Khorne Berzerkers: A discussion and Analysis

[maverike_prime]

Okay, so I'm doing a bit of a theoretical deep dive and examination of several of the "worthless" or 'not usable' units in the Chaos Space Marine Codexes. So first I'm going to post my take and analysis of the unit in question, and then I'd like feed on the unit and my analysis. Not keep in mind I avoid tournaments like a combination of a clingy X-girl friend combined with the black plague I try to play friendly games. That being said tournaments in this area have an absolute stranglehold so I can't avoid the effect of tournaments (IE the highly competitive atmosphere and the min-maxing list building approach). So it's a bit like doing recreational boxing against Muhammad Ali. Even if he's got both legs and arm tied behind his back and his eye covered, he still knocks you all around the ring and then looks at you with this look that says "Why aren't you trying?"


This time I'm looking at Khorne Berzerkers.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/maverike_prime/blog/flutteryshy-berzerker-sized_zpsdbe6887f.png







okay okay, I'm kidding. Don't kill the brony.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/maverike_prime/khorne_berzerkers_zpse9078310.jpg



So, Khorne Berzerkers. They've been a staple of the Chaos Space Marine codex for the last couple decades and weather you hated them or loved them tended to be determined by weather you were watching their backs as they killed things, or seeing their front as they killed you. They were once mindless killers that once you figured out the trick to beating them made them laughable. Now they seem to be trying to be a better assault marine minus the jump packs. but what do you actually get with them?

Well Let's start with the basic unit selection. For 105 points you get 5 Space Marines, who are WS5 and come a pistol and CC weapon. As a nice bonus they are fearless and have furious charge. Thanks to the Mark of Khorne they have Rage and Counter Attack. This has honestly struck me kind of an odd combination. Counter-attack gives them +1 attacks if they are charged (assuming they are not already in combat when charged) while Rage gives them +2 attacks on the charge rather than +1. Okay... I mean it works, it just seems kind of odd. Like, why not just make the Berzerkers Base Attacks 2 instead of the 2 special rules? Not saying this is a 'con' of the unit, but it does strike me as odd.

Okay, so 105 points. 5 Berzerkers that are WS5, S5 on the Charge, tossing 4 attacks each on the charge. Other then that they're space marines through and through. Yeah, I say that like it's just one or two small differences between Berzerkers and normal Space Marines. But yeah, they hit more reliably, and on their terms they hit harder then normal Space Marines. So what options do they have?

Well any model can take a chain axe making their melee attacks AP4. Nice plus. I'm actually going to say this is a con because of the price for the upgrade: 3 points each. Making each berzerker 22 points. Given the prevelence of Chain Axes in connection to Berzerkers, I would make this upgrade 1 or 2 points per model instead of 3. Agree or disagree with me on this Point? Feel free to explain your reasoning below.

What else can they do?

Well up to 2 berzerkers in the unit can take plasma pistols. Okay, nice. Plasma weapons are always fun. Well Until they over heat and kill the guy holding them anyway. But that's fairly rare with Space Marines, and Berzerkers are still space marines.
One member of the unit can take an Icon of wrath, which gives the unit Furious char... wait, what? Berzerkers already have Furious charge. So... what do they get if they take the Icon? Well they can re-roll their charge distance and they add 1 to their combat results. So.. okay. That's nice. Not totally sure it's worth the 15 points though, but as it stands now taking the icon is certainly more of a pro then a con.
Finally the Champion himself can take some options from the Melee weapons (Where the Chain axe is 8 points compared to 3 points in the army list entry) and he can take a combi-weapon.

Okay, so over all Berzerkers are pretty good. For what they are.

The big issue I have with Berzerkers is in comparing them to Normal Chaos Space Marines with mark of Khorne.
For 210 points you can get a 10 man CSM squad with Mark of Khorne and Icon of Wrath and 2 Melta Guns. This is a pretty well rounded and tacticaly flexible squad.
In the case of Khorne Berserkers, a 10 man unit with 2 plasma pistols and Icon of Wraith will run you 245 points. A difference of 35 points and the only thing the Berzerkers have over the Chaos Marine Squad at this point is WS 5 compared to WS 4. Now admittedly a 3-4 point difference per model for a +1 WS is pretty reasonable of a difference. But all of that being said, I'm inclined to take a 10 man Marine unit over a 10 man Berzerker unit because of the added versatility.

