Anvil to our hammer

[BloodTzar]

Go for the uber cheesy Draigo-Loth-cent star and jump all over the place invisible with 2++ just in a case, getting counter-charge is just icing on the cake ... as sad it is nowadays 40k turned into getting the most cheesy stuff out on a table

[Reclusiarch Darius]

GW subtle acceptance our new codex is crap? And saying we can still use the old one?

Silver linings!

Lol, if only.

Go for the uber cheesy Draigo-Loth-cent star and jump all over the place invisible with 2++ just in a case, getting counter-charge is just icing on the cake ... as sad it is nowadays 40k turned into getting the most cheesy stuff out on a table

Loth is banned in most normal tourneys, and even in casual games its pretty cruel to unleash that on casual lists. Draigo+Grav-Cents is perfectly legal though, just like TripTide.

40k has always been about exploiting the loopholes to make powerful combos. GW have been tightening things up every edition...but then they have to sell new box sets, so they push their rules as hard as possible. MC's weren't selling in 5th, so in 6th vehicles got rekt and FMC's were introduced to sell Daemon Prince and Flyrant kits (plus the new Tyranid FMC's). 7th saw Flyers and FMC's get nerfed, and xenos get buffed through their codex releases. It's just a constant arms race.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

GW have been tightening things up every edition...

 

Not sure they really have.

 

They tried to stop things like Bangel FnP only effecting Bangels, then this edition throw it out the window again.

 

I can't understand their changes.

[Quozzo]

Bangle FnP in 5th was granted by the Blood Chalice, which would obviously only affect Bangles. The Exsanguinator Narthecium is the one that grants the unit FnP now, which would affect all factions. The Blood Chalice still grants a bonus to Bangles, and they got rid of the bubble effect too so it just benefits the unit attached.

 

Fluff aside, a HQ unit that grants FnP is the least of the ally powerbuilds available. Ministorum Priests and Sanctioned Psykers are still a thing. Brotherhood Champion with clawinators are insane, or an extra 25 points for cleansing flame too. Stern is good with hammernators too, giving them hammerhand and sanctuary. You can take both and a techmarine (no FOC slot) to buff another unit of DC or something.

 

The hammernators and clawinators would obviously have a Sang Priest each, the DC don't need one, could even get Astorath in there or just a chaplain for giggles.

[Gentlemanloser]

You're probably right that all GW balance changes are fluff related (as stupid as that is!).

 

That wouldn't surprise me. :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It would explain why the meta wildly shifts every edition. I suppose they want to give every faction their day in the sun (shrug). 

[Sete]

Im making a Strike force this month. I have the MT codex so they will probably make good allies.

At least a couple of them scions squads a Taurox and a Comissar just to keep troops happy.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Im making a Strike force this month. I have the MT codex so they will probably make good allies.

At least a couple of them scions squads a Taurox and a Comissar just to keep troops happy. 

 

Good luck dude. Infantry lists are in for a world of hurt this edition. 

[BloodTzar]

So what is the ideal GK list than nowadays :) ?

[Gentlemanloser]

9 NDK. ;)

[Captain Coolpants]

9 NDK. ;)

I was waiting for this. . . Lol

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

Im making a Strike force this month. I have the MT codex so they will probably make good allies.

At least a couple of them scions squads a Taurox and a Comissar just to keep troops happy. 

 

Good luck dude. Infantry lists are in for a world of hurt this edition. 

 

 

Really? A list with lots of squishy troops was runner-up at LVO over all the MC and deathstar lists.

 

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/02/40k-unbeatable-lists-lvo-edition.html

 

Looks like boots on the ground can still be a winning strategy.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Really? A list with lots of squishy troops was runner-up at LVO over all the MC and deathstar lists.

 

Exactly, runner up. I dunno what happened at the LVO (no tournament is ever the same, and no game is ever the same, so weird things can happen...Sisters won a tourney the other year IIRC). But I'm sure in his final game, he ran into the brick wall of the meta, and that terrible list got stomped flat. 

>10-man Scout teams

>Devastators

My brain hurts reading that list

Looks like boots on the ground can still be a winning strategy.

 

Provided you can keep them alive. That's the biggest issue with 7th edition and fighting xenos or Chaos. They have so much infantry removal now, a lot of it with 'Ignore Cover' able to stacked on it as well, your infantry are constantly in danger of being vapour. Meanwhile, they tootle around in much tougher transports or play hard-to-ignore threats like MC's. 

