Khorne Berzerkers: A discussion and Analysis

[Kol Saresk]

 

I like berserkers they are fun when they get the charge. Chainaxes should come included in cost as they are in the fluff.

This is a suggestion I keep hearing, almost word for word if all truth be told, and there is something I would like to ask about it: what fluff consistently depicts berzerkers has always having chain axes? I mean 'Horus rising' showed Khârn using a chainsword. The Garro stories frequently show Varren as using a chain sword. 'storm of iron' showed kroegers berzerkers all using chainswords. I mean do berzerkers use chain axes frequently? Yes. I highly doubt any one will argue that point. But do they use them to the exclusion of chainswords? I can't recall seeing anything that supports that statement. Can anyone elaborate?

It goes back to before Horus Rising was written actually. The older fluff(and current I think as well) had it that Khorne's favored weapon was an axe. That's why the Bloodthirsters, the Chosen Daemons of Khorne, all carried axes. So when Berzerkers were introduced, they loved chainaxes. Because chainaxes could cut through anything. It was like a chainfist on a stick.

 

It was also the favorite weapon of the World Eaters. Which was convenient since they were the Legion the first Berzerkers came from.

 

But most of the "I want chainaxes to be this" is a call-back to 3rd Edition when chainaxes had Rend and were AP3(IIRC?) instead of just AP4. And I tend to agree. What's the point of having the weapon background say it can be used to cut into armored vehicles if it can't even cut into Power Armor?

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

 

 

But most of the "I want chainaxes to be this" is a call-back to 3rd Edition when chainaxes had Rend and were AP3(IIRC?) instead of just AP4. And I tend to agree. What's the point of having the weapon background say it can be used to cut into armored vehicles if it can't even cut into Power Armor?

 

 

Index Astarties list for the World Eater (WD 263)?  The Khorne Chain-axe as give a 4+ save like the 3rd ed Orks Choppa, say vs Terminators or standard Marine would only get a 4+ save against them.  But Inv save would not be effected by this.

 

I'm currently looking into adding a unit of Berzerker to my Iron Warriors force.  Part as a nod back to the index astarties, part because I want to convert up a cool unit & other part is.  For me there a part of my hobby history with Chaos, when the 2nd ed era clip together model was around.

[Forté]

I'm currently looking into adding a unit of Berzerker to my Iron Warriors force. Part as a nod back to the index astarties, part because I want to convert up a cool unit & other part is. For me there a part of my hobby history with Chaos, when the 2nd ed era clip together model was around.

Part because of Storm of Iron?

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

But most of the "I want chainaxes to be this" is a call-back to 3rd Edition when chainaxes had Rend and were AP3(IIRC?) instead of just AP4. And I tend to agree. What's the point of having the weapon background say it can be used to cut into armored vehicles if it can't even cut into Power Armor?

 

Index Astarties list for the World Eater (WD 263)? The Khorne Chain-axe as give a 4+ save like the 3rd ed Orks Choppa, say vs Terminators or standard Marine would only get a 4+ save against them. But Inv save would not be effected by

Honestly, I was going by what I keep hearing people say what was. Although after reading your post, I thought they were talking about 3.5.

 

But after looking at 3.5, I honestly cannot say where it came since 3.5(the holiest of holys) says the exact same thing our current Codex says. Pay X points per individual Chainaxe and they only get AP4.

 

So, apologies for being misleading with my post earlier.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

 

 

But most of the "I want chainaxes to be this" is a call-back to 3rd Edition when chainaxes had Rend and were AP3(IIRC?) instead of just AP4. And I tend to agree. What's the point of having the weapon background say it can be used to cut into armored vehicles if it can't even cut into Power Armor?

Index Astarties list for the World Eater (WD 263)? The Khorne Chain-axe as give a 4+ save like the 3rd ed Orks Choppa, say vs Terminators or standard Marine would only get a 4+ save against them. But Inv save would not be effected by

Honestly, I was going by what I keep hearing people say what was. Although after reading your post, I thought they were talking about 3.5.

But after looking at 3.5, I honestly cannot say where it came since 3.5(the holiest of holys) says the exact same thing our current Codex says. Pay X points per individual Chainaxe and they only get AP4.

So, apologies for being misleading with my post earlier.

