Necrons and you

[SyNidus]

So how do the Knights of Titan handle Necrons?

 

I see extensive use of Force weapons being one of the primary means, as is the use of our assault and psychic phase.

 

However, they have the advantage in the movement phase and shooting as well methinks. What do you guys reckon?

[Gentlemanloser]

Didn't think Force would do anything?

 

It doesn't stop RP.

[Lucien Eilam]

Instant Death is -1 to RP.

[ChaoticEric]

I honestly think we're just going to die against the new necron codex. They can take anything we can throw at them with their new save and they'll dish it out harder back at us with mass shooting. It's depressing to calculate what kind of saves their basic troops have for a fraction of the cost of ours.

 

The only effective thing I can think of is incinerators to force them to take as many (multiple) saves as possible.

 

What wraiths are going to do to us with 12" move ignoring terrain, rending, i5, t5 and 3++/4+ for 40p a piece is not even fun.

[thraxdown]

They are so tough to kill now it's absurd. I had my first game against them friday, and though I pulled out a win I saw how tough they are going to be. Be prepared to throw a ton of firepower at them, force failed saves and then see it negated by a 4+reanimate. I was able to win by allying the gerantius knight and blowing up his ghost arks (which I would have struggled to do without that 36"melta gun) and by the most atrocious dice rolls my opponent has probably ever had. If you go into combat with them, don't be surprised if you're there for awhile. Best bet against crons is to bypass their armor save so they only get the Rp. These guys are going to be good and we will struggle esp with our limited numbers and firepower.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Necrons are broken. The Decurion is basically allowing Apoc formations into normal 40k, with zero real drawbacks and a whole heap of bonuses. 

[Quozzo]

I still don't and will never understand why necrons get reanimate when FnP is pretty much the same mechanic, with the obvious clinch that instant death means you're going to die, no matter how much you don't feel it. Reanimation Protocols should at least be on a 5+ to follow the nerf of FnP from 5th ed. Can necrons even get FnP? Do they even feel? If not there is no reason why our NFW should be any less effective against them, they still have a soul after all.

[angrom]

As I'm playing Necron as my main army i can tell you that they are not so broken.
They definitely got some improvement about their troops survivability ( And it was welcomed, Necrons troops were ridiculously easy to eradicate in the last codex)
but the overall codex got some balance.
Necrons characters have always been their major joker for close fight and they got some nerf. (now they only have access to 3+ save and 4++ and no mind scarabs )

The 4+ for PR ask you to play a specific formation that is really restrictive (have to take 3 troops minimum and now warriors are by 10 minimum).
also they don't have any anti-flyers anymore so if you play a stormraven it will be safe.

Their weakness is still the same  (their Init and the assault moral test) . just rush in front of them (like GK can do) tight your ass for a turn (abuse psychic powers).
Then if you still have some survivors you will shred them in pieces.
Necrons have only 3+ saves maximum which is good for us and Force will bring down their PR to 6+ or 5+ if they have the formations.
the result of the assault should be in your favor and they will have to take a disastrous moral test.
The only real threats are the wraiths ( always) and the praetorian with their 3++ save (try to make a saturation of force attacks)

[Quozzo]

The only real threats are the wraiths ( always) and the praetorian with their 3++ save (try to make a saturation of force attacks)

Gatling Psilencer ✓

[Gentlemanloser]

S4, AP- versus T5, 3++

 

Incinerators would probably be better.

[Quozzo]

2/3 wound = 8/12, 2/3 miss = 5.3 wounds, which 2/3 gets saved = 1.7 wounds. You might be right

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I still don't and will never understand why necrons get reanimate when FnP is pretty much the same mechanic, with the obvious clinch that instant death means you're going to die, no matter how much you don't feel it. Reanimation Protocols should at least be on a 5+ to follow the nerf of FnP from 5th ed. Can necrons even get FnP? Do they even feel? If not there is no reason why our NFW should be any less effective against them, they still have a soul after all. 

