Lone Wolves

[tylerw]

So if his lord and the WG hr was deployed with died... like, I'm not trying to say you can't view it how you want, but it doesn't hold up to much critical thinking. And saying, "well Ragnar books are old," while relying on the old codex, and ignoring the new Njal book where

 

SPOILERS

 

 

 

A WG pack were insubordinate and disobeyed Njal because of a pack member makes it less logical and more your view of the fluff.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Old codex nothing (assuming you are referring to my post). The only examples I used were from BL books, namely the Ragnar series and Battle for the Fang. I included the age of the Ragnar books simply because they are very old, and so I have found that reminder can be useful as an explanation for fluff inconsistencies, it's something of a reflex.

 

If you want a modern codex reference (times like this I really hate the reduced fluff space in the unit entries of modern dexes):

"Every pack slowly diminishes in size as the centuries of war take their inevitable toll on their fighting strength, though they continue to fight as Grey Hunters and later as Long Fangs in their reduced capacity. Sometimes, though, a pack suffers such terrible losses that it is reduced to a single survivor; one who has lost his brothers to a man. One who has no pack. One with nothing left to him but to seek bloody vengeance on those who claimed the lives of his kinsmen - a Lone Wolf"

 

While it's not 100% definitive, that passage refers to Lone Wolves resulting from extreme losses which break the normal SW pack progression, resulting in a single survivor, so LWs come from the ranks of regular packs. This is unlike the Wolf Guard, which as a picked body of special recruits, would always be fluctuating in number as old warriors die and new recruits are added thanks to their acts of valour, and have no specific pack structure within their brotherhood. To use an example from CoF, Volkbad Wulfentongue is said to have earned himself a small following in the WG, often leads a squad of Hammer/Shield Terminators. Therefore it seems reasonable to assume that he doesn't always lead this pack within the body of the WG, if Logan requires him to lead a different WG group (CoF also has him lead Void Claws instead of Sheidbrothers) or to lead a regualr BC/GH pack. Therefore it would be somewhat strange if the standard 'last of my pack' thing applied, especially as the fluff also has Arjac repeatedly be the only survivor of a pack of Logan's WG, and yet no shame/dishonour/going crazy there.

 

Why do you claim that Hakon is described as a Lone Wolf? Merely being the last survivor of your pack (which in the Ragnar books means your initiate intake) does not equal being a LW (otherwise Ulrik the Slayer would be a LW, probably Logan as well).

 

You asked "If you are a WG who leads GH, BC, or LF, you think you won't lose your mind when the rest of the pack is wiped out?", to which I gave the example of Trossek, who did lose his pack, did briefly go off the deep end, and was left with scars that didn't really have time to play out thanks to the events of the story. However, he did not go LW deathseeker, as much as he would've liked to, because he was WG, he had command responsibilities which were of greater significance than his personal desire for absolution in death. If he had survived, he would have been expected to rebuild the Company, not go gallivanting off after a big monster to throw himself at. This contrasts with Redpelt, who had the classic LW set up, last of his pack etc. It's inferred that he has gone somewhat round the bend, and yet it is not certain yet that he will take the Lone Wolf route, as a BC he still gets that luxury of choice.

 

I'm sorry, I haven't read Stormcaller, and from your brief summary I don't actually understand how it relates to LWs and WG.

 

All that said, is it impossible for a WG to become a LW? Probably not, because very little in 40k fluff is impossible (simultaneously being one of the most irritating and interesting things about the 40k universe). However, I'd say the fluff paints a pretty clear picture that the vast, vast majority of Lone Wolves do not come from the ranks of the Wolf Guard.

[tylerw]

Welp, being the last survivor of a gh, bc, or LF pack could easily be a wgn so that quote seems to strengthen the for argument as much as the against. hakon was described at some point as being torn between his duty to the wolves and tearing off to seek death. Seems like he either was a lw, or was a member of another pack who was wiped out and was put in command of the BCs... which would pretty easily account for a WG LW.

