EnterRehab Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 So I was looking around on battlescribe and ran across a model on there (in the Inquisition section) called Cypher. His stats were insane, but I couldn't find him in either my new GK codex, old GK codex, or the inquisition e-book. So I ventured out to google and stumbled across his (brief) lore. This guy is insane.. At 190 points, is there a reason I've never seen him on any army lists here, or even considered along side the assassins in terms of power? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz1858 Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 Its from the Cypher Dataslate. He is a good Character if a little pricey. Get it from Black Library and have a look Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/#findComment-3942046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I've made a few GK posts about the flaws with his Infiltrate. ;) The main problem though is that we'd need to take him in his formation with Chaos, er Fallen Imperial 'Chosen' Marines, in order to take use of his Infiltrate. As we have no natural Infiltrators ourselves. Or attach him to allied Scouts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/#findComment-3942124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnterRehab Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 I've made a few GK posts about the flaws with his Infiltrate. The main problem though is that we'd need to take him in his formation with Chaos, er Fallen Imperial 'Chosen' Marines, in order to take use of his Infiltrate. As we have no natural Infiltrators ourselves. Or attach him to allied Scouts. He doesn't need to be taken in his own formation, though.. He can be taken as an individual IC that doesn't take up a FOC from what I can tell. Why do you need to take the Chosen? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/#findComment-3942435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 He's better with other factions simple as that. We already have easy access to atsknf, shunt, DS shroud etc. I could see him infiltrating say purifiers but it still wouldn't be that great. Compare that to say 10 t6 bikes with 2+ jink hit& run infiltrate or 15 t5 raptors etc. He's better with less elite troops than ours with move 12" and/or larger unit sizes. You really pick the army based on cypher rather than the reverse. I made a list for a friend recently and posted it on b&c somewhere. It abused his "at all costs" + tzenahk legacy as an alternate win condition.. = kill both units or the army nets 2d3 vp. Night lords btw. Seemed appropriate to represent their terror tactics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/#findComment-3942793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I've made a few GK posts about the flaws with his Infiltrate. The main problem though is that we'd need to take him in his formation with Chaos, er Fallen Imperial 'Chosen' Marines, in order to take use of his Infiltrate. As we have no natural Infiltrators ourselves. Or attach him to allied Scouts. Infiltrate - "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed." I don't see what the issue is. Attach him to the mandatory terminators to deploy them 18" from the enemy lines (no need for a comms relay RD). Or purifiers for double the fun. He is at initiative 8! (with half his attacks (rounding down) at S7 AP2) which means he could even slap an assassin in the face and live to talk about it, depending on the assassin. He has Hit n Run so that would really benefit purifiers more. The downsides are that the warlord NDK suffers -1 Ld and he is in power armour with no inv save. He would probably be a better pseudo-Crowe, given that he has insane initiative with insane attack profiles outside of a challange, that can also be used in the shooting phase, twice. If you include him in a squad then he sort of gets The Aegis rule off them, but wont benefit from hammerhand as it's the pistols firing in combat. If the terminators or purifiers tank the inevitable shots then he could prove useful. He confers shrouded which might help the purifiers against AP3/2 too. He's better with other factions simple as that.Draigo is better with other factions, but doesn't mean we can't use him either. If the OP has a GK army then suggesting to use him in another army is pointless. The challenge given to use is to see if Cypher is good with the GK, lets make it happen! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/#findComment-3943217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Don't really want to open the can, but hey. You can only attach an IC to a unit when; 1: You place both units into reserves 2: You deploy both units on the board (the IC must deploy within coherency) So we ignore number 1. You deploy Infiltrators *last*. After your opponent has deployed their entire army even (let's assume you go first). If you want to deploy Cypher with a unit and *infiltrate* them, then the unit must have Infiltrate itself. Otherwise it has to be deployed *before* you are allow to deploy Cypher. Therefore the unit *cannot* Infiltrate, and Cypher starts on the board on his own. We have zero native units that can infiltrate. Cyphers formation gives the Chosen the Infiltrate rule (have a think as to why... It's to make this work...), so you can deploy Cypher with a unit of Chosen and both Infiltrate. I'm not up to discussing this if anyone disagrees. those are the rules, and this has been hashed to death multiple times in the OR. Cypher *cannot* be deployed on board in a position to infiltrate (outside your own DZ) with a unit that does not already have Infiltrate. Sucks really. For reference; http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286353-indepedent-characters-and-infiltrate/ http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/284941-infiltrating/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/#findComment-3943447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Cyphers formation gives the Chosen the Infiltrate rule (have a think as to why... It's to make this work...) Lol. RAW you're right, you attach an IC in squad cohesion. But RAI that is not the case, otherwise the infiltrate rule wouldn't confer to the unit if you could only infiltrate a character with infiltrators. Which leads me to believe the chosen also having infiltrate is nothing but forged narrative. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/#findComment-3943574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 RAW you're right The formation supports the RAW. That's why the Chosen get Infiltrate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/#findComment-3943579 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'm not up to discussing this if anyone disagrees. Well good.. because GW faq'd it up: http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Rules-Errata#40k-errata Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/#findComment-3947096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Those errata are way out of date. You should go to Black Library instead, they have up to date FAQ documents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/#findComment-3947211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnterRehab Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 January 2015 isn't very old, though.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/#findComment-3947229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 The Grey Knight one is massively out of date. I always use the BL errata page. FYI the new 40k 7th edition FAQ is up. They just clarified both the IC and unit must have Infiltrate first if you wish to Infiltrate them together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/#findComment-3947306 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 The Grey Knight one is massively out of date. I always use the BL errata page. FYI the new 40k 7th edition FAQ is up. They just clarified both the IC and unit must have Infiltrate first if you wish to Infiltrate them together. Then why say the rule confers, it makes no sense. Oh right, GW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/#findComment-3947370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Upgrade units. Like a Thawn type character (or a Sarge who can buy Wargear). One member of the Squad has infiltrate, they all have infiltrate. ICs aren't a member of the Squad until deployment, which is too late to confer Infiltrate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/#findComment-3947381 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Yeah I thought Infiltrate always worked that way. Glad they cleared it up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303113-cypher-allied-to-gk/#findComment-3947396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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