Math-hammering Belial

[Chaplain Lucifer]

After a discusion with another member in the army lists forum, about Belial I decided that the best way to see what is so good about Belial and what would be his optimal loadout would be some number crunching. So with the help of a mathammer calculator I put up some work on calculations.

 

So the crux of the matter was the following. A member was defending that the best loadout for Belial would be either TH&SS or LC's. The SoS would not be worth it, might as well take a regular Company master similarly equiped (artificier armor, storm bolter, mace of redemption, digi weapons ) for 30 or so less points.

I refuted the argument because from the get go, if you want DW terminators as Troops you can't have a Company Master instead of Belial. So, 1-0 for Belial because he can achieve something the Company Master can't.

Belial also bring a precision shot into the table and an accurate teleport for him and a squad so In my book that is worth the 30 or so points gap.

 

But what about Close Combat? How does the 3 version of Belial compare to each other and to the Company Master:

 

Here's how it went:

 

I similated a charge with each Belial against each type of opponent, taking the most common ones.

 

VS T4 with 3+ save

Belial with TH - 2,22 wounds

Belial with SoS- 2,59 wounds

Belial with LCs - 2,5 wounds

CM MoR- 2,59 wounds

All are somewhat balanced but the Sword and Stormbolters get an edge.

 

 

Vs T3 3+ or worse

Belial with TH - 2,22 wounds

Belial with SoS- 2,59 wounds

Belial with LCs - 2,96 wounds

CM MoR- 2,59 wounds

Winner here is the LC's because it has more attacks (5 instead of 4) but only the TH is seemingly lagging behind

 

Vs T6 3+

Belial with TH - 2,22 wounds

Belial with SoS- 2,59 wounds

Belial with LCs - 1,07 wounds

CM MoR- 2,07 wounds

The aquiles heal of lightning claws hows up. Even with re-rolls to wound is hard to beat T6. The mace of redemption lags behind the SoS because SoS just wounds everything in 2+.

 

Vs T5 3+

Belial with TH - 2,22 wounds

Belial with SoS- 2,59 wounds
Belial with LCs - 1,85 wounds

CM MoR- 2,59 wounds

Again decrease of performance by LC's

 

Vs T8 3+

Belial with TH - 1,33 wounds

Belial with SoS- 2,59 wounds
Belial with LCs - 0 wounds

CM MoR- 1,03 wounds

Big winner is SoS, everybody else falls behind.

 

Vs T4 2+

Belial with TH - 2,22 wounds

Belial with SoS- 0,43 wounds
Belial with LCs - 0,41 wounds

CM MoR- 0,43 wounds

The advantage of AP2 becomes evident. Everyone is way behind of the TH

 

Vs Chaos T4 2+

Belial with TH - 3 wounds

Belial with SoS- 0,5 wounds
Belial with LCs - 0,36 wounds

CM MoR- 3,02 wounds

Here is the only situation the Mace of Redemption beats the Sword of secrets.

 

So what are my conclusions after these numbers?

Belial with TH&SS is the most reliable to have, because he will be good against everything except T8 where he is only average. Also some other factors to have in mind.

Belial will have a higher invulnerable save that will offer him better protection and can "tank" shots for his unit and will be able to tackle Vehicles with ease. The downside is that he will strike last.

 

Belial with Lightning Claws is the least reliable to have. Unless you face only opponents with T3 save and you have no need for a better inv save then in almost every ocasion is better to take one of the other Belial versions.

 

Belial with SoS has higher damage output than the TH in majority of cases and also has the advantage of I5 so he can spare his squad mates or himself of some hurt. So in my eyes it is as valid as the TH version except if you face lots of 2+ saves or you face too many vehicles and you need every tank hunter you can get.

 

The Company Master, well, even if we are talking about a non DW army he only has the edge (and in CC) if you face Chaos. Still if you have even a single squad of terminators in the army and you're undecided about HQ, taking a Belial instead of a similarly CM will give you more bang for the buck... not only you get an extra Obj Sec unit, you also get to deepstrike it accuratelly and a few extra bells and whistles.