[IndigoJack]

He went 8 for 9 games with that list, I'm sure if he was going to hit a "brick wall of meta," he would have done it before the last round, which was actually a rematch from the second round of the tournament against #lictorshame, which he defeated the first time around. You can hate on the list all you want, darkwyn played it amazingly well

[Reclusiarch Darius]

He went 8 for 9 games with that list, I'm sure if he was going to hit a "brick wall of meta," he would have done it before the last round, which was actually a rematch from the second round of the tournament against #lictorshame, which he defeated the first time around. You can hate on the list all you want, darkwyn played it amazingly well

 

Yeah well he's an experienced player and knew how the list works (I sure as hell don't, I see 'dies to Tau in 2 shooting phases' written all over it). I'm sure terrain, mission type and matchup had a lot to do with it. Plus player skill etc. 

 

Just don't read too much into individual tournament results. Only when you see trends should you start drawing conclusions. Marines are around, but they aren't winning tournaments with any kind of consistency. Nowhere near as much as Tau, Necrons and Eldar place at the top end (plus Daemons). 

[Brom MKIV]

Darkwynn's list is deceptively powerful while designed to both take advantage of the format and deny the strengths of certain common expected builds. And obviously he must be a fantastic player to boot. Same for lictorshame.

Thing is we can't evaluate lists in the abstract because we don't see the big picture. For example LVO format is a blend of eternal war and maelstrom. 2 full sources no duplicates. Invisibility was nerfed and FMCs buffed to invis level regarding blasts (go figure), void shields were also ruled to be able to essentially stretch the bubble infinitely, i.e. as long as 1 model from a unit is covered the entire unit benefits. Another moment but it is what it is, build to abuse. Lastly the presence of a super heavy allows the warlord traits of escalation and bonus VP to be brought into play. These are by no means everything but they are some of the defining factors that will then contribute to the competitive meta of the LVO. The top two lists were designed to compete strongly in the missions, counter common expected power builds and/or deny the strengths of those builds.

I play ITC missions almost exclusively (what LVO uses) and I find them to be a very good balance of the two. In these missions MSU is, as usual great, and ObSec is actually very important. Enough so that people do build entire competitive strategies around it. Some people dismiss obsec but IME it wins games especially in the hands of a competent general who has designed their list around it. In short there needs to be a really good reason to not go obsec (see the nids list.. 19+ MSU elements iirc). Tau are actually mid tier in such an environment for multiple reasons. Or actually they are more like GKs.. an allied package really. Everything else is done better by another faction.

I think GKs could be close to being a competitive primary detachment. If for example GW were to bring back solodins as troops we'd be there.

[Happy-inquisitor]

I think GKs could be close to being a competitive primary detachment. If for example GW were to bring back solodins as troops we'd be there.

GK are pretty well there with a very high winning percentage at LVO and one of the top 8 lists. Not all of them were Draigostar

From that set of results there is a risk that any significant further boost to GK would put them into unhealthy point-and-win territory. Right now the ITC format seems to be balancing pretty well across a range of codex and army builds.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Darkwynn's list is deceptively powerful while designed to both take advantage of the format and deny the strengths of certain common expected builds. And obviously he must be a fantastic player to boot. Same for lictorshame.

Yeah, I thought there was something missing from the picture. Because his infantry choices screamed 'Turn 1 wiped' to me.

Thing is we can't evaluate lists in the abstract because we don't see the big picture. For example LVO format is a blend of eternal war and maelstrom. 2 full sources no duplicates. Invisibility was nerfed and FMCs buffed to invis level regarding blasts (go figure), void shields were also ruled to be able to essentially stretch the bubble infinitely, i.e. as long as 1 model from a unit is covered the entire unit benefits. Another moment but it is what it is, build to abuse. Lastly the presence of a super heavy allows the warlord traits of escalation and bonus VP to be brought into play. These are by no means everything but they are some of the defining factors that will then contribute to the competitive meta of the LVO. The top two lists were designed to compete strongly in the missions, counter common expected power builds and/or deny the strengths of those builds.

By full sources I assume you mean CAD or Ally detachments? Again, don't see it affecting xenos that much. Maelstrom is a joke so I don't think mixing that in especially helps us. Eternal War is okay for GK, provided you know what you're doing and don't let up the pressure.