 

Similarly you attempt to handwave duty in as a way that wg would resist the lw urge, however the WG in the Njal book blew off their duty for a living pack member. You think the last pack member wouldn't do that at times?

 

Finally, read the description of the WG who served Ragnar old wolf lord. They are friends, companions, and packmates. they have as much emotional connection to their WL as a GH pack, and maybe more as they may have been with him for hundreds of years.

[blackoption]

In storm caller, the pack is lead by a Wolf Guard, but the pack isn't wolf guard.

[Stoic Raptor]

Another thing to consider - each individual member of the Wolf Guard has their own, individual "pack marking" - it is typically a yellow-and-black version of the heraldry of the pack they were in before being selected to the Wolf Guard.  If Wolf Guard had "packs", wouldn't they share a marking?  But the new Codex and the new painting guide show that they don't. 

 

I think the difficulty arises when some people consider the Wolf Guard as just some Elite soldiers, and not as the bodyguard of the Wolf Lord (that's why they are called that).  The new codex specifically refers to them as huscarls, and anyone who understands Norse history knows a huscarl's role and obligations. Their purpose is to protect the Wolf Lord and to carry out his commands.  They act on his authority alone and are accountable only to him.  This is not something that's changed just because there's a new edition of the game rules. 

 

Their lives belong to their Lord and so I cannot see why one would just be allowed to throw it away.  Anyone who's worthy of the Wolf Guard isn't going to be the kind of screw-up who'd botch something beyond redemption.  Even Space Wolves die eventually - and the longer one lives, the more likely he'll be the last of his pack.  But not all of them choose to be a deathseeker.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Do the WG leaders of GH/BC packs count as members of the pack? If you answer yes is that because the pack leaders are separate from WG squads? If so which are the 'true' WG? If joining the WG gives a Marine a new pack identity (as you have claimed in this thread), then a WGPL can't be the last survivor of a BC/GH pack.

Or Hakon was promoted to WG, and simply survived longer than his peers (meaning either his old GH packmates, or his contemporaries in the WG, your choice), leaving him with some survivors guilt. And yet Hakon doesn't go off chasing death, he does his duty and commands his pack until he dies performing that duty.

You claim I am handwaving duty overriding LW desire, yet I have cited multiple examples of exactly that happening in the fluff.

Also, you seem to be glossing over one part of the Codex fluff I quoted "One with nothing left to him but to seek bloody vengeance", that is a position a WG will struggle to get in, because his status means he has other, more important roles in the Company than the single minded pursuit of vengeance.

As for this event in Stormcaller, I'd say it is a false equivalence, breaking orders to save (I assume) a living brother is not the same as forsaking duty due to grief. The former, though insubordinate, is essentially a selfless act, whereas the later is fundamentally selfish.

Some hypothetical questions for you:

Great Company A is deployed to campaign X. At the campaign outset it contains say a score of WG assigned to lead GH/BC/LF packs, and a dozen or so WG left over, who fight as 2 6 man units based on WL decisions and personal preference. How to you judge a WG as being 'last of his pack'?

Example 1- One of the WG packs in badly mauled in an engagement, losing 5 of it's men. Does that last WG count as 'last of his pack', even though more than 2 dozen other WG are still alive and kicking?

Example 2- At the campaign's finale a major fight takes place, with massive casualties on both sides, resulting in all but one of the WG dying (the Lord lives), but a bunch of GHs distinguish themselves and are promoted. Now the veteran WG isn't the last WG. Should he be expected to go LW, even though he's no longer the 'last' of his pack? That seems pretty dickish to me 'oh hi new guys, sorry, you're not my WG brothers, so I'm going to off seeking death'

I hope these hypothetical illustrate why the 'last of his pack' idea doesn't really gel with either the varied functions of WG, or their dynamic number fluctuations.

[Wolf Lord Loki]

There may be occasions where a wolf guard needs to strike out alone to rebuild his confidence. However not all lone wolves could be doing that!

 

The last codex mentions that most lone wolves die at the hands of a monster somewhere, lost and alone. Would you really send one of your precious and Rare suits of terminator armour of in the hands of someone whom you may never find his body?