[Master Avoghai]

I've just achieved my Belial conversion with TH... Meaning I use SoS since the release of our codex in 2012...

He rarely disapointed me.

 

Indeed the 2+ save can be an issue but you rarely face lots of 2+ unless playing against DW ;) (GK actually is the only that comes to my mind)

 

I remember the day I've played against a friend with its eldar(who actually does play DA too).

He was so confident with its wraith lord that he challenged Belial. 4A = 3hits thanks to master crafted => 3W => dead wraith lord

:D

[aura_enchanted]

I've just achieved my Belial conversion with TH... Meaning I use SoS since the release of our codex in 2012...

He rarely disapointed me.

Indeed the 2+ save can be an issue but you rarely face lots of 2+ unless playing against DW (GK actually is the only that comes to my mind)

I remember the day I've played against a friend with its eldar(who actually does play DA too).

He was so confident with its wraith lord that he challenged Belial. 4A = 3hits thanks to master crafted => 3W => dead wraith lord

which would of resulted in the exact same outcome had he been any other company master with th/ss, artifices which has the exact same statline

i used the MoR specifically as an alternative to the SoS as everytime it does similar results not as an alternative to lcs or th and the math hammer above clearly shows that (omitting t8 2+ but their arent that many situations where this comes up and in most of those situations belial and the company master are dead anyway). another thing that math hammer doesnt take into consideration is multiple rounds of cc, belial doesnt have the luxury of a concussive blinding weapon, so in the event their is a second round of cc between him and his foe belial is in exactly the same position he was in the previous round of combat, meanwhile the opponent of the cm can be under the influence of blind and concussive. meaning hes now in a more favourable position than belial would be in the second round of combat (should there be one). as now the attacks made against the CM are far less competent

and then when comparing lcs's between the cm and belial the cm will always have MC on his melee weapons and belial does not however their statlines (being the same means that both will do just as well (on paper approximately))

in addition in the th/ss build on the cm:

artifices, digital, th/ss, you have a savings of 35 points (enough for a dt to a power armored unit) or enough to get yourself a shooting weapon like the foe smiter or just take a free pistol and still remain cheaper than belial and now you can attack at range, which is something belial cant do at all which is again useful indeed

i personnaly think that if we get a new codex soon belial is going to need to take a huge price cut, easily 30-50 points in order to become a true alternative to a Cm as opposed to inferior as we are losing our gimmick of making x troops next go around. and one cant always look at the here and now, the future must be considered.

[Master Avoghai]

which would of resulted in the exact same outcome had he been any other company master with th/ss, artifices which has the exact same statline

I just quote chaplain Lucifer to answer

 

 

Vs T8 3+

Belial with TH - 1,33 wounds

Belial with SoS- 2,59 wounds

Belial with LCs - 0 wounds

CM MoR- 1,03 wounds

Big winner is SoS, everybody else falls behind

I don't really think 2,59 is the same as 1,03...

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Aura_enchanted: There aren' creatures with T8 and 2+ at least to my knowledge. The calculus were made using the most common Toughness and saves around.

 

 

another thing that math hammer doesnt take into consideration is multiple rounds of cc, belial doesnt have the luxury of a concussive blinding weapon, so in the event their is a second round of cc between him and his foe belial is in exactly the same position he was in the previous round of combat, meanwhile the opponent of the cm can be under the influence of blind and concussive.

And you don't take in consideration that most of the time Belial or another HQ will not be facing other HQ but the average 1W character, for which concussive and blind are irrelevant.  If you are in a duel with another HQ sure, blind and concussive can make a difference.

 

But I think you failed to see the point of the exercise. It was to show which are the most effective Belial weapon loadouts and to show that a CM will still struggle to be as cost effective as Belial if the army includes at least one Terminator squad.

[Raztalin]

I've just achieved my Belial conversion with TH... Meaning I use SoS since the release of our codex in 2012...

He rarely disapointed me.

Indeed the 2+ save can be an issue but you rarely face lots of 2+ unless playing against DW (GK actually is the only that comes to my mind)

I remember the day I've played against a friend with its eldar(who actually does play DA too).