I play ITC missions almost exclusively (what LVO uses) and I find them to be a very good balance of the two. In these missions MSU is, as usual great, and ObSec is actually very important. Enough so that people do build entire competitive strategies around it. Some people dismiss obsec but IME it wins games especially in the hands of a competent general who has designed their list around it. In short there needs to be a really good reason to not go obsec (see the nids list.. 19+ MSU elements iirc). Tau are actually mid tier in such an environment for multiple reasons. Or actually they are more like GKs.. an allied package really. Everything else is done better by another faction.

I find it hard to believe any of the xenos would have trouble with those missions. Tau are actually stronger as a pure list, and one of their strongest builds of all (TripTide with 2x MissileSide teams) uses CAD. Necrons are also unlikely to have much issue, as their infantry are now one of their strongest assets (as they simply don't die, gauss kills vehicles, and they can spam a lot of firepower on the cheap).

I think GKs could be close to being a competitive primary detachment. If for example GW were to bring back solodins as troops we'd be there.

Solodins was an oversight, and I don't think in 7th edition meta they would be much help. We need board control, more than anything else. One of the most frustrating aspects of GK is you can't spread out or threaten different parts of the enemy army. You have to commit to one area and really hammer it, as you're entire army is (at best) half the size of your opponents.

GK are pretty well there with a very high winning percentage at LVO and one of the top 8 lists. Not all of them were Draigostar

From that set of results there is a risk that any significant further boost to GK would put them into unhealthy point-and-win territory. Right now the ITC format seems to be balancing pretty well across a range of codex and army builds.

You've got to be joking. We're nowhere near the level of xenos, or even something like IG or Marines.

[Brom MKIV]

I find it hard to believe any of the xenos would have trouble with those missions. Tau are actually stronger as a pure list, and one of their strongest builds of all (TripTide with 2x MissileSide teams) uses CAD. Necrons are also unlikely to have much issue, as their infantry are now one of their strongest assets (as they simply don't die, gauss kills vehicles, and they can spam a lot of firepower on the cheap). 

 

I won't pretend to know all the reasons why tau aren't at the top of US tourneys atm but I can speculate its because of that in part (stongest as pure that is.. although its debatable). 7th crushed their battle bros allies and thus their deathstar build and access to the good meq stuff like smash*ucker joining tau units among other things. Add to that their troops are pretty meh outside of small or min FE crisis teams. And then theres a complete lack of psych or combat and tau are relegated to a sister dex. IDK I could see a resurgence happening with a farshiit bomb to answer pretty much everything even extreme MSU and FMCs.. tucked into a necron army lolz.  

 

Solodins was an oversight, and I don't think in 7th edition meta they would be much help. We need board control, more than anything else. One of the most frustrating aspects of GK is you can't spread out or threaten different parts of the enemy army. You have to commit to one area and really hammer it, as you're entire army is (at best) half the size of your opponents. 

 

I agree. I was actually feeling bad about running my dreadknights in tandem at first and they weren't performing. Shook that off real quick and their performance went straight up. The value of solodins would depend on the mission type but solodins would allow us to pull off our own (weaker) version of lictorshame in ITC missions. Like you say though we need board control and 6 x 1 isn't enough to do it but it might open a new build up. I think we would of potentially seen them at least here and there in top lists. Meh no way of knowing now though.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I won't pretend to know all the reasons why tau aren't at the top of US tourneys atm but I can speculate its because of that in part (stongest as pure that is.. although its debatable). 7th crushed their battle bros allies and thus their deathstar build and access to the good meq stuff like smash*ucker joining tau units among other things. Add to that their troops are pretty meh outside of small or min FE crisis teams. And then theres a complete lack of psych or combat and tau are relegated to a sister dex. IDK I could see a resurgence happening with a farshiit bomb to answer pretty much everything even extreme MSU and FMCs.. tucked into a necron army lolz.  

 

But their strongest lists don't use Allies. Also, have you seen how much pulse firepower their Troops can output? At rapid-fire range, with an Ethereal hiding in a Devilfish, you can get absurd amounts of S5 output, on Overwatch as well. Crisis barely matter. 

 agree. I was actually feeling bad about running my dreadknights in tandem at first and they weren't performing. Shook that off real quick and their performance went straight up. The value of solodins would depend on the mission type but solodins would allow us to pull off our own (weaker) version of lictorshame in ITC missions. Like you say though we need board control and 6 x 1 isn't enough to do it but it might open a new build up. I think we would of potentially seen them at least here and there in top lists. Meh no way of knowing now though.

 

We're not allowed to have fun :(