While.the ragnar books might not be most cannon now he describes terminator armour as the greatest honour a wolf lord can bestow on a wolf guard.

They are rare, they improve your fighting ability when you are trained to use them (terminator honours? Anyone remember those?) and they are a very visible sign of favour.

 

"You sir have a death wish. Very noble. Have a suit of the best armour we used to be able to make that should protect you from the worth death has to offer! Also here is my private armoury help yourself! Oh and would you like the keys to the battle barge? It would save sir from having to walk????"

[Stoic Raptor]

Getting killed by a monster doesn't necessarily mean the suit is lost - most of the time, this happens during a battle.

Also, don't Terminator suits have a teleport homer in them? (Isn't that how thye Deep Strike?)  So if/when the wearer is killed, the body and suit could be retrieved.

[NightHowler]

Arguing about 40k fluff is a lot like arguing about whether or not that cute girl in your high school class that you never talked to might have liked you.  You may have a lot of evidence for or against, but you'll never know for sure.  

 

I think, from reading everyone's comments that the general consensus is that it's possible that a LW could be from the WG.  What we disagree on is how likely it is, and since 'how likely' is a nebulous area to begin with we're unlikely to agree.

 

Nevertheless, situations where I think it would be most likely for a WG to become a LW are any time an entire pack of WG are wiped out to a man - think of a group of voidclaws who have been fighting together for hundreds of years sent to form a beachhead on a spacehulk and torn to pieces with a lone survivor.  These aren't some stupid bloodclaws that he just met, or some elderly long fangs with one foot in the old-folks home, these were his 'brothers' he watched get ripped apart.  They knew each other on a deeply personal level, they had nicknames for each other, they had saved each other from both death and dishonor for hundreds of years and in one battle they were all killed except one.

 

Tell me that that lone survivor would just say, "Well, my duty is to protect and serve the Wolf Lord, so I'll just forget this whole thing happened and go lead this bloodclaw pack now."

 

Tell me that the rest of the wolf guard would think, "Yeah, Stormbeard needs to get over it and go lead those bloodclaws.  It's his duty."

 

I think we all agree he'd go nuts and demand a chance for glorious vengeance.  

 

So yeah, I'm totally convinced that the cute girl liked me a lot.  Because, reasons.

[tylerw]

In storm caller, the pack is lead by a Wolf Guard, but the pack isn't wolf guard.

What? I'll try to re-read it, but I'm pretty sure Ragnar went to the newest pack member and told him he was being promoted to WG, not GH or whatever.

[Stoic Raptor]

True enough, NightHowler - but let's not lose sight of the origin of the discussion: the question as to why Lone Wolves have access to Terminator Armor.  I think we can all agree that it's used frequently by Lone Wolves on the tabletop, and that's certainly more frequently than the likelihood of that LW coming from the ranks of the Wolf Guard, no matter how frequently or infrequently that might be.  So there must be a reason why non-WG Lone Wolves are granted access to the armory, and there have been a coule of sensible opinions on that.

 

And there might just be times when a WG who is a lone survivor would be told to "suck up and deal", not by his brethren, but by the Wolf Lord himself, who may not be able to spare his skills and leadership on a quest for vengeance.

 

What? I'll try to re-read it, but I'm pretty sure Ragnar went to the newest pack member and told him he was being promoted to WG, not GH or whatever.

 

 

Do you know what makes Ragnar unique?  it's because he is one of the only Wolf Guard who was never a Grey Hunter.  So I think if he was telling some Blood Claw he was being promoted directly to the Wolf Guard, it would be something to remember. ;)

[tylerw]

There may be occasions where a wolf guard needs to strike out alone to rebuild his confidence. However not all lone wolves could be doing that!

The last codex mentions that most lone wolves die at the hands of a monster somewhere, lost and alone. Would you really send one of your precious and Rare suits of terminator armour of in the hands of someone whom you may never find his body?

While.the ragnar books might not be most cannon now he describes terminator armour as the greatest honour a wolf lord can bestow on a wolf guard.