He was so confident with its wraith lord that he challenged Belial. 4A = 3hits thanks to master crafted => 3W => dead wraith lord

which would of resulted in the exact same outcome had he been any other company master with th/ss, artifices which has the exact same statline

i used the MoR specifically as an alternative to the SoS as everytime it does similar results not as an alternative to lcs or th and the math hammer above clearly shows that (omitting t8 2+ but their arent that many situations where this comes up and in most of those situations belial and the company master are dead anyway). another thing that math hammer doesnt take into consideration is multiple rounds of cc, belial doesnt have the luxury of a concussive blinding weapon, so in the event their is a second round of cc between him and his foe belial is in exactly the same position he was in the previous round of combat, meanwhile the opponent of the cm can be under the influence of blind and concussive. meaning hes now in a more favourable position than belial would be in the second round of combat (should there be one). as now the attacks made against the CM are far less competent

and then when comparing lcs's between the cm and belial the cm will always have MC on his melee weapons and belial does not however their statlines (being the same means that both will do just as well (on paper approximately))

in addition in the th/ss build on the cm:

artifices, digital, th/ss, you have a savings of 35 points (enough for a dt to a power armored unit) or enough to get yourself a shooting weapon like the foe smiter or just take a free pistol and still remain cheaper than belial and now you can attack at range, which is something belial cant do at all which is again useful indeed

i personnaly think that if we get a new codex soon belial is going to need to take a huge price cut, easily 30-50 points in order to become a true alternative to a Cm as opposed to inferior as we are losing our gimmick of making x troops next go around. and one cant always look at the here and now, the future must be considered.

@aura_enchanted - Out of interest - how does the CM get MC on his claws? I dont see a codex entry for that and wondering what i'm over looking :)

[Solrac]

Thanks for this Lucifer :)

 

Just bought myself a Strike Force Ultra Captain I'm gonna convert into my SoS/SB Belial.

 

With the comments on the blind and concussion of the MoR vs SoS it would only really matter against a 2+ save HQ where the fight is likely to last more than one round. Of most of the 2+ Save HQs running around most are Initiative or Toughness 4 or more meaning you can't really rely on the concussion and blind.

 

With that being said the bottom line is, as Lucifer already pointed out,  if someone is building a Deathwing army and doesn't want Tac or Scout squads then there is no point to even compare Belial with another HQ.

[aura_enchanted]

I've just achieved my Belial conversion with TH... Meaning I use SoS since the release of our codex in 2012...

He rarely disapointed me.

Indeed the 2+ save can be an issue but you rarely face lots of 2+ unless playing against DW (GK actually is the only that comes to my mind)

I remember the day I've played against a friend with its eldar(who actually does play DA too).

He was so confident with its wraith lord that he challenged Belial. 4A = 3hits thanks to master crafted => 3W => dead wraith lord

which would of resulted in the exact same outcome had he been any other company master with th/ss, artifices which has the exact same statline

i used the MoR specifically as an alternative to the SoS as everytime it does similar results not as an alternative to lcs or th and the math hammer above clearly shows that (omitting t8 2+ but their arent that many situations where this comes up and in most of those situations belial and the company master are dead anyway). another thing that math hammer doesnt take into consideration is multiple rounds of cc, belial doesnt have the luxury of a concussive blinding weapon, so in the event their is a second round of cc between him and his foe belial is in exactly the same position he was in the previous round of combat, meanwhile the opponent of the cm can be under the influence of blind and concussive. meaning hes now in a more favourable position than belial would be in the second round of combat (should there be one). as now the attacks made against the CM are far less competent

and then when comparing lcs's between the cm and belial the cm will always have MC on his melee weapons and belial does not however their statlines (being the same means that both will do just as well (on paper approximately))

in addition in the th/ss build on the cm:

artifices, digital, th/ss, you have a savings of 35 points (enough for a dt to a power armored unit) or enough to get yourself a shooting weapon like the foe smiter or just take a free pistol and still remain cheaper than belial and now you can attack at range, which is something belial cant do at all which is again useful indeed

i personnaly think that if we get a new codex soon belial is going to need to take a huge price cut, easily 30-50 points in order to become a true alternative to a Cm as opposed to inferior as we are losing our gimmick of making x troops next go around. and one cant always look at the here and now, the future must be considered.

