phoenix1787 Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I've just come back to my knights after a 3/4 year gap of playing, so as you guys can probably imagine, I have an army based around draigo and his paladins, more specifically draigo, 4 paladin squads, mordak and his ghost, 2 vinidcare assassins and 2 dread knights plus a raider aswell. But i am now reading that paladins for a better word are glorified expensive terminators at best, we don't have assassins anymore I don't think. And well our whole list has become pants... So I could do with a little help and advice one what to do here guys cause I have no idea lol. Ps I don't have the new codex yet either. I have the one from when we were awesome lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Don't buy the new Codex, and find guys that will let you use the old one. Otherwise; Mordrak - Gone. Ghosts - Gone. Draigo - no longer a HQ, you need someone else Paladin - not as expensive, but now not as good Assassins - Nope, not ours any more. You can still use them, but they will be allies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3944922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
raverrn Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Don't buy the new Codex, and find guys that will let you use the old one. Yeah, and only play AD&D! And other old things! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thraxdown Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Run mordrak as a librarian, your paladins as regular termites and the two dreadknights and you have our current best army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 It was painful reading what you wanted to play. None of that is a viable list on our codex now. Dreadknights were probably the best unit in our 5th edition codex, and since they got a hell of a lot cheaper in our 7th they are an auto include. Infact, the rest of the list is tax to get as many dread knights as you can possibly field. GW decided to eradicate any unit entries that didn't have models for legal reasons, which means Mordrak, Ghost Knight and Thawn have all but been rendered as a foot note in the organisation (not even sure in Thawn is mentioned actually) Assassins have been removed and are now their own codex/supplement. Inquisition are also their own. If you want to field an army that we could in 5th then you're going to need 3 codices. Draigo is no longer a HQ but a LoW (Lord of War) which doesnt count as the mandatory HQ, so you also need to take one before you even think about Draigo who doesnt unlock paladins as a troops choice anymore, so you still need to decide to take either Strike or Terminators (which is a no brainer if you read every list from GK as one are useless with Salvo psycannons) So to field Draigo and his chums you will need a HQ and a troop, effectively an ally detachment to bring what we could in 5th to the table. EDIT: Bad spelling mistake. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Yeah, and only play AD&D! And other old things! I know you're being facitious, but DnD 3.5 is better than 4th. 5th looks to be great, but as of yet doesn't have enough source material to really take over from 3.5. So newer, not always better. And our new Codex is significantly worse than the old one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I remember the good old weapon skill 5 days! And we didn't have force weapons, just a +2 strength weapon...And true grit! 2 attack standard.. Those were the days haha. Although we got more variety since then obviously, I still feel we should have a higher blade skill. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Marines aren't allowed to win anymore, unless they are vanilla flavoured. Xenos are king. Expect to lose 2/3 games, even with your best lists. Also, new Necrons are obscene. GW have backdoored Unbound into normal 40k with an actual codex. It's depressing as hell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix1787 Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 Well....... Yer I don't have anything to say about that. So whats the advice then, do I use them as allies now and get another army or do I get another army to allie up to them? I don't really want to put them away to collect dust when they should be out to cause holy hell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 RD, not followed the new Necs. What have they broken now? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Well....... Yer I don't have anything to say about that. So whats the advice then, do I use them as allies now and get another army or do I get another army to allie up to them? I don't really want to put them away to collect dust when they should be out to cause holy hell. Ally with Marines or IG. They're both strong armies in their own right, and we add a melee punch they lack. Dreadknights are also awesome when the enemy has to deal with Stormhammers, Thunderwolves, IG AV14 tanks etc, as they attract the same firepower. RD, not followed the new Necs. What have they broken now? The new Decurion detachment lets you take an entire army of Formations. Min is Overlord, 2x Warriors, 1x Tomb Blades and 1x Immortals. After that, you just add whatever broken formation you like from the codex, 1-10 per Core (ie what I just posted). Also, Decurion gives 4+ Rez rolls, and Overlords let you re-roll 1's when attempting to Rez. Also, Rez overrides Instant Death etc, it's like super FNP. The only thing that negate it are D weapons or Sweeping Advances. I had a game recently where I literally killed 20+ Warriors and Immortals in the Shooting phase, and he made almost all his Rez rolls. 