They are rare, they improve your fighting ability when you are trained to use them (terminator honours? Anyone remember those?) and they are a very visible sign of favour.

"You sir have a death wish. Very noble. Have a suit of the best armour we used to be able to make that should protect you from the worth death has to offer! Also here is my private armoury help yourself! Oh and would you like the keys to the battle barge? It would save sir from having to walk????"

Do the WG leaders of GH/BC packs count as members of the pack? If you answer yes is that because the pack leaders are separate from WG squads? If so which are the 'true' WG? If joining the WG gives a Marine a new pack identity (as you have claimed in this thread), then a WGPL can't be the last survivor of a BC/GH pack.

Or Hakon was promoted to WG, and simply survived longer than his peers (meaning either his old GH packmates, or his contemporaries in the WG, your choice), leaving him with some survivors guilt. And yet Hakon doesn't go off chasing death, he does his duty and commands his pack until he dies performing that duty.

You claim I am handwaving duty overriding LW desire, yet I have cited multiple examples of exactly that happening in the fluff.

Also, you seem to be glossing over one part of the Codex fluff I quoted "One with nothing left to him but to seek bloody vengeance", that is a position a WG will struggle to get in, because his status means he has other, more important roles in the Company than the single minded pursuit of vengeance.

As for this event in Stormcaller, I'd say it is a false equivalence, breaking orders to save (I assume) a living brother is not the same as forsaking duty due to grief. The former, though insubordinate, is essentially a selfless act, whereas the later is fundamentally selfish.

Some hypothetical questions for you:

Great Company A is deployed to campaign X. At the campaign outset it contains say a score of WG assigned to lead GH/BC/LF packs, and a dozen or so WG left over, who fight as 2 6 man units based on WL decisions and personal preference. How to you judge a WG as being 'last of his pack'?

Example 1- One of the WG packs in badly mauled in an engagement, losing 5 of it's men. Does that last WG count as 'last of his pack', even though more than 2 dozen other WG are still alive and kicking?

Example 2- At the campaign's finale a major fight takes place, with massive casualties on both sides, resulting in all but one of the WG dying (the Lord lives), but a bunch of GHs distinguish themselves and are promoted. Now the veteran WG isn't the last WG. Should he be expected to go LW, even though he's no longer the 'last' of his pack? That seems pretty dickish to me 'oh hi new guys, sorry, you're not my WG brothers, so I'm going to off seeking death'

I hope these hypothetical illustrate why the 'last of his pack' idea doesn't really gel with either the varied functions of WG, or their dynamic number fluctuations.

Nope. They just illustrate why you feel that you can't go for it. You try to say that BOTH are true - WG can't be a true pack with GH/BC/whatever, but they also can't go LW b/c new brother will be promoted to WG. Sure, new guys you don't respect, love, honor, whatever, as much as you did all of your pack brothers who were wiped out TOTALLY keep you from going crazy. Uh-huh.

[tylerw]

True enough, NightHowler - but let's not lose sight of the origin of the discussion: the question as to why Lone Wolves have access to Terminator Armor. I think we can all agree that it's used frequently by Lone Wolves on the tabletop, and that's certainly more frequently than the likelihood of that LW coming from the ranks of the Wolf Guard, no matter how frequently or infrequently that might be. So there must be a reason why non-WG Lone Wolves are granted access to the armory, and there have been a coule of sensible opinions on that.

And there might just be times when a WG who is a lone survivor would be told to "suck up and deal", not by his brethren, but by the Wolf Lord himself, who may not be able to spare his skills and leadership on a quest for vengeance.

What? I'll try to re-read it, but I'm pretty sure Ragnar went to the newest pack member and told him he was being promoted to WG, not GH or whatever.

Do you know what makes Ragnar unique? it's because he is one of the only Wolf Guard who was never a Grey Hunter. So I think if he was telling some Blood Claw he was being promoted directly to the Wolf Guard, it would be something to remember.

