champions vs sigismund

[skeletoro]

so... Just had a game vs 30k imperial fists. My thunderwolves were completely butchered by Sigismund! I had to accept his challenges, he forces rerolls on invulnerable saves and wounds (with ID) on a 2+! He actually killed three TWC in one assault phase and six over the course of the battle.

 

I sorta feel like he is a bit of a hard counter to champions (especially TWC). I think I will need to use a dramatically different list next time I go up against him.

 

anyone else have this experience before?

 

[NightHowler]

I know absolutely nothing about 30K, except that I have heard that 30K units are an order of magnitude more powerful than equivalent 40K units.  

 

Do TWC have 30K rules?  Or were you using 40K TWC vs a 30K unit? 

[Leif Bearclaw]

No TWC don't have 30k rules, and they never will, Allfather willing. Leave that silliness out of the Heresy. Please ?

As for dealing with Sigi, I can't remember his exact stats off the top of my head, but here goes. He's a top tier 30k melee beatstick, so to counter him you either need a better stick (which Wolves don't really have imo), or play smarter. Two obvious options; first, fill him and his unit with plasma, he'll drop eventually, second, if he's not S8, send Bjorn or Murderfang to play with him, if he's not EW, S8/10 from a Dread will sort him out sharpish, and even if he is, he's stuck in a challenge vs something he can barely/can't hurt.

Though I haven't gone up against a Legion force myself, so this is just theorycrafting on my part.

[Lysere]

You don't fight Sigismund in melee unless you are a Primarch. Anything less than a Primarch will die, period. He doesn't wound on a 2+ automatically, but his sword gives him +2 strength, and is ap2.

 

You've got the right idea though, drown him and his squad in all the AP2 firepower you can and try to get him off the table before he can get into assault, which may be tough if the player brings a Spartan Assault tank. If you absolutely must fight him in melee just keep him away from your characters. If you know he's going to assault next turn move the characters in the unit to the very back of the squad and keep a solid 4+ inches between him and the front line. "Unengaged" models can't issue or accept challenges, so if he's not in base or within 2" of someone who is he'll be safe for a turn.

 

Sigismund is THE Emperor's Champion, you do not fight him in a challenge and expect to come out alive, ever.

 

Also note he is EW, and all his attacks in challenges are instant death.

[Leif Bearclaw]

So only S6? Am I correct in thinking that he must give/accept challenges? Still sounds like a Character Dread is a solid counter, assuming you can get it into assault.

[Lysere]

So only S6? Am I correct in thinking that he must give/accept challenges? Still sounds like a Character Dread is a solid counter, assuming you can get it into assault.

 

A non character dread is your best bet other than shooting because he gets re-rolls to hit in a challenge, but not outside of them. He can still hurt it unless your armor 13. Good luck getting a dread into combat with him though. The squad he's with will probably be able to handle the dread anyway, and challenges are no longer a safe haven for a single character. While Sigismund tanks for the squad they can smash the dread for him.

 

But yes he must issue and accept challenges. With current 7th ed rules for units and challenges there is literally no downside anymore. At least not for him.

[Donkalleone]

Dont play CoF and u arent forced to the Challenge.

[skeletoro]

Yep donk, that's true, but that's almost like saying 'use a different army.' which is kinda my point - it's virtually a hard counter.

 

Hadn't noticed that he's only s6. That's something.

 

Funnily enough a wolf lord with the armour of rust and the helfrost sword might have a decent shot at beating him. Throwing some cheap models into the mix would help immensely. And endurance would REALLY help.

[Fury_of_Fenris]

Shoot him

 

in the head preferably

 

Take away or reduce the strengths of your enemy to defeat him

[Lysere]

Yep donk, that's true, but that's almost like saying 'use a different army.' which is kinda my point - it's virtually a hard counter.

 

Hadn't noticed that he's only s6. That's something.

 

Funnily enough a wolf lord with the armour of rust and the helfrost sword might have a decent shot at beating him. Throwing some cheap models into the mix would help immensely. And endurance would REALLY help.

 

You have almost no chance of killing him in one round of combat, and all he needs to do is wound you once, unless you have EW. If you can get EW then you could probably win that fight so long as you have a unit to back up your character. Also you need AP 2, if the Helfrost sword isn't AP 2 then you'd be better off with a hammer, thanks to that awesome suit of armor you'd swing at the same time in the challenge anyway. That would actually probably be better than the sword in that situation and is a really interesting way to use that armor.

 

Just as an example though, I once threw Sigismund against a DP solo, and he only had three wounds left. DP did two wounds and then dropped to Sigismund's blade and the DP is much stronger than your wolf lord is.