No need to apologies :D

 

Forte - That as well :D

[Zhukov]

 

I don't really understand your intro regarding avoiding tournaments etc. It doesn't add anything to your words. No offense, I just find it odd.

wall of text

 

You seem to have an incredibly biased view towards 'tournament players'. I guess you've had your fair share of bad experiences with them, experiences which you also might have your own share in. You have to realise however that not everybody is the same. Just because I can be qualified as a tournament player (you could even qualify me as a very competitive player), doesn't mean I cannot hold different views towards the game. I dare to bet that I'm equally or more pleasant to play against than most non-competitive players, also in a non-competitive setting. I can play and compete (read: beat) the best players in my country, but I can also play in my club in a relaxed way with non optimised lists against non-competitive players.

 

And this transcends to giving advice or opinions as well. Just because I know how good a certain unit is for competitive play, doesn't mean I can't give advice for that same unit in non competitive play. You have to realise that bad units aren't necessarily good for non competitive play. I have a ton of experience with 'casual players' and they are also to a certain extent interested in the strenght of a unit. New players, while not necessarily interested in playing tournaments, still most of the time prefer having a working army. And with working I mean having units which do what they are supposed to do on the table. To relate that to Berzerkers: Berzerkers at the moment are a bad unit, also for friendly play. Why? Because the unit doesn't function, it simply doesn't function as an assault unit half of the time and this is even more so the case for weaker players! (Unless we are speaking about real 'noobs' or people playing at their home with their brother or friends while consuming vast amounts of alcohol)

 

People who come to forums for opinions on a unit are pretty much always interested to a certain amount in the strenght of a unit. I find it almost insulting how you basicly imply that tournament players are all unpleasant people and that casual players don't care at all about how good a unit is. Giving new players the advice of 'just buy what you want and don't care about how the unit performs on the table' is the fastest way to get people disinterested in the game. People don't like their expensive models doing nothing but dying most the time. And in the case they really don't care, because their oppenents are exactly the same: Why wanting advice in the first place.

 

Now if somebody asks: "Hey, I want to play with Berzekers, even though they might not be that good. Could you guys help me to use them the best?", then it's a different story. In those cases (and I've done that in the past more than enough), I gladly help such people without telling them "Don't play Berzerkers, they suck".

 

So now, please go elsewhere with your personal frustrations regarding tournament players.

[Tenebris]

If I am completely honest I have played the Berzerkers a lot of times in both 6th and now 7th edition and it was mostly an uphill battle with them. I know that I am a veritable killer in the turn where I charge, if I get the charge, if I am not shot to pieces in Overwatch and I manage to topple the enemy squad leader, then yes, the Berzerkers are good. Sadly the remaining 4-6 turns of the game they are not good at all. 

 

In the current situation the only good cult troops we have are the Plague Marines and a distant second the Noise Marines (which work only against specific armies, namely marines), the rest, well is simply the rest... it costs too much, it does not kill much and is slow as hell. 

 

Said that the Berzerkes fall in the purview of the "fluffy" unit ATM, good in casual, stress free lists against a laid back army. The moment you pit them against something serious, well they will simply evaporate. The first casualty will be their Rhino transport, followed by one or two models while they get in the position to charge and on average one model per Overwatch (since your siren died when the Rhino blew up). What follows is the forced challenge with some very tough characters (Iron Hands, Exarchs... etc.) who either hit before you or better than you or are more survivable than you and if you manage to kill the said character you have perhaps one or two attacks left to pour onto the enemy squad, your attacks the only ones with a quality AP (2-3). 

 

Meanwhile your few remaining Berzerkers unleash their cascade of hits, and wounds. For them is simply mathematics, volume of hits, volume of wounds. The problem here is that you have only a few Berzerkers left and all the sudden you wonder if wouldn't it be better to just shoot everything with bolters, meaning that the attacks are not even remotely enough more often than not to kill an enemy squad. Mauling yes, but killing enemy squads... sadly the Berzerkers are not the Death Company, that guys sure ARE an assault unit. 

 

The result is the following. You wound an enemy squad, it usually stays in combat, next turn the number of your attacks is halved and if somehow a hidden power weapon is left alive in the enemy squad, well your Berzerkers are minced meat. That is how usually goes with this guys of ours. 