So that means it was a WG leading his pack who rebelled against Njal? Hmm, seems like that strengthened the argument that a WGPL is close enough to his pack that losing his GH/BC/LF pack would possibly go LW. Thanks for the clarification.

[Stoic Raptor]

Might want to is one thing.  Be allowed to?  Far less likely.  In a pack-oriented society, it's not up to you - it's up to your leader.

 

It sounds like you're basing a lot of your argument on one part of one book, and selectively disregaarding every other source including the Codex.  That's your prerogative, but don't expect that others will arrive at the same conclusions.  Maybe some other sources to support your opinion?  Like, for instance...a single historical mention of a Wolf Guard who went Lone Wolf?

 

Also, remember that Njal is not a Wolf Lord, he is a Rune Priest.  He might be leading, but he's technically not in the chain of command, he is an adjutant to the Wolf Lord.  I'll remind you that the only person a Wolf Guard owes his loyalty, is the Wolf Lord.  Njal could feel free to take the matter up with the Wolf Lord, but I don't see Stormcaller's sigil on the Annulus.

[tylerw]

Might want to is one thing.  Be allowed to?  Far less likely.  In a pack-oriented society, it's not up to you - it's up to your leader.

 

It sounds like you're basing a lot of your argument on one part of one book, and selectively disregaarding every other source including the Codex.  That's your prerogative, but don't expect that others will arrive at the same conclusions.  Maybe some other sources to support your opinion?  Like, for instance...a single historical mention of a Wolf Guard who went Lone Wolf?

 

Also, remember that Njal is not a Wolf Lord, he is a Rune Priest.  He might be leading, but he's technically not in the chain of command, he is an adjutant to the Wolf Lord.  I'll remind you that the only person a Wolf Guard owes his loyalty, is the Wolf Lord.  Njal could feel free to take the matter up with the Wolf Lord, but I don't see Stormcaller's sigil on the Annulus.

I'm including the codex, as it's where you see folks in TDA, which is, well, HQs, WG, and... well, LWs, which seems to be where people are getting spun up. I'm in agreement that LW in TDA probably would not be that common, as they'd either need to be provided that TDA for some special reason, or they'd need to have it already for some special reason. I just can't see the idea that "WG aren't/can't be/wouldn't be LW."  If anything, you'd think that in a pack society, as you mention, folks like Lukas, skyclaws, etc wouldn't exist, and yet they do, and persist, and are incorporated. If that's the case, why would you expect that WG would never go nuts? They're every bit the drunks and psychos that the younger ones are, just with years more burdens and memories to bear.

 

EDIT

 

Shoot, revisiting Njal, they didn't just disobey a Rune Priest, or THE Rune Priest, they disobeyed him with regard to a psyker from their unit, which he would have absolute authority in regards to, whether you want to angle for some "Well, they're not accountable to him..." approach.

 

Do you have a single example of an explicit statement that LWs aren't WG? I'm not accepting the, "BC/GH/LF" line as it doesn't specify if WG attached to them would or would not fit the bill.

[Stoic Raptor]

 

Shoot, revisiting Njal, they didn't just disobey a Rune Priest, or THE Rune Priest, they disobeyed him with regard to a psyker from their unit, which he would have absolute authority in regards to, whether you want to angle for some "Well, they're not accountable to him..." approach.

 

Do you have a single example of an explicit statement that LWs aren't WG?

 

 

How about the part where victorious Lone Wolves are "almost always elevated to the Wolf Guard"?  That's an explicit statement by GW, regardless of what you infer from anything else.

 

As for Njal, where does it ever say that a psyker has "absoute authority"?  There are only 12 people in the entire Chapter that have "absolute authority", and Njal isn't one of them.  Which sigil on the Annulus is Stormcaller's, again?

[tylerw]

 

 

Shoot, revisiting Njal, they didn't just disobey a Rune Priest, or THE Rune Priest, they disobeyed him with regard to a psyker from their unit, which he would have absolute authority in regards to, whether you want to angle for some "Well, they're not accountable to him..." approach.

 

Do you have a single example of an explicit statement that LWs aren't WG?