So thoughts from anyone else about Khorne Berzerkers?

 

[tdemayo]

Plasma Pistols look cool, but are not worth the points. Drop them and the Berserkers cost roughly the same as the CSMs. You could drop the Icon too, and make them even cheaper. WS 5 is subtle but potentially very powerful against WS 4 opponents, particularly if paired with VotLW.  I think the real problem with Berserkers is the lack of power weapon upgrades in the squad, other than the Champion.

[Zhukov]

I don't really understand your intro regarding avoiding tournaments etc. It doesn't add anything to your words. No offense, I just find it odd.

 

 

 

Okay, so over all Berzerkers are pretty good. For what they are.

This is a conclusion, but not one which followed logicly from previous arguments. You literally haven't explained why they are pretty good for what they are, because you merely explained what stats and options they have.

 

Then you compare them to Khorne Marines; which is fine, except you make the mistake of including plasma pistols in the cost (which you shouldn't, because you those aren't a good option to take) and forgetting to mention Berzerkers being Fearless, which is their biggest benefit over Khorne Marines, not Ws5 versus Ws4.

 

Overall a weak analysis, especially considering how old our codex is. Again, I mean no offense, maybe you can take the criticism for potential future write-ups.

 

 

Now what I myself have to say about them:

 

Short answer is that they are way too expensive, but that's too easy, one can say that about any bad unti in the game pretty much.

 

The stock standard marine profile is a very poor combat profile, so they already don't have that going for them. They basicly cannot reach combat reliably and can even less reliably get a charge off. (Standard infantry movement, with a crappy semi-fleet in the form of a 15 point upgrade) Counter-attack is not good enough when that means that an elite assault unit is hitting with 3 Ws5 S4 attacks.

 

And yes, elite, not meaning the FoC slot they are in. I mean looking at their price. Compare them to Flayed Ones and it's pretty pathetic how bad Khorne Berzekers are at the moment. That unit has better delivery options (Deepstrike or Inifltrate), is overall usually more survivable (cause of 4+ and 5+ 'FnP', although no Fearless) and hits overall harder and more reliably (Berzerkers only hit hard the turn they charge). And they cost 13 points  a piece.

 

It's nice to have an assault unit potentially as troops, but not when they are this bad, it's just not worth to take them as troops. Which is sad, because I have a soft spot for them and played a lot with them in 5th edition. What they need? Depends. I'd personally make them cheaper... let's say 16 points a piece and make Chain Axes into giving them Rending. The Mark system need to change too, because indeed, Rage and Counter-Attack is just plain worse than having an extra attack on the profile. I'd also consider things like Fleet or FnP, instead of making them cheaper.

 

Champion of Chaos needs to go as well obviously.

 

Basicly what Berzerkers did (at least for me) in 5th edition: They disembarked and charged from a rhino, hitting with 28 Ws5 S5 attacks at I5, followed by 4 Ws5 S9 powerfist attacks at I1.

 

What Berzerkers did in 6th and do in 7th) They disembark, don't charge, get shot up and hopefully get to swing a few attacks with 3 remaining guys or so after getting charged or next turn when they get to charge (unlikely lol).

 

 

Tl;DR: Too expensive to be played as a horde assault unit, too easily killed and not killy enough to be an elite assault unit.

[Schurge]

Plasma Pistols look cool, but are not worth the points. Drop them and the Berserkers cost roughly the same as the CSMs. You could drop the Icon too, and make them even cheaper. WS 5 is subtle but potentially very powerful against WS 4 opponents, particularly if paired with VotLW.  I think the real problem with Berserkers is the lack of power weapon upgrades in the squad, other than the Champion.