 

For this paltry result you have invested several hundred points for the unit, in a transport, in upgrades and still you are not sure if the Berzerkers would achieve what they were set to do from the outset of the battle. On the other hand we know of the Death Company, which can be supplemented with strong characters, has a wealth of delivery options, can be made more resilient and can be in melee by turn two if delivered by a drop pod. You know that the Death Company decimates if not outright kills every unit it touches and in the grand scheme of things it is there with the point cost you have spent on your Berzerkers. 

 

Hence, fluffy unit. Not a main unit, not a core unit, not an elite unit. A fluffy and narrative unit, that is what I can state of the Berzerkers of Khorne. 

 

How to make them work?

 

- delivery options which allow for an assault by turn two

- resilience options

- power weapons for the squad

- removal of Rage and Counterattack and the addition of a substantial number of attacks to their profile

 

The mentality is simple. Either you have a volume of S 4 attacks with no AP, or you have a fewer number of attacks but either a higher initiative or with a better AP. The Death Company in the proper formation hits at I 5, has more attacks, is more resilient and has both volume and quality of attacks inherent to the unit, along with a wealth of delivery options...

 

That is how a Berzerker should look like and not just a BP/Chainsword marine with a meager bonus in melee. 

[tdemayo]

The Berserker sprue have tons of chainswords on them! Obviously, they are meant to use them.

[King Jackal]

My take on how to make them worthy.

 

Berzerkers:

 

Critical Strike: Models with this special rule improve the AP of their close combat weapons by 1 on a 'to hit' rolls of 6.

 

Harbingers of Khorne: Models with this special rule may always charge on a turn they have run in addition models with this special rule may never fire overwatch.

 

Up to 4 models in the unit may take Power Axes for 15 points

 

Each model may buy a Juggernaught of Khorne for X points

 

As a general change I'd like to see Chainswords go to AP 6

[Gree]

I have had a decent amount of success with Berzerkers acting as a retinue for an Axelord in a Land Raider. It's not the most competitive of builds, but in casual games it's worked quite well as a delivery system. Because the Land Raider is an assault vehicle they are able to assault out of it when they disembark.

 

I only bother to take that one squad though. I do not bother to take them in Rhinos for the reasons listed by other posters in the thread. They rarely, if every reach close combat in that case.

[Slayer le Boucher]

 

 

 

 

But most of the "I want chainaxes to be this" is a call-back to 3rd Edition when chainaxes had Rend and were AP3(IIRC?) instead of just AP4. And I tend to agree. What's the point of having the weapon background say it can be used to cut into armored vehicles if it can't even cut into Power Armor?

Index Astarties list for the World Eater (WD 263)? The Khorne Chain-axe as give a 4+ save like the 3rd ed Orks Choppa, say vs Terminators or standard Marine would only get a 4+ save against them. But Inv save would not be effected by

Honestly, I was going by what I keep hearing people say what was. Although after reading your post, I thought they were talking about 3.5.

 

But after looking at 3.5, I honestly cannot say where it came since 3.5(the holiest of holys) says the exact same thing our current Codex says. Pay X points per individual Chainaxe and they only get AP4.

 

So, apologies for being misleading with my post earlier.

 

 

Not really at the time the Khornate Chainaxe rule was " models hits with this weapon can never have a save roll better then 4+",wich made Zerkers terrifying foes for units like Termis, coupled with the old FC that gave them the much needed +1Init.

 

But to be short, i agree with most of what had been said in this thread.

 

-Zerkers need more CCW options in the squad, 2guys should be able to get either, power weapons, fist or Eviscerators and/or plasma pistols at 8pts, paying the same price for a pistol as the characters is just plain stupid...

-Open topped/assault rhino, only available to units with the MoK.

-SOme tweaks for the Icon, give +1Init with FC for zerkers and Chosens.

-Khornate chainaxes either 3pts per model and Rending, OR allready included.

-Zerkers champions should be more ferocious and lethal in Challenges, i mean, its what they are living for...

- base profil A2...

-Revival of the WArgear of the Gods, i mean come on, Slaaneshis got their sonic weaponry and doom siren, Plagues got their plague swords and bubonic grenades, Rubrics got Inferno ammos, and what of Khorne's Axes?, Banner of Hate?, or Khorne's Collars?...

-Also a rule that gives 1 extra psychic dice for each unit that have the MoK..., because been the army of the God that hates sorcery and not having any form of psychic defense when the other guy have 16 psy dices, before even making the random throw( and giving you a royal 4 dices to DtW Vs 20dices...) its :cussing ridiculous...