[redmapa]

 

So only S6? Am I correct in thinking that he must give/accept challenges? Still sounds like a Character Dread is a solid counter, assuming you can get it into assault.

 

A non character dread is your best bet other than shooting because he gets re-rolls to hit in a challenge, but not outside of them. He can still hurt it unless your armor 13. Good luck getting a dread into combat with him though. The squad he's with will probably be able to handle the dread anyway, and challenges are no longer a safe haven for a single character. While Sigismund tanks for the squad they can smash the dread for him.

 

But yes he must issue and accept challenges. With current 7th ed rules for units and challenges there is literally no downside anymore. At least not for him.

 

 

Sigismund doesnt get rerolls to hit, he exchanges that part of Imperial Fist legion tactics for Instant Death and forcing rerolls on succesful invulnerable saves when in a challenge, throw anything thats not a character at Sigismund and he wont be much different from any other character with a 4++ and AP2 weapon or just deny the challenge if you can because thats where he shines, outside of it he's much less of a threat but he will still kick ass.

[skeletoro]

If the wolf lord wounded Sigismund once, Sigismund would have to make a strength test or die (so, 1/3 probability). If the wolf lord wounded him twice, with two tests it would kill him 5/9 of the time. Still, that's not amazing odds. Assuming a bolt pistol and charge bonus, the wolf lord has about a 29% chance of killing Sigismund before Sigismund strikes back. (durfast, icefang, Russ, bolt pistol, 7 attacks, .75 hit, .67 wound and .17 rend)

 

I wouldn't call that almost no odds, however.

 

Things get a little more interesting if a friendly rune priest grants enfeeblement - the strength test would fail half the time, and the wolf lord's overall chance of a kill is boosted somewhat, to 36% or so. Not shabby, but not great.

 

 

____

 

Leaving that aside, here's some interesting pair ups we could offer:

 

Bjorn. If he actually gets into combat, he can not lose to Sigismund and Sigismund will die within a few short rounds.

Lukas. He'll lose, but so will Sigismund 1/2 of the time. That's pretty amazing when you think about it.

Bran Redmaw. He's actually quite a close contender, once he shifts into the redmaw. Neither is likely to kill other in a single turn. Advantage goes to Sigismund, but the Redmaw is has a fighting chance and will likely tank Sigismund long enough for his retinue to go about their business, assuming of course, that he has a superior retinue.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Or don't play 40k against an army using 30k rules. Vastly different power levels which don't belong on the same table.

[Lysere]

 

 

So only S6? Am I correct in thinking that he must give/accept challenges? Still sounds like a Character Dread is a solid counter, assuming you can get it into assault.

 

A non character dread is your best bet other than shooting because he gets re-rolls to hit in a challenge, but not outside of them. He can still hurt it unless your armor 13. Good luck getting a dread into combat with him though. The squad he's with will probably be able to handle the dread anyway, and challenges are no longer a safe haven for a single character. While Sigismund tanks for the squad they can smash the dread for him.

 

But yes he must issue and accept challenges. With current 7th ed rules for units and challenges there is literally no downside anymore. At least not for him.

 

 

Sigismund doesnt get rerolls to hit, he exchanges that part of Imperial Fist legion tactics for Instant Death and forcing rerolls on succesful invulnerable saves when in a challenge, throw anything thats not a character at Sigismund and he wont be much different from any other character with a 4++ and AP2 weapon or just deny the challenge if you can because thats where he shines, outside of it he's much less of a threat but he will still kick ass.

 

 

He doesn't lose any Imperial fist rules. Not only does he get re-rolls in challenges but he also gains instant death and makes you re-roll invulns. His rule 'Dolorous fighter' just adds to his imperial fist bonuses. The thing that changes is that he not only has to issue challenges, but also is required to accept them and that this takes priority over the normal Imperial fist challenge rules. This works much the same way that the 40k Emperor's Champion does. There are several characters that have rules like that in 40k, but if an EC is present he takes priority over them, Sigismund is the exact same way.

 

Edit: Also given that Helfrost can kill even EW models on a strength test that would be a good way to deal with him, but it'll probably cost you more points than what Sigismund is just to deal with him effectively, and if you fail to kill him then he'll probably take you down. Still with that sword and the Armor of Russ you should be able to do it.

 

Basically anytime you fight a character like him you either need to go first with a really high chance of killing him before he gets to swing, or you need EW and the ability to save against most of what he does. That Relic combo would meet that need, and if combined with a mount would give you a really solid chance to pull it off so long as the dice gods don't abandon you. Still I wonder just how many points you'd need to spend just to do that.