warlord trait). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 A prime example is the obliterator. 60 points for a T4 model, 2 wounds, 2+/5++ vs. a Centurion costs the same, yet is T5, can fire two weapons and has AMAZING weapon options. So you have a T4 model with 2 wounds but a 5++ invul, vs, T5 on a model that has some of the best weapons avaiable in the game... 70pts, you mean. Obbs and Muties need to go back to S5 T5 basic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagrath Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I posted a thread about this a few weeks ago that went on for a number of pages of suggestions... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Yes. These pop up every week or so, and it's the same thing over and over again. Maybe we could have a: "Before you make a post about improving the Chaos Codex, please read this..." sticky, and link all of the previous threads, so we dont have to hash the same stuff over and over again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Yes. These pop up every week or so, and it's the same thing over and over again. Maybe we could have a: "Before you make a post about improving the Chaos Codex, please read this..." sticky, and link all of the previous threads, so we dont have to hash the same stuff over and over again. Not going to waste a pinned post doing that but I could group a few together in the Resources thread. End of the day, these topics are more a wish list. Though if anything that could be worked on as an almost B&C suppliment or campaign which would create interesting games with friends (and not just an attempt to increase the Chaos power level) then that could be of interest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 We don't have enough hats. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pariah Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Well, necrons are over and done with... Chaos is the most likely to be updated next.. just saying Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 It'd be us or Dark Angels, really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Well, necrons are over and done with... Chaos is the most likely to be updated next.. just saying Currently Harlequins and a rumoured Codex for a new Imperial Marine Chapter. Are rumours about something Chaos this year but I'd wait till more concrete info before getting excited of developing feelings of dissent. Make the most of what we currently have (Codex, two suppliments, FW IA13, and allies). Try not to get hung up on rumours and "what ifs" because you'll just end up frustrated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Skull Mask Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Thing that has to change before all others imo is: The Champion of Chaos rule must go. Even with challenges changed it is such a big disadvantage, and you are forced to bring the champions. Next is the boon table that needs to be made into buyable upgrades while part of it should be dropped. Next: vet skills... Next: reduced point costs for CSM, banners, daemon princes, stuff Think the first two are really really most important, then the last named things - but vet skills would really make me a happy bugger. Well, you never should give up hope Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3941821 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 That's a hilarious rumor that they want to resurrect an older, index astartes Chapter that's about as significant as the Violators or Sons of Malice. A supplement is plausible (what could they release?), but a codex? About as useful as tits on a jellyfish, or any of the Chaos rumors and thousand wishlist topics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3942086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Ravensong Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 That's a hilarious rumor that they want to resurrect an older, index astartes Chapter that's about as significant as the Violators or Sons of Malice. A supplement is plausible (what could they release?), but a codex? About as useful as tits on a jellyfish, or any of the Chaos rumors and thousand wishlist topics. To be fair, tits on a jellyfish would do wonders for thinning out the chaff from the human population. That and other wish listing aside, some of the rumors I've seen floating around (cult troops removed from codex and instead as Dataslates) are pretty aberrant to say the least, especially since most of the Chaos players in my area are playing specific legions and run pretty heavy on cult troops. I haven't had the chance to play much recently so it's difficult for me to point to precisely what needs to be changed in our dex to bring it in line with the others... but I think the only thing we need to change on our codex is to make the serpent shields 8" range and necrons need to not be biting on my 4+FNP swag (hey guys, that's so 5th ed). I think that'd solve a lot of problems... and stop a lot of my griping. I'd like to see some exciting upgrades and options that would let us be more flexible with what we have, because I'm having a difficult time dealing with opponents I used to table without having to ally in demons or bring FW (not that anything's wrong with FW or allying, I'd just prefer it to not feel required to look outside my own codex to deal with new threats) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3942127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 You know how to deal with opponents? Don't use a net list. Find other combinations of equipment, and use units to support each other. Use different tactics. Play to the objective and win on VP. Spread your points around rather than using a point sink Deathstar that gets taken out leaving you with crumbs to use. Use cover. Don't play with all the terrain on the edges of the table. Don't let your opponent set all the tarrain up. More importantly, don't get hung up on rules and power creap. Yes it may feel like you may be playing chess and your opponent has ten Queens but try to have fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3942149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 May is not subjective. If you're often imbalanced and you find that tactics and composition don't work, move on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3942151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopkins Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Khorne daemons in March from End Times: Archaon, and that'll be our lot, even if they badge it as a dual CSM/CD supplement To be fair, I'm looking forward to trying out more things from IA13, and maybe bringing the daemon summoning party for extra fun So still plenty of avenues to explore Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3942154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheesh Mode Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Right now I am playtesting a noise marine army with IA13 rapiers as support for an upcoming Highlander tournament. At the moment the sheer level of high strength, low ap templates the army can unleash is impressive. At this point it is my opinion that Chaos Marines have the best ranged troops in the game, and that the Blast Master is the best ranged infantry weapon in our codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3943231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Marshal Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 That's a hilarious rumor that they want to resurrect an older, index astartes Chapter that's about as significant as the Violators or Sons of Malice. A supplement is plausible (what could they release?), but a codex? About as useful as tits on a jellyfish, or any of the Chaos rumors and thousand wishlist topics. Well, as we all know Loyalist Marine 'dexes sell like hotcakes. Nothing like yet another Imperial army to remind us who daddy's favourite is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3943394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 My Chaos armies do pretty good. Against 5th style armies, they are equal. Against the Highrider Killteam armies (Knights, Ironhand Chaptermasters etc) they really struggle. It's funny, because if I had enough Rhinos, I could potentially adapt my Tau tactics with my CSMs. Troops would be 5 man Bolter marines, with 3x5 Special Weapon havocks, repeated as many times as I could for the points limit and just put EVERYTHING in rhinos, but if I wanted to adapt my Tau tactics...it'd be easier (and far cheaper) to just play my Tau, which will beat most armies unless I'm running Gundam Wing (The Glorious ALL BATTLESUIT ARMY) or The Eight-which if I'm playing The Eight I'll probably lose. I wanted an army that could fare better at Close combat (more consistently) than my tau-and in that regard I'm pleased. I'd like them to be as good at Close combat as tau are in shooting (Well my Beserker army at least, lol), but that's sort of a pipe dream. I can get them to grips with the enemy currently, and really that's enough for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303067-what-needs-to-be-updated-to-bring-csm-in-line-with-others/#findComment-3943453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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