 

You could roll FNP on a Warlord trait I suppose. I don't know of any in-codex sources of FNP though. Some of the Mysterious Objectives grant FNP too, IIRC. 

 

The reason Rez is different is to sell the army. They're meant to be space robot zombies. 

As I'm playing Necron as my main army i can tell you that they are not so broken.

They definitely got some improvement about their troops survivability ( And it was welcomed, Necrons troops were ridiculously easy to eradicate in the last codex)

but the overall codex got some balance.

Necrons characters have always been their major joker for close fight and they got some nerf. (now they only have access to 3+ save and 4++ and no mind scarabs )

 

What balance? Everything got buffed. For Throne's sake, even Flayed Ones aren't totally useless anymore (they're just mostly useless). 

No one cares about the characters. Also, they got buffed anyway. Zandrekh is insane, provided you can keep him alive he's a gigantic toolbox of 'let me steal your special rules, or change Warlord traits to suit the situation'. He's not even expensive, in larger games I can see him being a staple. Overlords grant re-rolls to 1's on Rez rolls, how is that not a buff? 

Their saves barely matter when they ignore death on a 4+ (except against ID where its a 5+). 

The 4+ for PR ask you to play a specific formation that is really restrictive (have to take 3 troops minimum and now warriors are by 10 minimum).

also they don't have any anti-flyers anymore so if you play a stormraven it will be safe.

 

Oh, you mean the Formation detachment with zero drawbacks? Overlord, 2x 10-man Warriors, 5x Immortals, 3x Tomb Blades. Even at 1k, it still lets you take any formation you can squeeze in. Not to mention due to the fact Warriors and Immortals now don't die much, you can take large squads without much drawback? Gauss means you don't need dedicated anti-tank elsewhere, and it's by default anti-infantry as well. 

 

Raven? Er, ignoring the Flyer Formations for a moment, you still get Night Scythes on the cheap as dedicated transports. With gauss firepower or even tesla, you will ping its 3HP off fairly easily in a duel. 

Their weakness is still the same  (their Init and the assault moral test) . just rush in front of them (like GK can do) tight your ass for a turn (abuse psychic powers).

Then if you still have some survivors you will shred them in pieces.

 

You have to win combat though. And if you're the Necron player, you just hold all your dispel back for the 'Force' test, then throw all your dispel dice at it. DK's usually make it in, but Terminators suffer for being T4 (they're pretty easy to wound, especially with large Warrior squad rapid-firing them to death). Not to mention Necrons have Wraiths for bailing them out of combat, and they're fast enough to intercept any GK assault. 

Necrons have only 3+ saves maximum which is good for us and Force will bring down their PR to 6+ or 5+ if they have the formations.

the result of the assault should be in your favor and they will have to take a disastrous moral test.

 

Only if you win combat, and they fail Morale, and they fail the Initiative roll off (the last one is pretty likely but it's still a random roll). I don't see Necrons ever using CAD, so it's usually a 4+ or 5+ if you turn on 'Force'. 

Gatling Psilencer ✓ 

 

Complete waste of time. Assuming you hit, wound, and they fail armour saves, they still get back up on a 5+. 

[Brom MKIV]

Crons are now bar none the most durable army in the game. Like fantasy VC lord level (or last time I played that stinking system anyway). 

 

First the good news: anni barges, night scythes, MSS, CCB and tesla all took significant nerfs. These all directly effect the former tier 1 power build of av13 spam + wraithwing and night scythes. 

 

 

The bad news: GW hands out ignores cover like candy to xenos armies. Now this isn't a real issue for us thankfully, maybe even a bonus, but plenty of other armies will suffer. I'm talking about tomb blades if your unfamiliar. For 22 pts each you get a s4/t5 jetbike with S5 ap4 rapid fire twin linked GAUSS that ignores cover. Oh and 3+ armour plus RP 5+. Each unit drops a wave serpent a turn and can even throw down on flyers/Iks.

