L30n1d4s Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Looking to see what the Sons of Sanguinus suggest for dealing with Necron Wraiths in their latest iteration. Wraiths were good before, but they are even better now. S6 T5 Beasts with 2 wounds, 3 Rending attacks base, and a 3++ save, they are tough for almost any unit to take down (and they can even become I5 if they take the Whip Coils upgrade). Right now the best I can think of is to use a unit of 10 JP Death Company with Astorath attached... on the charge they have 50 S5 attacks... with Astorath's rerolls, they get an average of 37-38 hits and 28 wounds, with the Wraiths failing about a thrid of these, so a total of 9 unsaved wounds or 4-5 dead Wraiths. Of course, this is an expensive unit and you have to get the charge to be successful. Any other ideas of how to deal with them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Haven't played against them in their latest form but I played many games against them in the last 18 months or so and despite that T5, I reckon the best way to deal with them is still sheer volume of fire / cc attacks. As opposed to using high S weaponry such as vindicators. Anything weaker than AP3 gets a higher payback, as they get that 3++ so AP5 is just as good as AP1, right? For a specific anti-wraith unit, jump DC probably are your best bet. But try to use bolter or heavy bolter fire against them if you have it . Is the maximum unit size still 3 wraiths? That's the only downside I can see to taking a high-PV unit to combat them, unless you can get the multi-charge on several units of wraiths. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3944501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Agreed, volume of fire - make them make lots of saves. Not necessarily the easiest task with most BA lists though... landraiders (crusader or redeemer), Baal predator, double-tapping tacticals with heavy flamer, DC cc-attacks, SR with hurricane bolters etc... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3944510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Dreadnought. Can't even touch a fury (rend maybe?) A DC blendernought as well. Sure, 3++, but ID and shred. They are buggers though, but they always have been. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3944522 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Dreadnought. Can't even touch a fury (rend maybe?) A DC blendernought as well. Sure, 3++, but ID and shred. They are buggers though, but they always have been. Hmm the Furioso is not a bad idea... rending can still get him though; and he doesn't really have a lot of attacks. I think the DC dread would be too risky though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3944529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I have them sometimes :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3944539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
L30n1d4s Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 Hmmm, that's a good idea about Dreads... imagine a DC Dread with Blood Talons with a nearby librarian casting Quickening on it... that's 7-9 S10 AP2 Shred attacks on the charge, which sould be enough to ID multiple Wraiths (S10 for the win). The key is getting the charge of course, so maybe ride in a Stormraven and intercept the Wraiths mid-field. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3944543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Just my tuppence on dreads based on experience vs wraiths, I would suggest against it. A furioso definitely not, it does not have a lot of attacks and even with their S10 I found they lost more often than won against wraiths. DC dread - maybe more attacks, more hits but not quite enough to munch through wraiths the way the do against MEQ. The Libby would help, but he needs his escort and so with the necessary transport you're tying up more units to deal with even just 3 wraiths. Jump DC have the mobility and number of attacks and they don't need buffs or transport. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3944574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Gunzhard Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Just keep in mind, with either dread, all the Wraiths need is 3 "6's" (to wound) and they're, at least, glanced to death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3944577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Ideal? No But given the suggestion for dealing with a 120 pt wraith unit so far has been 400pts of DC, I think a frag cannon / flammer fury or dual flamer fury/DC is at least near parity cost wise. Terminators or hammernators? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3944584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Even less if the dread takes an immobilised result, as subsequent attacks are resolved against its rear armour. Not sure how stunned results affect dreads in cc, I don't think they are affected. Moot point for DC dread of course. You don't need 400 pts DC to deal with 120 pts wraiths. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3944585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Oops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3944588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 Mephiston with some bodies to tank does quite nicely ;) also, vindicators will soften them up. Wraiths are only strong in numbers, once you have whittled them down to ~2 models they are not very dangerous anymore. Oh, and ALWAYS kill that spider first, you will never bring them down if they have reanimation protocols. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3944721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Aegis Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I have recently faced a list that had them maxed out with a total of 18! And it really really wasn't fun. The only reliable, and efficient way to kill them is with a 10 man DC squad with jump packs, and an attached Chaplain with a jump pack. Used two units of these and was able to kill about 4 and 1/2 average on the charge. The unit is still more expensive then the Wraiths, but there is no point wasting high power shots on a 3++ save. These guys are mini MCs now with T5 that REALLY wasn't necessary. More mobile, and excessively durable as well as threatening to any unit. Especially for their crazy low point cost any Necron player that isn't using them really isn't trying to win. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3944812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-beard Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I am pretty sure Furioso dreadnoughts will get rolled by wraiths. With S6 rending, the wraiths will glance/pen on any 6. The wraiths will likely be attacking at initiative 5, so the dread could be wrecked before it even gets to attack. I think DC are one of our better options, but even they are not automatic. Bring Astaroth for some extra hits/wounds and 2+ tanking. Mephiston is also a good option with his S10 CC attacks as are generic librarians with their force weapons. I think it would also help to soften them up a bit before assault by pouring on the high strength firepower in hopes of killing a couple. Vindicators will insta-squish any wraith that fails their invuln save. Baal predators with autocannon and heavy bolter sponsons should also be able to get some wounds against the T5 wraiths. Sniper scouts are another option for dealing some wounds, as are sternguard with their 2+ poison shots. Whatever you do, if the wraiths are running near a spyder that is giving them RP, kill the spyder first! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3944891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvious Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I have been involved in a conversation over at Dakka on this very subject and I worked out that it took a massive amount of firepower in order to kill a maxed out list with 18 of them. We are talking the following amount of shots for their respective weapons. Bolters - 486 shots Heavy Bolters - 324 shots Lascannon - 194 shots Assault Cannon - 243 shots If you're wanting to translate this into attacks then I suppose it depends if we are S4 or S5 if we get the charge, weapon skill also making a difference. Getting the charge is also more difficult since the Wraiths themselves count as jump infantry and also ignore terrain in the road. So you are looking at 324 S4 hits or 216 S5 hits to take them all out. This of course can get better if we can get re-rolls to wound. So essentially working this out for a unit by unit basis, then a unit of 6 wraiths would need to take 108 S4 hits or 72 S5 hits. Since the Wraiths saves are consistently uniform until you get to S10 weapons or better then Death Company do seem to be our best bet. The only S10 things we have in combat are dreadnoughts and they probably won't survive long enough before they are rended to death. In return the amount of damage the wraiths will do on the basis that they don't get the charge is 18 attacks, translating into 9 hits, further translating into 7.5 wounds. 1.5 of those will be rending and the other 6 wounds will be normal. So we lose on average 1 DC marine from rending (failed feel no pain rolls) and we lose 1.33 marines from the normal attacks (failed armour and FNP rolls). So we will be losing roundabout 2-3 of our DC marines in the first round of assault. So it is pretty important that we can charge at I5 so we can attack at the same time as the wraiths in the case they have whip coils with also needing 4's to wound and we also need to make sure we bring the weight of attacks with us to decrease their numbers relative to ours. EDIT: I also forgot to add that these calculations are without any RP rolls for the wraiths. So this is just for the standard wraiths as they are in the codex with a formation to back them up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3945206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Yeah, weight of fire is all well and good, until you realize just how much fire it actually takes to reliably kill even one squad. Some Space Marine armies could literally fire every weapon they have at them all game long and still not shift every one. If you can win the game without killing them, don't waste a single shot on them. Their damage output isn't all that high, they can't have Objective Secured, they're just fast and insanely durable. Ignore them if you can, tarpit them if you have to, focus on the rest of the army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3945218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Vindicator Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3945222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 How much success have people actually had with vindicators? Wraiths come in threes, right? So best case scenario the demolisher cannon is forcing a trio of 3++ saves, which isn't really very hard to make. It's fantastic if you kill one, but it's quite unlikely that you'll do more than that unless your opponent is really unlucky. Meanwhile, in order to be able to fire at them, the vindcator has to put itself dangerously close to the wraiths' own charge zone... it seems seems like it has the potential to end badly, but I might be unduely pessemistic. I'm also new to fast vindicators, which I understand makes quite a difference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3947188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrunTeufel Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Wraiths can come in sixes now. A fast vindicator can move 12" and fire its weapon so it can backpaddle quite a good amount. A bad armor save roll (as a marine player we all know that 3+ is not all that) and you are golden because instant death is awesome. They don't have reanimation protocol by themselves either they need a spider with them. Spamming fast vindicators might be useful against necrons these days. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3947193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 It doesn't really matter how many are in the squad. If your opponent isn't an idiot, they'll be spaced out, so you'll only hit two of them at most. They don't need RP. Killing even one is far from a sure thing anyway. They ignore everything when moving, so even getting the shot will be tricky, and you're relying on an AV13 vehicle against an army that kills tanks for fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3947374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 How about Mephy with 4 TH/SS - 1 LC termies escort ...his S10 with Quickening makes him power train....all rends going back at him just LoS onto 3++ termie. EDIT PS. Almost totally forgot about Servin Loth that can tank them with his 2++ all day long while Counterattacking back with ID axe ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3947434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Shoot them with Flyers and/or tarpit them with storm shields? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3947447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toomanyprojects Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Another threat from wraithsis the new formation. It grants then relentless which allows them to overcome their one weakness - not being able to move and fire that fancy particle cannon thing. I'd actually recommend someone like Seth, who hits like a freight train on the charge, or the time and tested old volume of Fire. Or - ally with Necrons and get some of your own... That's what I'm doing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3947452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Servin Loth that can tank them with his 2++ all day long All day? Even with 2++, 6 Wraiths have a good shot at taking him down on the charge, and he's very unlikely to survive a second round. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303208-dealing-with-wraiths/#findComment-3947461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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