 

And VotLW should be an army wide rule like ATSKNF, that gives Hatred (Space Marines) and Prefered ennemy(Imperium faction).

[Rain]

But after looking at 3.5, I honestly cannot say where it came since 3.5(the holiest of holys) says the exact same thing our current Codex says. Pay X points per individual Chainaxe and they only get AP4.

 

So, apologies for being misleading with my post earlier.

 

 

This is completely wrong. Close combat weapons did not have AP values in third edition, they either ignored all armor saves, or none, and this was how it worked until 6th. The chainaxe rule was relatively unique in that it made all armor saves better than 4+ roll as 4+, so they were kind of a go-between a power weapon (which ignored all saves) and a normal close combat weapon that allowed all saves, and as they were only 1 ppm, they were a great meta choice against Meq and especially Terminators.

[Prot]

Unfortunately unit comparisons always seem to degrade in the Chaos forum.

 

I think the Chaos codex feels about 28 years old. It's hard cover, not that old, but it's very difficult to defend it overall considering what the comp is like in most competitive (tournament/non-tournament) environments.

 

Chaos has elegant/bizarre shooting elements, and elite, way overcosted assault elements with no viable delivery system in an edition of the game that heavily favours shooting.

 

Look at what wins a lot of tournaments and the reality is any marine army is hard done by. If I had to chose, with intent to win a tournament, I'm probably taking Blood Angels 9/10 times, unless I want bearded, helmetless men and then Space Wolves.

 

So really I think it's unfair to compare Chaos, and many of us are jaded. It's unfortunate, but it's true. Quite honestly I always cringe when newer players come in here asking about units, and how they work.

 

For myself if anything adds validity to the Khorne Berzerker it's simply the gamestyle....  Maelstrom. I've said it 200 billion times, but this is Chaos' best chance.... play Maelstrom. Force that Tau/Astra/Eldar/Tau-dar/Nec-Dar player out of his corner.

 

I used to play Berzerkers in my Iron Warriors all the time, and I've still cracked them out for fun. It's just I have no expectation of them until a 'Formation' or Dataslate revives them (I have reason to think a codex is coming out.)

[maverike_prime]

I used to play Berzerkers in my Iron Warriors all the time, and I've still cracked them out for fun. It's just I have no expectation of them until a 'Formation' or Dataslate revives them (I have reason to think a codex is coming out.)

 

So is the Khârn's Butcherhoard not agreeable for your interest, prot? If so, may I ask why you don't care for it?

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

But after looking at 3.5, I honestly cannot say where it came since 3.5(the holiest of holys) says the exact same thing our current Codex says. Pay X points per individual Chainaxe and they only get AP4.

 

So, apologies for being misleading with my post earlier.

 

This is completely wrong. Close combat weapons did not have AP values in third edition, they either ignored all armor saves, or none, and this was how it worked until 6th. The chainaxe rule was relatively unique in that it made all armor saves better than 4+ roll as 4+, so they were kind of a go-between a power weapon (which ignored all saves) and a normal close combat weapon that allowed all saves, and as they were only 1 ppm, they were a great meta choice against Meq and especially Terminators.

The easiest way to translate is AP4. That said, it does the same thing.

[Teetengee]

 

 

But after looking at 3.5, I honestly cannot say where it came since 3.5(the holiest of holys) says the exact same thing our current Codex says. Pay X points per individual Chainaxe and they only get AP4.

 

So, apologies for being misleading with my post earlier.

This is completely wrong. Close combat weapons did not have AP values in third edition, they either ignored all armor saves, or none, and this was how it worked until 6th. The chainaxe rule was relatively unique in that it made all armor saves better than 4+ roll as 4+, so they were kind of a go-between a power weapon (which ignored all saves) and a normal close combat weapon that allowed all saves, and as they were only 1 ppm, they were a great meta choice against Meq and especially Terminators.

The easiest way to translate is AP4. That said, it does the same thing.

 

The old chain axes did entirely the opposite of AP4. They were only good against models with 2+ or 3+ saves, the new chain axes are useless against such models and only good against 4+ or worse saves.

I generally play 4 8 man units of berzerkers with a smattering of different weapons, no more than one unit has chain axes, (if running with them, I point them at some eldar or the like and pray). I also only play maelstrom and run them alongside obliterators, heldrake, and juggeraxelord+spawn unit to take off some of the pressure. I am thinking of adding some maulerfiends and rhinos, as right now they are footslogging. It doesn't work terribly well, but I do tend to enjoy most games and the ones I don't end very quickly.