 

Enter the decurion. A new formation so mind bogglingly flexible its ridiculous. A single formation of near unlimited formations limited only by pts. Each does include a tax of sorts in compulsory choices but honestly they are all so solid the tax is very minimal for most and non existent for others. 

 

I have been doing some extensive tinkering and testing with the new cron dex (know your enemy and all that) and I honestly don't think this new formation is the most busted thing, UNLESS your spamming bikes (or possibly av13). You can fit 3x10 compulsory tomb blades with 4+ RP and reroll 1s within 12" of the HQ.

 

Back to the good news:

The above combined with harvest wraiths (basically fearless TWC with 4+ RP within 12" of the spyder) may just be what the doc ordered to dethrone both eldar and tau. Wraiths still arent the most killy things around but they will pit and soak like nothing we've ever seen. These two units are custom made to kill skimmer based armies. CC oriented armies otoh have less to fear IMO.

 

 

So what do GKs do? Throw NDKs at it like usual Lol.

Seriously though, the cron book is pretty amazing overall with an metric fukton of viable builds to explore so its too early to really say what will emerge as competitive.

I'd say there will be multiple builds. AV13 wall is back but without anni barges (24" salvo 10 independent targeting flayer arrays on all arks + much better DD cannon also with arrays), flyer spam (new doom scythes are much improved), combat oriented crons with multiple harvest wraith formations, and tomb blade based decurions are the biggest that come to mind. And any combo of the above. 

 

As is par for the xenos course crons can put down blistering firepower that threatens anything due to gauss, but outside of a few things like destroyer cults they still lack ways to efficiently crack armour 2+ at range (and for the most part in CC as well due to init 2).

 

IMO dealing with anything of the non-wraith variety in assault is preferable since sweaps get around RP as does force meaning at best they are looking at only a single 5+ RP save (6+ if not decurion) and init 2 is almost auto swept territory. Unfortunately no sweaps is a huge setback for TDA in this match but luckily dreadknights don't care.   

 

In short I feel crons have real potential to be top tier but GKs for once shouldn't find the match as hard as some others will (although probably not mcuh better than previous for us). 

[Gentlemanloser]

And here were were, expecting 7th to nerfed everything down to bare bones blandness and stop 'codex creep'.

 

Guess we were all wrong.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Annihilation Barges we knew were going to be nerfed. 90pts was always too cheap. Even at 120, they're still inexpensive and in their stupid formation with the Doomsday Ark (where they can donate their AV13 shield to it when it loses it), they're still great gunboats. 

 

We're in real trouble against Necrons I feel. They can jam up our assault attempts with Wraiths (who are basically perfectly designed to tarpit Dreadknights, especially in their Formation that grants RP), then vape our infantry with massed fire and Doomsday Arks (railgun large blasts = dead Terminators). On top of that, in Decurion, they're just impossible to kill off outside of melee (and as we all know, GW hates melee so good luck getting there). 

 

Triarch Praetorians are still medicore garbage, due to GW still undecided if they should be a ranged unit or an assault unit (they end up being meh at both). Flayed Ones are still a joke, because horde armies don't exist outside of Orks, so their chosen prey simply never appear. Lycheguard still fall to Stormhammers, Dreadknights and TWC, it's sad how bad they are compared to Wraiths. The Stalker is boss though, especially in its formation.

 

On the plus side, I will feel nothing but boundless joy watching Necrons stomp Tau and Eldar into the dirt. I'm bored seeing TripTide and Serpent Spam dominate. 

And here were were, expecting 7th to nerfed everything down to bare bones blandness and stop 'codex creep'.

 

Guess we were all wrong.

 

Kek. Heard the same thing when 5th and even 6th came out. Never happened, not even once. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, that what seemed to be happening, with the Codex releases around 7th's release.