 

Agreed... WS5 coupled with Hatred and Rage makes Space Marines players... well hate and rage. What was once a 4+ to Hit and Wound is now a 3+. I have only been playing 40k for eight months or so but I exclusively run 'Zerker lists and I would say the main thing that needs to be changed is that they need to be given the option of taking AP3 weaponry per model. Veteran squads can take AP3 weaponry. Seven Wolfguard with 1 Bolter and 1 Wolf Claw (+1 Str. & AP3) each cost nearly the same as a full Squad of Zerkers with Icon, Multi-melta + Power Sword on Champion (so no Chainaxes or plasma pistols) and have debatably more killing power (or at the least more reliable killing power) against MEQs.

 

I think making Chain axes AP2 on 6s might be a suitable boost... but again I am still new  and don't really know how things are supposed to scale... but 8 pts for a Chainaxe that is Str. - & AP4? No thank you, Chainswords all day every day.

 

EDIT: That and +1 Initiative on charge.

[Schurge]

I don't really understand your intro regarding avoiding tournaments etc. It doesn't add anything to your words. No offense, I just find it odd.

 

 

 

Okay, so over all Berzerkers are pretty good. For what they are.

This is a conclusion, but not one which followed logicly from previous arguments. You literally haven't explained why they are pretty good for what they are, because you merely explained what stats and options they have.

 

Then you compare them to Khorne Marines; which is fine, except you make the mistake of including plasma pistols in the cost (which you shouldn't, because you those aren't a good option to take) and forgetting to mention Berzerkers being Fearless, which is their biggest benefit over Khorne Marines, not Ws5 versus Ws4.

 

Overall a weak analysis, especially considering how old our codex is. Again, I mean no offense, maybe you can take the criticism for potential future write-ups.

 

 

Now what I myself have to say about them:

 

Short answer is that they are way too expensive, but that's too easy, one can say that about any bad unti in the game pretty much.

 

The stock standard marine profile is a very poor combat profile, so they already don't have that going for them. They basicly cannot reach combat reliably and can even less reliably get a charge off. (Standard infantry movement, with a crappy semi-fleet in the form of a 15 point upgrade) Counter-attack is not good enough when that means that an elite assault unit is hitting with 3 Ws5 S4 attacks.

 

And yes, elite, not meaning the FoC slot they are in. I mean looking at their price. Compare them to Flayed Ones and it's pretty pathetic how bad Khorne Berzekers are at the moment. That unit has better delivery options (Deepstrike or Inifltrate), is overall usually more survivable (cause of 4+ and 5+ 'FnP', although no Fearless) and hits overall harder and more reliably (Berzerkers only hit hard the turn they charge). And they cost 13 points  a piece.

 

It's nice to have an assault unit potentially as troops, but not when they are this bad, it's just not worth to take them as troops. Which is sad, because I have a soft spot for them and played a lot with them in 5th edition. What they need? Depends. I'd personally make them cheaper... let's say 16 points a piece and make Chain Axes into giving them Rending. The Mark system need to change too, because indeed, Rage and Counter-Attack is just plain worse than having an extra attack on the profile. I'd also consider things like Fleet or FnP, instead of making them cheaper.

 

Champion of Chaos needs to go as well obviously.

 

Basicly what Berzerkers did (at least for me) in 5th edition: They disembarked and charged from a rhino, hitting with 28 Ws5 S5 attacks at I5, followed by 4 Ws5 S9 powerfist attacks at I1.

 

What Berzerkers did in 6th and do in 7th) They disembark, don't charge, get shot up and hopefully get to swing a few attacks with 3 remaining guys or so after getting charged or next turn when they get to charge (unlikely lol).

 

 

Tl;DR: Too expensive to be played as a horde assault unit, too easily killed and not killy enough to be an elite assault unit.

 

Way to be a downer man. This game is about skill and Berserkers are just as strong as everyone else. Here, try some Kool-Aid.

[Tenebris]

I second Zhukov because I know how I have been playing berzerkers in the past and how I struggle nowadays with them. To deliver them is a pain having to rely on the Rhino but the main problem I have with the berzerkers is that they are good only in a single turn, the turn they charge, following that their offensive potential is greatly diminished, and diminished further still if your aspiring champion hence your only power weapon in the squad dies.