4+ with a re-roll to 1's is insane, especially as its done after failed saves. FNP can at least be negated by high Strength or 'Force', Rez just always happens. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Oh feck. Back to trying to win combat versus 20 manz and sweep Necrons? Well, at least GW are trying to shoe horn Assault back into the game... (How's Guass now?) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Gauss is the same. 6's to wound, 6's to strip a HP off a vehicle. Point being, Necrons never need anti-tank specialists, their basic Troops rip apart most vehicles just fine. Spam gauss flayers into it, profit. Winning combat usually isn't an issue (Termies and Dreadknights go through most Necrons like a blowtorch, they are reduced to Rez rolls which are less powerful when you never save to begin with). It's getting there is the issue. You'll have to eat at least one turn of shooting, not to mention Overwatch as well. At least we have 2+ saves. But I predict any other melee-focused army is gonna die horribly to Necrons. They get around Tau issues by at least tarpitting better. Wraiths are obscene now. T5. THEY BUFFED THE STRONGEST UNIT AGAIN. Oh, and did I mention, in the Decurion there is a formation of Wraith unit+Tomb Spyder+Scarabs? So long as the Spyder is alive, the Wraiths get either Fleet (which they have already because they're Beasts now), Shred (pretty relevant given they rely on Rending) or Reanimation Protocols. Yes, you read that right. They gave Wraiths Rez again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix1787 Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 Don't say that, I sold my SW (4000 points worth) 6 months ago :'( so just to clarify get more dread knights make a new hq, use the paladins as normal terms, anything else worth adding? Then make a new army to ally with? I keep on reading and as you said SW where do I start with them.... Again lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thraxdown Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I wouldn't say winning combat isn't an issue, or at least winning combat quickly enough to still be effective. The new necrons are so resilient now, it's difficult to cut through them with any efficiency. They've turned into a bit of a tarpit, although our force weapons help a bit in that regard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zembar Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Wraiths are obscene now. T5. THEY BUFFED THE STRONGEST UNIT AGAIN. Oh, and did I mention, in the Decurion there is a formation of Wraith unit+Tomb Spyder+Scarabs? So long as the Spyder is alive, the Wraiths get either Fleet (which they have already because they're Beasts now), Shred (pretty relevant given they rely on Rending) or Reanimation Protocols. Yes, you read that right. They gave Wraiths Rez again. To be fair though, they also need to be within 6" of the Spyder in order to keep that bonus. That means moving a lot slower than they normally would. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thraxdown Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Don't say that, I sold my SW (4000 points worth) 6 months ago :'( so just to clarify get more dread knights make a new hq, use the paladins as normal terms, anything else worth adding? Then make a new army to ally with? I keep on reading and as you said SW where do I start with them.... Again lol Purifiers are pretty good as their cleansing flame is very powerful. Since you have draigo you can use gate of infinity to jump around the board and cleansing flame anyone you desire. I think the ally trick people use is placing purifiers in an allies drop pod (space wolves or blood angels) and using that to accurately deliver them turn 1. When I build my lists I basically start off with a ml3 librarian, strike squad or termie squad, two dreadknights and then go from there. The good thing about the detachment in our book is you only have to take one troop choice, and you can roll for your deep striking units turn 1. It makes it easy to play aggressively and more importantly it's fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Well to be honest. I love my knights, and I love playing them. Deepstriking a whole army (or almost a whole army) on turn 1 is fantastic! Especially when you spam out on power armour and incinerator combat squads. But alas.... Allllll our lists have pretty much the same units... With the same tactics.. And gets extremely boring and is very easy to counter as your opponent will always know what you're bringing. Hence why I veeeery recently started a filthy (but colourfull) xenos army to contrast my boring knights. I'll never leave my lovely