 

I bet Eldar get uber buffed now, or something.

 

My care cup is now officially empty.

[Brom MKIV]

Well anni barges arent horrible but they are straight outclassed now. The nerf to tesla cannot be overstated. Its a huge hit to what I'm used to facing and I believe it goes a long way to balance units like harvest wraiths. Honestly I think people have overlooked flayed ones so far though. 260 pts gets you a whopping 5 S4 attacks each on the charge with SHRED. Oh and they infiltrate/DS and have 4+ armour and 5+ RP, or 4+ RP if decurion or with a tek attacked. Anything stuck in there probably ain't coming back out.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well, that what seemed to be happening, with the Codex releases around 7th's release.

 

I bet Eldar get uber buffed now, or something.

 

My care cup is now officially empty.

 

Just be sanguine man. No point getting mad about it. GW just wanna sell the new black, whatever that is this year. Who knows, maybe in 8th Marines will be back on top. They've got all the tools to be a top-tier threat (and vanilla usually place in top 5's and so on, they just don't win due to xenos). 

Well anni barges arent horrible but they are straight outclassed now. The nerf to tesla cannot be overstated. Its a huge hit to what I'm used to facing and I believe it goes a long way to balance units like harvest wraiths

 

Considering they cost the same as the average Predator (and still cheaper than say a Russ battle tank), I'd say they're balanced now. 90pts was absurd, it was the auto-include choice last edition. Telsa needed a hit, no one was taking gauss. Now that Knight-Titans are a thing, I think gauss will be back in vogue for Crons. Tesla still does work, its just not broken anymore (more hits when Snap Shooting was retarded and I'm glad GW figured that one out). 

Honestly I think people have overlooked flayed ones so far though. 260 pts gets you a whopping 5 S4 attacks each on the charge with SHRED. Oh and they infiltrate/DS and have 4+ armour and 5+ RP, or 4+ RP if decurion or with a tek attacked. Anything stuck in there probably ain't coming back out.

 

>pure melee

laughingeldarandtau.jpeg

 

Come on man. We're the melee Marines of 40k, and we even have decent guns to soften things up for a charge, and we still get rekt by xenos. Flayed Ones aren't even close to being good. If spamming S4 punches was all it took to be a good melee unit, Assault Marines would be awesome. 

 

I agree they're durable, but heavy incinerator and psycannon put them into the grave pretty easily, and in melee they're completely outclassed by all our viable units. They'd make a decent tarpit, if Wraiths didn't exist (not to mention Wraiths actually kill everything and are even harder to slay). 

[Brom MKIV]

I'm saying melee vs the decurion which trades offense for defense.

 

Wraiths are more durable than flayed ones but their damage output is meh in the larger scheme of things. It's the D Lords that really boosted them and that ain't changed. 100 shred attacks and a much larger footprint is better in a lot of ways although not against us. Not saying they are strictly better than wraiths but they are good and under the radar.

[SyNidus]

It seems like the answer is to overwhelm with assault and NDKs...

So does this mean that i'll need to bring 3 NDKs to my tourney? ( http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/302742-1850-pure-gk-tourney-list-need-help/?p=3947305 any and all help and feedback is appreciated, the GK are still a new army to me, but i'm confident i can pull out a win if I play it right.)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Wraiths are more durable than flayed ones but their damage output is meh in the larger scheme of things. It's the D Lords that really boosted them and that ain't changed. 100 shred attacks and a much larger footprint is better in a lot of ways although not against us. Not saying they are strictly better than wraiths but they are good and under the radar. 

 

Wat

 

T5, 2 wounds. 3+ invulnerable and 4+ Rez (or Shred if you really need it). Beast type. Rending S6 attacks. Lash Whips to ensure they go first in combat. 

 

vs

 

T4, 1 wound, 4+ armour, 4+ Rez, S4 Shred attacks. 