[Beachymike123]

 

And yes, elite, not meaning the FoC slot they are in. I mean looking at their price. Compare them to Flayed Ones and it's pretty pathetic how bad Khorne Berzekers are at the moment. That unit has better delivery options (Deepstrike or Inifltrate), is overall usually more survivable (cause of 4+ and 5+ 'FnP', although no Fearless) and hits overall harder and more reliably (Berzerkers only hit hard the turn they charge). And they cost 13 points  a piece.

 

 

Hold your horses there sunshine, I'm an ex-Necron player and I can tell you that Flayed Ones are one of the most under used and underperforming units in the codex imho (and it is just my opinion, fell free to disagree at any point). They can arrive via DS or they can Infiltrate, but they are exceptionally slow and they can't assault on the turn they arrive or on the first turn. Even then, they are only I2 (unless this has been changed in the new codex but I doubt it, feel free to correct me if anyone has the codex). Yes they are cheaper than Zerkers, and work well if taken in large units, but their slow speed and low I mean they will suffer in the short term if their numbers are whittled down. I agree with your point about the hitting - Berzerkers are really only effective on the charge, and if they don't get it they lose 2 attacks per model. Other than this I agree with your other points, especially the option of taking power weapons in the unit. It would give them a bit more bite in combat which is where they should be. Also, the bit about Flayed Ones wasn't a personal dig, just another side of the debate. 

 

I think Berzerkers need a huge overhaul (at least the mark anyway) but can be made to work. I have quite a few Khorne marked units in my army but these are only taken if I know I can engage them quickly due to the Rage rule. They are (to me) an iconic unit (no pun intended) as are the Thousand Sons, Plague Marines and Noise Marines. Even just giving them 2A basic would be better as they can do their job better then without having to rely on rules. 

 

Just my thoughts anyway. 

[Tenebris]

The new Decurion makes the Flayed Ones a dire prospect, would they be troop you could even make a working list with them as core. They are not epic but: reliable, tough, have rending, easy to deliver...

 

Much like with the Thousand Sons so too the Berzerker "enigma" is not easy to solve. ATM I use them more due to them being Fearless than for anything else but as a premier assault unit they are quite "meh" nowadays. 2 attacks would make them better, a "hidden" power weapon or two in the squad would pay dividends but the true crux is how to deliver them in the assault range and conserve their numbers and pool of attacks (power weapons) which in the current situation is nigh impossible since we have to rely on the non assault vehicle Rhino.

[incinerator950]

 

 

I don't really understand your intro regarding avoiding tournaments etc. It doesn't add anything to your words. No offense, I just find it odd.

 

 

 

Okay, so over all Berzerkers are pretty good. For what they are.

This is a conclusion, but not one which followed logicly from previous arguments. You literally haven't explained why they are pretty good for what they are, because you merely explained what stats and options they have.

 

Then you compare them to Khorne Marines; which is fine, except you make the mistake of including plasma pistols in the cost (which you shouldn't, because you those aren't a good option to take) and forgetting to mention Berzerkers being Fearless, which is their biggest benefit over Khorne Marines, not Ws5 versus Ws4.

 

Overall a weak analysis, especially considering how old our codex is. Again, I mean no offense, maybe you can take the criticism for potential future write-ups.

 

 

Now what I myself have to say about them:

 

Short answer is that they are way too expensive, but that's too easy, one can say that about any bad unti in the game pretty much.

 

The stock standard marine profile is a very poor combat profile, so they already don't have that going for them. They basicly cannot reach combat reliably and can even less reliably get a charge off. (Standard infantry movement, with a crappy semi-fleet in the form of a 15 point upgrade) Counter-attack is not good enough when that means that an elite assault unit is hitting with 3 Ws5 S4 attacks.

 

And yes, elite, not meaning the FoC slot they are in. I mean looking at their price. Compare them to Flayed Ones and it's pretty pathetic how bad Khorne Berzekers are at the moment. That unit has better delivery options (Deepstrike or Inifltrate), is overall usually more survivable (cause of 4+ and 5+ 'FnP', although no Fearless) and hits overall harder and more reliably (Berzerkers only hit hard the turn they charge). And they cost 13 points a piece.