knights on the shelf..... But if I was you, I'd mix it up a little every now and again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix1787 Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 I've had a thought, dangerous I know but what do you guys think on the idea of making another knight army and renaming and a few conversions etc but using the good codex and claiming them as one of our "lost chapter" or what do you guys suggest of the xenos? Thinking of a change from marines all the time as I have always done bar once when I was on orks lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionicman Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Well to be honest. I love my knights, and I love playing them. Deepstriking a whole army (or almost a whole army) on turn 1 is fantastic! Especially when you spam out on power armour and incinerator combat squads. But alas.... Allllll our lists have pretty much the same units... With the same tactics.. And gets extremely boring and is very easy to counter as your opponent will always know what you're bringing. Hence why I veeeery recently started a filthy (but colourfull) xenos army to contrast my boring knights. I'll never leave my lovely knights on the shelf..... But if I was you, I'd mix it up a little every now and again. 7th is Xenos edition, after tau and eldar we have now another very hard xenos codex while marine dexes (and dark eldar) were toned down. But the codex creep and our codex, I play mass infantry IG now and just laugh at all those S7+ AP2 Rending ID Force whatsoever weapons. Go become a heretic if u like, I will serve the emperor with big guns and willing martyrs instead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3945928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Don't say that, I sold my SW (4000 points worth) 6 months ago :'( so just to clarify get more dread knights make a new hq, use the paladins as normal terms, anything else worth adding? Then make a new army to ally with? I keep on reading and as you said SW where do I start with them.... Again lol I'd say any GK player should own 2x Dreadknights minimum. 3-4 ideally, as that lets you field both the Dreadknight Brethren formation (ie the only Formation that's even vaguely good), and it lets you max out on DK's using double Nemesis Strikeforce (if you can't take the Formation for whatever reason). Space Wolves offer a tonne of utility. Rune Priests are dirt cheap Divination psykers who can ride down in drop pods or buy TDA and join our Termies when Deepstriking. Grey Hunters are probably the best Troops MeQ unit in the game, they do everything and cost no more than Tacticals (who look like feeble lepers by comparison). Thunderwolves are hilarious when paired with DK's, you force the enemy to kill one or the other. Long Fangs offer cheap lascannon spam, and the relic Heavy Support like Sicarians or Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnoughts offer solid firepower on a durable and inexpensive platform. However, I've been doing a lot of thinking about Allies, and I still find vanilla Marines to be best. Draigo+Grav Centurions is just so strong and flexible, it never has a bad matchup (if you ever fight hordes the sheer number of shots and the hurricane bolters still work), and like Thunderwolves it draws firepower off your DK's or vice versa. Scouts with a teleport homer is still hands down the best Deepstrike support in the game for our NSF Terminators, even servo-skulls still cause you to scatter D6 (and they're easier to remove if the enemy has Scouts or Infiltrators). Also, Red Hunters or Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics are amazing on Grav-Centurions, and the HQ Librarian packing Biomancy with Mastery 2 can be pretty absurd when he attaches to the Centurions and puts Endurance on them. I wouldn't say winning combat isn't an issue, or at least winning combat quickly enough to still be effective. The new necrons are so resilient now, it's difficult to cut through them with any efficiency. They've turned into a bit of a tarpit, although our force weapons help a bit in that regard. Yeah, but if he denies 'Force' or you fail the test, it's pretty painful. Also, 'Force' doesn't remove them, it just puts a -1 penalty on their Rez roll. Which, given no sane Necron player is running anything except Decurion, means they still get back up on a 5+. It sounds bad, but when that's rolling 20+ models a turn, a lot get back up. To be fair though, they also need to be within 6" of the Spyder in order to keep that bonus. That means moving a lot slower than they normally would. Not really. Run the Spyder, you lose nothing by doing it. Anyway, the Rez Protocols are only really needed for protecting them from ranged attacks. Once in melee, no one has the damage output to kill them, they're just too tough by default. Purifiers are pretty good as their cleansing flame is very powerful. Since you have draigo you can use gate of infinity to jump around the board and cleansing flame anyone you desire. I think the ally trick people use is placing purifiers in an allies drop pod (space wolves or blood angels) and using that to accurately