 

 

How about the part where victorious Lone Wolves are "almost always elevated to the Wolf Guard"?  That's an explicit statement by GW, regardless of what you infer from anything else.

 

As for Njal, where does it ever say that a psyker has "absoute authority"?  There are only 12 people in the entire Chapter that have "absolute authority", and Njal isn't one of them.  Which sigil on the Annulus is Stormcaller's, again?

 

Hmm, I may be conflating what I remember of his quotes/arguments from that book with fact, but that's what I got - on the matter of psykers, the rune priests have the authority.

I should say, because I don't want to be a huge jackass, that I have shifted my view a little - before this discussion I just assumed that if you were a LW in TDA, you WERE a WG, while now I'd probably see 2 things from the other side:

 

Despite being sweet in TDA, LW in TDA are actually pretty uncommon in the "real" world.

TDA wouldn't have to be WG, as there could be justification for them obtaining it and not being in the WG.

There MIGHT not be any WG TDA (although I can't really see that as a definitive statement as it overlooks too much circumstantial evidence in the contrary).

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Nope. They just illustrate why you feel that you can't go for it. You try to say that BOTH are true - WG can't be a true pack with GH/BC/whatever, but they also can't go LW b/c new brother will be promoted to WG. Sure, new guys you don't respect, love, honor, whatever, as much as you did all of your pack brothers who were wiped out TOTALLY keep you from going crazy.  Uh-huh.

 

No, you seem to have missed my point, again. This boils down the question of 'what counts as a 'pack' for a Wolf Guard?'.

 

Is it the pack he's assigned to lead? I'd say no, because there's no guarantee that he's served with them for any length of time.

Is it his fellow Wolf Guard? If so, what happens to that 'pack' when members are assigned to lead squads, or form separate squads that might not even be deployed on the same planet? Does a WG need to be the very last of his Lord's huskarls to count, or is a single 'squad' sufficient for Lone Wolf purposes? It is partly thanks to questions like this why I treat the 'WG going LW' idea with the scepticism I do.

 

Fundamentally you seem to hold an entirely different opinion on Lone Wolves, and how they originate, to myself. I'll endeavour to explain my thought process:

 

To start with we have 2 facts, Lone Wolves are Space Wolves that take death oaths thanks to the loss of their squad/packmates, and that they are a unique institution to the Space Wolves Chapter. The question which naturally follows on from these two facts is 'why are LWs unique to the Rout?'. If a Tactical Marine's squad is wiped out on a mission, he doesn't swear death oaths and go loner, whereas a Grey Hunter often seems to. You could argue that it's a unique aspect of Fenrisian culture, but that doesn't hold water imo because it relies of the premise that no other warrior culture that the Astartes recruit from (and there's quite a few of those) practices similar death/kinship rites, otherwise they'd also employ a type of Lone Wolf. Therefore we should look towards how the Wolves conduct themselves differently from their Codex peers once they've been recruited.

 

Here we find a major difference in recruitment progression. A Codex Chapter operates much like a regular military, with individuals moving up through the specialisations and from Scout to Reserve to Battle Companies as dictated by circumstance and personal competence. Then we have the Wolves, where intakes of recruits predominantly stay together throughout their service, first as hot headed Blood Claws, then the stalwart Grey Hunters and finally the veteran Long Fangs, with the only a minority leaving this system to enter the Scouts, Wolf Guard or Priesthoods (Notably Blood of Asaheim does seem to contradict this, with a single BC being added to an under strength GH pack (as well as automatic WG promotion for squad leader, which is weird tbh), but that's a lone exception, the vast body of evidence supports the 'all progress together' method). The previous dexes LW fluff also demonstrated this, which stated going LW was the option taken by lone survivors who hadn't earned a place in the WG yet, without their pack they had no place, and the only option they have left is one last throw of the dice, and either die chasing glory or be elevated to the ranks of the elite.

 

So on the one hand we have Marines who rotate through squads and assignments individually through their service, while on the other we have a group of Marines that are not separated except by exceptional circumstance. Therefore it seems reasonable that the bonds between packmates are stronger than those between Codex squadmates, because the former are all of similar age and shared experience, so naturally deaths among a pack hit the survivors harder than deaths among a squad.