 

It's nice to have an assault unit potentially as troops, but not when they are this bad, it's just not worth to take them as troops. Which is sad, because I have a soft spot for them and played a lot with them in 5th edition. What they need? Depends. I'd personally make them cheaper... let's say 16 points a piece and make Chain Axes into giving them Rending. The Mark system need to change too, because indeed, Rage and Counter-Attack is just plain worse than having an extra attack on the profile. I'd also consider things like Fleet or FnP, instead of making them cheaper.

 

Champion of Chaos needs to go as well obviously.

 

Basicly what Berzerkers did (at least for me) in 5th edition: They disembarked and charged from a rhino, hitting with 28 Ws5 S5 attacks at I5, followed by 4 Ws5 S9 powerfist attacks at I1.

 

What Berzerkers did in 6th and do in 7th) They disembark, don't charge, get shot up and hopefully get to swing a few attacks with 3 remaining guys or so after getting charged or next turn when they get to charge (unlikely lol).

 

 

Tl;DR: Too expensive to be played as a horde assault unit, too easily killed and not killy enough to be an elite assault unit.

Way to be a downer man. This game is about skill and Berserkers are just as strong as everyone else. Here, try some Kool-Aid.

It is not just about skill. Preparation, critical thinking, unit composition, and luck are key components to actually being good at a money spending can-opener table top game.

 

Berzerkers are not efficient or effective for what they do, compared to similar peer units, in a meta with major emphasis on rapid mobility and shooting.

[Excessus]

Berzerkers could be nice with the Khorney Legacy of Ruin from IA13 on a tough tank, giving the units with Icon of Wrath within 12" FnP and fear...

[maverike_prime]

I don't really understand your intro regarding avoiding tournaments etc. It doesn't add anything to your words. No offense, I just find it odd.

I'm afraid I don't understand what is unclear about my statement regarding tournaments. I do not play in Tournaments anymore, and hardly ever did, and I did not want people to think that I did. I've encountered this 'assumption of tournamentness' a lot and it serves no purpose other then to exacerbate the discussion as I make points assuming the other people understands I am not talking about tournaments, while the other person will in turn make statements with an understanding that I'm talking about tournament use. I avoid tournaments because of the ultra-competitiveness of them, the Win at all cost approach many individuals take, the near absolute disregard for anything beyond the stat line and the general aura of "SCREW YOU! I'M HERE TO WIN!" The catch to it is that there are so many tournaments so often in this region, that even when I'm at a different location, that hasn't hosted a Tournament in months and isn't planning to host one for several more, and the next tournament is still 3-4 months away, I still find myself facing off against the "I need to perfect my list" tournament approach. Which all too often leads to declarations of something to effect of "You noob! You're not even trying to win" cause I'm not running a list with 4 Heralds of Tzeentch or something. This is not fun for me. I do not enjoy it. Thus, I avoid tournaments as much as I possibly can. The down side to this is that I tend to only get 2-3 games in. a year. Because the majority of the Tournament players won't play me.

 

 

Okay, so over all Berzerkers are pretty good. For what they are.

This is a conclusion, but not one which followed logicly from previous arguments. You literally haven't explained why they are pretty good for what they are, because you merely explained what stats and options they have.

 

Then you compare them to Khorne Marines; which is fine, except you make the mistake of including plasma pistols in the cost (which you shouldn't, because you those aren't a good option to take) and forgetting to mention Berzerkers being Fearless, which is their biggest benefit over Khorne Marines, not Ws5 versus Ws4.

 

Overall a weak analysis, especially considering how old our codex is. Again, I mean no offense, maybe you can take the criticism for potential future write-ups.

 

 

I'm sorry, is there a particular reason you ignored... you know everything regarding why I was posting what I posted? Did I not explicitly state I wanted to see what other thought about Khorne berzerkers? What? did you think I was trying to present myself as some kind of 'master analyst' or something? If that's the sense you got from my post, I whole-heartedly apologize on every level I can do so on. That was never my intent, interest, or intended result of effort. As I stated I avoid tournaments, and with them I miss about 95% of rules and tactics discussion because I do not speak the tournament lingo and when I ask something like "what's a waac?" I tend to get responses of "Shut up you [expletive] troll!" or if I ask "wait, does MSU stand for Monstrous creature Slam unit?" I'll get told something like "Grow up you prick!"