@aura_enchanted - Out of interest - how does the CM get MC on his claws? I dont see a codex entry for that and wondering what i'm over looking

digital weapon is essentially the same thing as master craft,

master crafted allows for a single re-roll of a to hit roll in a single round of CC, and digital weapon allows for the same thing its a 10 point upgrade under the special equipment table

[aura_enchanted]

 

which would of resulted in the exact same outcome had he been any other company master with th/ss, artifices which has the exact same statline

I just quote chaplain Lucifer to answer

 

 

Vs T8 3+

Belial with TH - 1,33 wounds

Belial with SoS- 2,59 wounds

Belial with LCs - 0 wounds

CM MoR- 1,03 wounds

Big winner is SoS, everybody else falls behind

I don't really think 2,59 is the same as 1,03...

 

 

ye it doesnt but in every other case its basically the same thing, and at that point belial and the company master are probably dead anyway as they are probably making their invuls against ID attacks of s8+ or attacks with ID anyway. 

[Raztalin]

I've just achieved my Belial conversion with TH... Meaning I use SoS since the release of our codex in 2012...

He rarely disapointed me.

Indeed the 2+ save can be an issue but you rarely face lots of 2+ unless playing against DW (GK actually is the only that comes to my mind)

I remember the day I've played against a friend with its eldar(who actually does play DA too).

He was so confident with its wraith lord that he challenged Belial. 4A = 3hits thanks to master crafted => 3W => dead wraith lord

which would of resulted in the exact same outcome had he been any other company master with th/ss, artifices which has the exact same statline

i used the MoR specifically as an alternative to the SoS as everytime it does similar results not as an alternative to lcs or th and the math hammer above clearly shows that (omitting t8 2+ but their arent that many situations where this comes up and in most of those situations belial and the company master are dead anyway). another thing that math hammer doesnt take into consideration is multiple rounds of cc, belial doesnt have the luxury of a concussive blinding weapon, so in the event their is a second round of cc between him and his foe belial is in exactly the same position he was in the previous round of combat, meanwhile the opponent of the cm can be under the influence of blind and concussive. meaning hes now in a more favourable position than belial would be in the second round of combat (should there be one). as now the attacks made against the CM are far less competent

and then when comparing lcs's between the cm and belial the cm will always have MC on his melee weapons and belial does not however their statlines (being the same means that both will do just as well (on paper approximately))

in addition in the th/ss build on the cm:

artifices, digital, th/ss, you have a savings of 35 points (enough for a dt to a power armored unit) or enough to get yourself a shooting weapon like the foe smiter or just take a free pistol and still remain cheaper than belial and now you can attack at range, which is something belial cant do at all which is again useful indeed

i personnaly think that if we get a new codex soon belial is going to need to take a huge price cut, easily 30-50 points in order to become a true alternative to a Cm as opposed to inferior as we are losing our gimmick of making x troops next go around. and one cant always look at the here and now, the future must be considered.

@aura_enchanted - Out of interest - how does the CM get MC on his claws? I dont see a codex entry for that and wondering what i'm over looking

digital weapon is essentially the same thing as master craft,

master crafted allows for a single re-roll of a to hit roll in a single round of CC, and digital weapon allows for the same thing its a 10 point upgrade under the special equipment table

Almost - Digi weapons is a single reroll to wound per round of combat IIRC - but LC's come with Shred allwoing all failed to Wound Rolls each round anyways, so why add on Digi Weapons on LC's?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Actually digi-weapons is a re-roll to hit. So it always pays to it if you have points to spare.

[Isiah]

Great topic. Thanks for the mathhammer comparision work CL :tu:.

 

Cheers

I

[Raztalin]

Actually digi-weapons is a re-roll to hit. So it always pays to it if you have points to spare.