 

Now we get to the Wolf Guard. These are the warriors who have distinguished themselves in some way to be elevated above the rank and file. But once they are removed from the pack progression structure, well, they're outside of that pack progression system. Now they are a lot more similar to a Codex squad or company, with varied deployments and an ever changing roster of members. In that light they don't have the same bonds to their fellow WG as their former packmates. Therefore it seems to me that WG are unlikely to produce Lone Wolves for the same reason we don't see many mad death seekers in the Imperial Fists, Salamanders or White Scars, LWs are a product of the SW's unique pack structure, which membership in the Wolf Guard subverts.

 

I hope I've explained myself clearly here, I've been chipping away at this post on and off all evening.

[Stoic Raptor]

I think we're reaching a synthesis here, and that's good.

 

I'm sure Njal has authority over all psykers - none of which are in the Wolf Guard, of course - but his authority over anyone else would merely be due to the respect due his station, unless the Great Wolf himself put Njal in command of an entire force.  In fact, if I recaall correctly, all Priests are separate from the Company's organization and are merely attached as assets.

 

I'm sure that Lone Wolves using TDA is far less common in the "reality" of the 41st Millennium than it is on the tabletop - and I'd expect that the ones who don't wear TDA tend to find that glorious death more often.  I kind of miss the incentive to actually get your LWs killed in battle, and I expect that 7th Edition Lone Wolves in TDA will survive more often than before.

 

I can see the possibility that some few Lone Wolves might come from the ranks of the Wolf Guard, assuming that their Lord grants them the freedom to seek redemption in death.  But I can imagine few Lords would be willing to throw away their most valuable and experienced warriors in this fashion, so it's probably a small percentage.

 

I can see reasons why a Lord might grant the use of TDA to a deathseeker outside of the Wolf Guard - all of the Company's equipment, after all, is essentially property of the Wolf Lord, to be used at his sole discretion.  I can imagine he might grant use of TDA to those warriors whom he wants to find that redemption in an impossible victory, rather than in death.  and this may be the reason why those who do so, are typically inducted immediately into the ranks of the Wolf Guard.
 

[Stoic Raptor]

 The vast body of evidence supports the 'all progress together' method. The previous dexes LW fluff also demonstrated this, which stated going LW was the option taken by lone survivors who hadn't earned a place in the WG yet, without their pack they had no place, and the only option they have left is one last throw of the dice, and either die chasing glory or be elevated to the ranks of the elite.

 

That's been my understaanding of it as well - a Wolf goes loner and seeks death or glory when he no longer has a place.  A Wolf Guard always has a place - by his Lord's side.  When a Wolf Lord dies, his replacement is elected by, and from among, his Wolf Guard.

 

It's much like real wolves - being pack-oriented creatures, when one has no pack remaining, despair naturally follows. Such wolves often go off to die alone, as it's uncommon for a lone wolf to find a pack that will take him in.  Given the way Space Wolves advance together, this surely happens there, too.

[CaptainStabby]

In regards to WG heraldry. The black and yellow marking is meant to be their lord's heraldry (2E dex I believe states this) this is different than the Great Company marking. It is also mentioned that the WG are allowed to sport their own personal heraldry upon induction to the WG. (I forget which dex/book this is in, maybe Index Astartes?)

 

It is conceivable that the WG left over when a Lord dies wander off to become LW, there's not a big gap in logic there that says there's a honour/blood/whatever debt to be paid for allowing their lord to be killed on their watch.

[Gemini]

I miss the rules about WANTING to get my Lone Wolves killed off too. That was SO DIFFERENT from anything else in anyones codex (that I've read anyways). The fact that you played this one (or two) units on the board in what was a completely different way stretched me quite a bit. It was also fun watching new players get very happy then having that moment where they think "WAIT! I didn't want to kill that!"