 

 

Now what I myself have to say about them:

 

Short answer is that they are way too expensive, but that's too easy, one can say that about any bad unti in the game pretty much.

 

The stock standard marine profile is a very poor combat profile, so they already don't have that going for them. They basicly cannot reach combat reliably and can even less reliably get a charge off. (Standard infantry movement, with a crappy semi-fleet in the form of a 15 point upgrade) Counter-attack is not good enough when that means that an elite assault unit is hitting with 3 Ws5 S4 attacks.

 

And yes, elite, not meaning the FoC slot they are in. I mean looking at their price. Compare them to Flayed Ones and it's pretty pathetic how bad Khorne Berzekers are at the moment. That unit has better delivery options (Deepstrike or Inifltrate), is overall usually more survivable (cause of 4+ and 5+ 'FnP', although no Fearless) and hits overall harder and more reliably (Berzerkers only hit hard the turn they charge). And they cost 13 points  a piece.

 

It's nice to have an assault unit potentially as troops, but not when they are this bad, it's just not worth to take them as troops. Which is sad, because I have a soft spot for them and played a lot with them in 5th edition. What they need? Depends. I'd personally make them cheaper... let's say 16 points a piece and make Chain Axes into giving them Rending. The Mark system need to change too, because indeed, Rage and Counter-Attack is just plain worse than having an extra attack on the profile. I'd also consider things like Fleet or FnP, instead of making them cheaper.

 

Champion of Chaos needs to go as well obviously.

 

Basicly what Berzerkers did (at least for me) in 5th edition: They disembarked and charged from a rhino, hitting with 28 Ws5 S5 attacks at I5, followed by 4 Ws5 S9 powerfist attacks at I1.

 

What Berzerkers did in 6th and do in 7th) They disembark, don't charge, get shot up and hopefully get to swing a few attacks with 3 remaining guys or so after getting charged or next turn when they get to charge (unlikely lol).

 

 

Tl;DR: Too expensive to be played as a horde assault unit, too easily killed and not killy enough to be an elite assault unit.

 

Some good points. I will ask for details as to why you think that giving them Feel No pain (seriously, is it that much trouble to type out 'F-E-E-L-[space]-N-O-[space]-P-A-I-N? instead of 'FnP'? I'm typing this on my Ipad screen) is a good idea. Well wait, let me rephrase that statement. I can see why this would look like a good idea on it's own. Why do you feel it is a good idea to give Berzerkers Feel No pain when Slaanesh Noise marines can get it, Nurgle Plague Marines already have it, and it can like wise be given to every other unit in the entire codex that can take icons? Maybe it's just the gaming groups around here but I have not had a game in the last year where my opponent made more feel no pain rolls then he did normal armor saves. Does anyone run into this? Seriously, I shoot your 20 man Guardsman mob, inflict 14 wounds, and then you're going to stand there and pass 12 feel no saves meaning my 160 points worth of  Chaos Space Marines, shooting at full auto with everything they have, just managed to kill a whopping 2 guardsmen.

[Sheesh Mode]

It is a problem when chosen, who are simply chaos marines with an additional attack and leadership stat, can take powerweapons and are largely more effective than berserkers. 

[Shaolin_Monkey]

I have to say i agree with most of your reasoning and thoughts Maverick, I would like to take them more but I just can't justify when as you say the squad of Khorne marked Chaos Marines come so much more effective for the cost.

 

I think even just if they had the option to take either two plasma pistols or two power weapons it would give them a bit more of an edge.

 

As stated by all the chain axes are just not worth the cost, maybe for 1pt or if they were like the old days when they reduced any save better than 4+ to a 4+ they would be taken a bit more.

 

I have to say that i even find myself more likely to spend more points and take a chosen squad with mark of khorne and either some power weapons or a stack of assault weapons. It just seems more worthwhile.