 

Hi Luci - You obviously have different rules to mine... Both my  DA eDex and C:SM eDex both list Digi Weapons as re-roll 1 single to wound roll per Assault phase...I dont recall it being any different thought tbh.  Could it be possible you have miss read it?  :)

[Master Avoghai]

ye it doesnt but in every other case its basically the same thing, and at that point belial and the company master are probably dead anyway as they are probably making their invuls against ID attacks of s8+ or attacks with ID anyway.

Well, I was replying specifically on the fact that a GM with MoR would have done the same as my Belial against the WL...

And only to that.

 

As for the dead Belial issue, in this case WL was I4 hence with a SoS and I5 I was taking few risks. More than a Belial with TH actually.

 

High T (>6) creatures have often a bad I so you can easily profit from the SoS.

 

As for the digi weapons they give a reroll to W not to hit Luc', that's what annoyed me when equipping my company master with a TH... I wish I had a reroll to hit rather than to wound...

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Actually digi-weapons is a re-roll to hit. So it always pays to it if you have points to spare.

Hi Luci - You obviously have different rules to mine... Both my DA eDex and C:SM eDex both list Digi Weapons as re-roll 1 single to wound roll per Assault phase...I dont recall it being any different thought tbh. Could it be possible you have miss read it?

Yes.. my fault. It's my old cogitator banks that sometimes fail to keep up with new versions of wargear or sometimes just simple misread.

[Raztalin]

Actually digi-weapons is a re-roll to hit. So it always pays to it if you have points to spare.

Hi Luci - You obviously have different rules to mine... Both my DA eDex and C:SM eDex both list Digi Weapons as re-roll 1 single to wound roll per Assault phase...I dont recall it being any different thought tbh. Could it be possible you have miss read it?

Yes.. my fault. It's my old cogitator banks that sometimes fail to keep up with new versions of wargear or sometimes just simple misread.

Hehe - nps man - I was questioning my own memory and then copies of eDex's for a while!!!

Shame the previous options for Belial werent carried forwrd into this one... MC LC's or TH/SS would have been a great alternative to the SoS and SB :)

[Solrac]

Hehe - nps man - I was questioning my own memory and then copies of eDex's for a while!!!

Shame the previous options for Belial werent carried forwrd into this one... MC LC's or TH/SS would have been a great alternative to the SoS and SB

To be honest I don't know why he doesn't have master crafted on his Claws or Hammer. It's not like Belial would just pick up any old weapon.

[shabbadoo]

It has to do with not wanting a named character to have access to every single thing.  Shrike kinda needs to have his own special belly button that somebody else doesn't also have as a simple option, nor does he need a special Lysander-ish thunder hammer.  As far as close combat weapons are concerned, the Dark Angels are all about the Heavenfall Blades (the Mace of Redemption is nearly as much of a travesty as The Burning Blade is), and so that is what Belial's special wargear has to do with.

 

Good comparison from Chaplain Lucifer though.  As we already knew, the biggest deciding factors as to what you should be hunting with Belial, based on what he is armed with, are the all powerful high Toughness value and  2+ armor save.

[JeffJedi]

Well, you can always smack a tank with the hammer if you have to, another point for the TH version.

[[TA]Typher]

If you add in the fact that the TH is much better vs vehicles, can causes ID to MEQs and that the SS can allow you to tank shots for your low model count DW army in a way that his IH can not then your comparision is seen in a more realistic light.

[Master Avoghai]

Fact is TH is interesting, and i think we were all aware of it.

 

Point of this comparison is that

 

1- SoS is really not bad

2- LC, and to a lesser extent, MoR is not more interesting than SoS like Luc's friend seemed to say.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

If you add in the fact that the TH is much better vs vehicles, can causes ID to MEQs and that the SS can allow you to tank shots for your low model count DW army in a way that his IH can not then your comparision is seen in a more realistic light.

I actually refer the better inv save on the review and I actually thought the Tank Hunting was a given but I will update the original post to be more precise. Cheers!!