[tylerw]

I miss the rules about WANTING to get my Lone Wolves killed off too. That was SO DIFFERENT from anything else in anyones codex (that I've read anyways). The fact that you played this one (or two) units on the board in what was a completely different way stretched me quite a bit. It was also fun watching new players get very happy then having that moment where they think "WAIT! I didn't want to kill that!"

It also made them a little more fun to play against armies that otherwise look at them as easy FB much of the time.

[Stoic Raptor]

In regards to WG heraldry. The black and yellow marking is meant to be their lord's heraldry (2E dex I believe states this) this is different than the Great Company marking. It is also mentioned that the WG are allowed to sport their own personal heraldry upon induction to the WG. (I forget which dex/book this is in, maybe Index Astartes?)

 

It is conceivable that the WG left over when a Lord dies wander off to become LW, there's not a big gap in logic there that says there's a honour/blood/whatever debt to be paid for allowing their lord to be killed on their watch.

 

There is no logic in that whatsoever, given that the next Wolf Lord is chosen from the ranks of the existing Wolf Guard, by his brethren.  If all the remaining Wolf Guard went Lone Wolf. who would be the new Lord, a Blood Claw?  This is basic organizational knowledge.

 

As for Wolf Guard heraldry, the Companies of Fenris painting guide as well as the Champions of Fenris supplement show that individual Wolf Guard each has their own marking.  Look at Daggerfist's Void Claws, Egil Iron Wolf's Iron Guard, Sven Bloodhowl's Blood Guard, and Logan Grimnar's Kingsguard.  You'll see that each individual has their own shoulder pad markings, which are explained to be based on the pack from which they originated.  The Great Company marking is a different thing, and is on the opposite shoulder.

 

What you won't see, is a unified "pack marking" shared by members of the aforementioned Wolf Guard groups.

[marvmoogy]

 

In regards to WG heraldry. The black and yellow marking is meant to be their lord's heraldry (2E dex I believe states this) this is different than the Great Company marking. It is also mentioned that the WG are allowed to sport their own personal heraldry upon induction to the WG. (I forget which dex/book this is in, maybe Index Astartes?)

 

It is conceivable that the WG left over when a Lord dies wander off to become LW, there's not a big gap in logic there that says there's a honour/blood/whatever debt to be paid for allowing their lord to be killed on their watch.

 

There is no logic in that whatsoever, given that the next Wolf Lord is chosen from the ranks of the existing Wolf Guard, by his brethren.  If all the remaining Wolf Guard went Lone Wolf. who would be the new Lord, a Blood Claw?  This is basic organizational knowledge.

 

As for Wolf Guard heraldry, the Companies of Fenris painting guide as well as the Champions of Fenris supplement show that individual Wolf Guard each has their own marking.  Look at Daggerfist's Void Claws, Egil Iron Wolf's Iron Guard, Sven Bloodhowl's Blood Guard, and Logan Grimnar's Kingsguard.  You'll see that each individual has their own shoulder pad markings, which are explained to be based on the pack from which they originated.  The Great Company marking is a different thing, and is on the opposite shoulder.

 

What you won't see, is a unified "pack marking" shared by members of the aforementioned Wolf Guard groups.

 

 

Disagree completely.  As an example, look at Krom Dragongaze.  His fluff states that he has a lot of Wolf Guard...so, imagine the situation where he is leading his Great Company, and, for arguments sake, has 20 Wolf Guard.  He personally leads 5 of those into battle, leaving the other 15 as WG Pack Leaders and a couple of 5 man squads.  He rushes in to CC as is his way and his WG follow.

 

Now, imagine 2 of his WG die in battle.  The fighting is tough and Krom looses a wound...then another....a third WG dies and as Krom howls for the loss, a killing blow beats his guard and Krom is a gonner.  

 

So there are 2 Wolf Guard left alive of Krom's retinue and up to 15 WG alive from the Great Company.  

 

I could totally see it happening that the 2 WG from Krom's retinue slope off to Lone Wolf-dom whilst the successor to Krom is chosen from the remaining Wolf Guard who do NOT have the same, deep feelings of responsibility for the Death of their leader.