 

All of that said there are some times when they have excelled and Imperial Armour 13 has some stuff that seems to help them along.

   -the vehicle upgrade giving them all feel no pain within 12 inches

   -an Arch Demagogue with covenant of khorne joining the squad

   -dreadclaws and kharibydis assault claws for assault vehicles 

 

the real problem is that these units also just as effectively assist the other cheaper/more reliable units you can take instead.

[Zhukov]

 

Hold your horses there sunshine, I'm an ex-Necron player and I can tell you that Flayed Ones are one of the most under used and underperforming units in the codex imho

 

Are you speaking about the old codex? I find Flayed Ones pretty good in the new codex personally. Either way; I didn't imply that Flayed Ones were awesome, I used them as example to point out how weak Berzerkers are at the moment.

 

 

 

I'm afraid I don't understand what is unclear about my statement regarding tournaments.

The statement self isn't unclear, the purpose of the statement is. Let's drop it though, it's not important.

 

m sorry, is there a particular reason you ignored... you know everything regarding why I was posting what I posted?

Yes, it is not much more than giving the codex entry of Khorne Berzerkers, which means it's not really content, sorry.

 

 

Did I not explicitly state I wanted to see what other thought about Khorne berzerkers?

 

And I gave my thoughts didn't I?

 

What? did you think I was trying to present myself as some kind of 'master analyst' or something?

No?

[Sheesh Mode]

 

 (seriously, is it that much trouble to type out 'F-E-E-L-[space]-N-O-[space]-P-A-I-N? instead of 'FnP'?\

 

Are you okay?

[incinerator950]

You have to ask?

[chaplain belisarius]

I like berserkers they are fun when they get the charge. Chainaxes should come included in cost as they are in the fluff.

 

A way to make them more likely to get the charge perhaps? Count transport as an assault vehicle? Re roll charge distance?

 

Just my thoughts.

[Strazhakov]

Khorne Berzerkers are easy to fix.

-1 pts/each and give them the options for some special weapons (like Chosen but only Melee/Assault weapons) and include the Ap4 Chainaxes in their profile at no extra cost.

 

Done.

 

Not OP but quite formidable at a reasonable price. 

 

Open Topped Assault Rhinos with the Blessing of Khorne would be nice but I doubt we`ll ever see those again.

[Beachymike123]

 

 

Hold your horses there sunshine, I'm an ex-Necron player and I can tell you that Flayed Ones are one of the most under used and underperforming units in the codex imho

 

Are you speaking about the old codex? I find Flayed Ones pretty good in the new codex personally. Either way; I didn't imply that Flayed Ones were awesome, I used them as example to point out how weak Berzerkers are at the moment.

 

 

I am indeed speaking of the old (5th ed) codex. It sounds as if they have been bumped up a bit which they needed to be fair, much like Berzerkers. I also apologise as I misread your post, although I still agree with your other points. I'll drop you a PM and we can continue this discussion without clogging the thread. Speak soon. 

[Zhukov]

 

I am indeed speaking of the old (5th ed) codex. It sounds as if they have been bumped up a bit which they needed to be fair, much like Berzerkers. I also apologise as I misread your post, although I still agree with your other points. I'll drop you a PM and we can continue this discussion without clogging the thread. Speak soon. 

 

No problem mate!

[maverike_prime]

I like berserkers they are fun when they get the charge. Chainaxes should come included in cost as they are in the fluff.

This is a suggestion I keep hearing, almost word for word if all truth be told, and there is something I would like to ask about it: what fluff consistently depicts berzerkers has always having chain axes? I mean 'Horus rising' showed Khârn using a chainsword. The Garro stories frequently show Varren as using a chain sword. 'storm of iron' showed kroegers berzerkers all using chainswords. I mean do berzerkers use chain axes frequently? Yes. I highly doubt any one will argue that point. But do they use them to the exclusion of chainswords? I can't recall seeing anything that supports that statement. Can anyone elaborate?

[Trevak Dal]

I want Khorne beserkers to be as good in assault as Tau are in shooting.  They should get rules that allow them to assault out of rhinos, or an assault rhino upgrade.  They should have 2 attacks base +1 for being double armed-on top of the other 6th edition improvements (rage and Counter attack).