 

It's not even vaguely the same. Wraiths are easily one of the best assault units in the game, and that was before they got buffed. T5 is a big deal, it makes that second wound so much better (it's why Centurions are a staple for vanilla Marines), and unless they have S10 you still Rez on a 4+. Battle cannons, Riptide blasts  etc will vape Flayed Ones quite reliably, and 5+ Rez is a lot less effective. Wraiths meanwhile survive both massed fire and low AP, and they're even a pain in melee to kill. 

So does this mean that i'll need to bring 3 NDKs to my tourney? 

 

I'd bring 4. Necrons will probably kill/tarpit 2, that leaves 2 spare to run amok in their lines, slapping Monoliths to death etc. 

[Brom MKIV]

Wraiths are durable they aren't that killy. Do the math 6 wraiths vs 20 flayed ones with wraiths charging at init 5. Anything without serious volume or ap4 isn't getting rid of FOs either. Both tarpit, the wraiths much better vs ap3. The wraiths are faster overall but infiltrate is plenty fast for t2 assault. The FOs deny real estate, bubble wrap, multi assaults and handles hordes better. You can add RP to the wraiths via harvest formation but then their cost increases 120 pts but damage output doesn't. I'm not evaluating these just from a gk perspective however.

 

I feel wraiths are more obviously good but flayed ones are actually in the same ball park match dependent. And TWC are still better than either IMO.

[Zeratul29]

Wraiths have 12" move(so move faster than termies) 2W and T5(better than termies) Str 6 base(better than termies) have fleet for making crucial assault move now(better than termies) have rending so can get through 2+ saves(better than the 10 pts we have to spend) 3 attacks base(better than termies) and for 3 pts they become I5, wrecking most everything in the game at the same time or before we strike(WAY better than termies) Wraithwing is alive and well, people will take 18 wraiths. You won't be able to stop it. They will hit before your DK and kill it, 18-24 attacks, bet you will lost that assault with just one DK, and then you're still left with 12 more wraiths! And that's not even counting the rest of the shenanigans the army is pulling at the same time.

[Quozzo]

Wraiths have 12" move(so move faster than termies) 2W and T5(better than termies) Str 6 base(better than termies) have fleet for making crucial assault move now(better than termies) have rending so can get through 2+ saves(better than the 10 pts we have to spend) 3 attacks base(better than termies) and for 3 pts they become I5, wrecking most everything in the game at the same time or before we strike(WAY better than termies) Wraithwing is alive and well, people will take 18 wraiths. You won't be able to stop it. They will hit before your DK and kill it, 18-24 attacks, bet you will lost that assault with just one DK, and then you're still left with 12 more wraiths! And that's not even counting the rest of the shenanigans the army is pulling at the same time.

I need to get my hands on this new 'dex. They may even beat Blood Angels in combat! *shudder*. GW took away the initiative bonus from our halberds, and gave it to the necrons. If our halberds were at least +1 initiative then we might gain some ground, but... This is the xenos' domain.

[Brom MKIV]

Wraiths have 12" move(so move faster than termies) 2W and T5(better than termies) Str 6 base(better than termies) have fleet for making crucial assault move now(better than termies) have rending so can get through 2+ saves(better than the 10 pts we have to spend) 3 attacks base(better than termies) and for 3 pts they become I5, wrecking most everything in the game at the same time or before we strike(WAY better than termies) Wraithwing is alive and well, people will take 18 wraiths. You won't be able to stop it. They will hit before your DK and kill it, 18-24 attacks, bet you will lost that assault with just one DK, and then you're still left with 12 more wraiths! And that's not even counting the rest of the shenanigans the army is pulling at the same time.

Have you faced the old wraithwing? It's the same only less, no much less firepower. It was a top tier army previously, not sure that's still the case. I do know that dreadknights don't really care about the toughness change. Harvest formation is good but show me a list with more than 1 of these that has anywhere near the old wings ranged presence.