deliver them turn 1. The problem with Purifier bombing, as opposed to say putting Draigo with Centurions, is that you get one good Psychic phase out of them, then they die horribly to enemy retaliation (they're only MeQ). It is hilarious against say Nids, but against a lot of top-tier armies, they're either meched up or simply don't care (Riptides, Wraithknights, most MC's etc literally don't care). Its fun, and it catches people off guard (especially when you resolve the full 2D6 against every unit in range), but it's not gonna help in the bad matchups we struggle with already. When I build my lists I basically start off with a ml3 librarian, strike squad or termie squad, two dreadknights and then go from there. The good thing about the detachment in our book is you only have to take one troop choice, and you can roll for your deep striking units turn 1. It makes it easy to play aggressively and more importantly it's fun. Don't usually bother with Mastery 3 myself, I find the points go a long way elsewhere in the list. But yeah, NSF is great. I shudder to think where we'd be if we were forced to use CAD or Ally detachment rules...urgh. I've had a thought, dangerous I know but what do you guys think on the idea of making another knight army and renaming and a few conversions etc but using the good codex and claiming them as one of our "lost chapter" or what do you guys suggest of the xenos? Thinking of a change from marines all the time as I have always done bar once when I was on orks lol If you want a change of pace, play one of the top-tier xenos armies. Tau are pure shooting and auto-lose in melee, Eldar are shooting with melee specialists and a tonne of mobility, Necrons just refuse to die and like Tau generally shoot people off the board. 7th is Xenos edition, after tau and eldar we have now another very hard xenos codex while marine dexes (and dark eldar) were toned down. But the codex creep and our codex, I play mass infantry IG now and just laugh at all those S7+ AP2 Rending ID Force whatsoever weapons. Go become a heretic if u like, I will serve the emperor with big guns and willing martyrs instead. The problem is, your IG infantry don't do anything normally (it's just the heavy weapons hiding at the back), and you still remove handfuls of your army every shooting phase. Tau remove one of your key abilities (stacking cover saves with Orders etc), and they can land their large blasts pretty accurately with markerlights. Eldar have a lot of S6/7, a portion of which Ignores Cover as well. Necrons out-attrition you, and you have nothing besides Bullgryns or Allies who can deal with their Wraiths. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3946461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionicman Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 7th is Xenos edition, after tau and eldar we have now another very hard xenos codex while marine dexes (and dark eldar) were toned down. But the codex creep and our codex, I play mass infantry IG now and just laugh at all those S7+ AP2 Rending ID Force whatsoever weapons. Go become a heretic if u like, I will serve the emperor with big guns and willing martyrs instead. The problem is, your IG infantry don't do anything normally (it's just the heavy weapons hiding at the back), and you still remove handfuls of your army every shooting phase. Tau remove one of your key abilities (stacking cover saves with Orders etc), and they can land their large blasts pretty accurately with markerlights. Eldar have a lot of S6/7, a portion of which Ignores Cover as well. Necrons out-attrition you, and you have nothing besides Bullgryns or Allies who can deal with their Wraiths. Nah...there are ways and its definetly not bullgryns. At 3 or 5 pts a single model I just don't care. Serpent shield? <35 points lost, next round his serpent dies. The rest I drown in cheap bodies. But as AM is not the topic here, have some motivational read about winning with GK - although highly situational. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3948163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 RNG on RNG on RNG FTW!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3948207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Nah...there are ways and its definetly not bullgryns. At 3 or 5 pts a single model I just don't care. Serpent shield? <35 points lost, next round his serpent dies. The rest I drown in cheap bodies. But as AM is not the topic here, have some motivational read about winning with GK - although highly situational. I'm just saying IG bring a lot of answers we like. RNG on RNG on RNG FTW!! Pretty much; - Rolls on Sanctic, gets 6 - Rolls on Warlord, gets Turn 1 no scatter - Manifests twice with no Perils on 15 dice - Scatter doesn't screw him over either time - IG somehow don't just AP2 the everloving Throne out of that Terminator unit Even with loaded dice that's hard to pull off. Talk about statistical outlier lel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303220-what-happened-to-the-knights/#findComment-3948570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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