 

Icon of wrath on Khorne beserkers should make them better, like add +1 strength to Furious charge and Rending (if a unit already has Furious Charge) or +1 initiative and Rending if a unit already has Furious Charge along with the charge distance re-rolls, or it could be the upgrade to being able to assault out of rhinos.  

 

It helps out Khorne Marked units, but makes Cult Khorne Units (which you'd unlock by marking, and then buying a Veterans of the Long war upgrade-which makes them effectively a Khorne Beserker Lord, Khorne Beserker Terminators, Khorne Beserker Raptors, etc., with the current VoTLW rule being free and built into the base of CSM units that aren't Cultists)

I'd Be Okay for paying for chainaxe/Khornate Chain weapon upgrade, if it allowed you to take a second pistol also.  To balance this, I think that Beserker Units should be BS3 or maybe even BS2.

Also, (but off topic) Helbrutes need +1 attack and rampage and the ability to be teleported without the formation.

[maverike_prime]

Also, (but off topic) Helbrutes need +1 attack and rampage and the ability to be teleported without the formation.

I'll be getting to HelBrutes, probably next week.

[maverike_prime]

I don't really understand your intro regarding avoiding tournaments etc. It doesn't add anything to your words. No offense, I just find it odd.

I had a fairly good object example of what I was referencing when I said I avoid tournament tonight. While it won't add anything to the discussion regarding the Berzerkers, I do think it will help explain my disdain for tournament mentalities. A co-worker has expressed an interest in getting into 40k recently and he asked if I could help. So I said sure. Meet me at the shop Wednesday about 3. I threw together 2 500-point lists, one Chaos Space marines the other Tyranids. He had said he was interested in playing Tyranids cause he likes Aliens. Okay, cool. Everyone has their respective click points for what army they want to play. So like I said, I threw together a pair of small 500 point lists. One for him to use, one for me to use. Small enough to get introduced to the game and get an idea of the basic mechanics of the game with out over whelming a new player. The Tyranid list had a 20-something unit of Hormagaunt, an 8 man gene stealer unit, a 3 man Tyranid warrior brood and a Tyranid Prime while the Chaos List had 2 squads of 10 marines, 1 with bolters the other with CC weapons and Bolt Pistols, a 17 man Cultist mob and a Lord with the Blade of Relentless.  Now certainly neither of these lists are comprehensive of every rule found in the game, but again this is for introduction purposes. Something more then an GW intro game, but less then a larger full on game between people who are honestly invested in the hobby. 

 

So I get to the shop a bit early and I'm setting up the armies. Another guy who plays 40k comes in, he and I played 3 games about 2 years ago we promptly agreed to never play one another again (Yes he's a tournament player for the record). He asks what I'm doing, and I explain that I'm setting up a game to show a friend from work how the game works. he looks at the army lists and then asks why I did bring a Winged Hive Tyrant and a Tervigon for the Tyranids or any Daemonic allies for the Chaos marines. I responded by telling him the lists are just small 500 point lists to give him a good sampling of the game and how it works. We're not doing a 1250 point game or anything like that so I didn't want to over whelm him by dealing with Psychic powers, allies, and detachments. he responded by telling me that I really needed to start playing the game seriously or else no one's going to want to play against me. When I asked what exactly he meant, he basically told me that since I did build competitive lists (read: Tournament ready), I was a bad player. As an example he referenced the 500 point Tyranid list and how it lacked a Winged Tyrant and then explained that a Tyranid list absolutely has to have one in order to be competitive and since I didn't include one, the list was worthless [in a tournament].

 

 

^^^^ this is the sort of thing I want to avoid dealing with tournament players over. This absolute mentality of "If it's not tournament worthy, it's a waste of time"

[Forté]

^^^^ this is the sort of thing I want to avoid dealing with tournament players over. This absolute mentality of "If it's not tournament worthy, it's a waste of time"

Luckily not all gamers are like that and plenty are happy to break friends in gently like you did.

 

As for the actual discussion, I can't really add anything but it's good reading varying views and experiences.