 

That being said, in order to fix berzerkers I would want the axes brought down to 1 point each and perhaps have them also give +1 strength or instead of being ap4 be rending or like the old chainaxe rules. Furthermore, I would want to see the icon be fewer points for them, since they already have furious charge. Finally (for changes to them) I would change the MoK back to just +1 attack, rather than +1 attack in the first round of combat (which is what rage/counterattack translates to). Point cost otherwise unchanged.

 

I would also like them to have access to cc upgrades instead of pp, still 2 per unit, but if the other changes were made, that wouldn't be as important. Perhaps seeing them also get adamantium will would be nice, assuming adamantium will actually functioned, which it really doesn't very well.

 

Finally, they need a transport they can assault from, the biggest nerf that hit berzerkers was not any change to their profile, but the change to the way assaulting out of vehicles works.

[Rain]

It does nothing even remotely like the same thing. It does almost the exact opposite. Old chainaxes did not affect saves that were 4+ and worse in any way, current chainaxes deny them entirely. Old chainaxes made saves better than 4+ roll as 4+, current chainaxes have no effect on such saves.

 

Edit: sorry, posted at the same time as Teetengee, who said the same thing

[Teetengee]

I want to try running the butcherhorde with all claw deployment, just to see what happens though.

[Forté]

I want to try running the butcherhorde with all claw deployment, just to see what happens though.

That's where proxies come in. Do it and post results. Pros and cons.

[Rain]

The Slaughterhorde formation requires 4 units of zerks, and 4 units of MoK CSM. So it's kind of an Meq Ork army, which is what it is I guess. The bonus it gives is pretty meh, not sure if I can say it without breaking forum rules, but basically if you roll exactly 8 on charge distance good things happen, otherwise all it does is the old Axe of Khorne effect allowing you to generate extra attacks. For a formation requiring such a huge points investment to form, it is nowhere near as good as loldecurian.

[Teetengee]

The Slaughterhorde formation requires 4 units of zerks, and 4 units of MoK CSM. So it's kind of an Meq Ork army, which is what it is I guess. The bonus it gives is pretty meh, not sure if I can say it without breaking forum rules, but basically if you roll exactly 8 on charge distance good things happen, otherwise all it does is the old Axe of Khorne effect allowing you to generate extra attacks. For a formation requiring such a huge points investment to form, it is nowhere near as good as loldecurian.

Agreed, definitely agreed, but I am thinking that since it isn't so far off from what I normally run, I might as well give it a shot, I'll miss the lost of obsec though. As long as I enjoy the game, win or lose, it doesn't really matter to me how effective it is.

[Prot]

 

I used to play Berzerkers in my Iron Warriors all the time, and I've still cracked them out for fun. It's just I have no expectation of them until a 'Formation' or Dataslate revives them (I have reason to think a codex is coming out.)

 

So is the Khârn's Butcherhoard not agreeable for your interest, prot? If so, may I ask why you don't care for it?

 

 

Honestly? As all the Chaos formations have come out, I've tried them, and posted results, asked for feedback, made tweaks and retried them... often re-posting results.

 

It became disheartening. The Chaos formations although new are quite substandard to stuff for Blood Angels, and now Necrons. Most 'marine' variant formations are just plain bad or simply for flavour.

 

That being said I kept posting my findings and found that very few (if in fact any) people actually try these formations. They just make a snap decision and write it off because it's chaos and it must be bad.

 

That's the part I found discouraging. It seems very easy for people to just 'math-hammer' it out and remove skill and real life circumstances from the equation. I politely challenged the forum when I realized no one else was even testing the formations out, but I think only one person ever responded and it was a second hand story on how a friend won against Astra with the Butcherhorde.

 

At that point I stopped posting here. There was no point. It was always met with disinterest and negativity. The odd new player would message me and ask for advice which I always tried to answer.

 

I quietly created my Butcherhorde and was playing against Astra I believe. It was ugly. Later that week I had my Chaos taken away from me. lol

 

Wow, that turned out to be a long answer. Unintentionally. Sorry about that. I would love people to try Butcherhorde and post experiences. But Necrons came out and that's what I've been playing non-stop but it's getting very boring. I will probably go back to something else shortly. But probably not Butcherhorde. ;)

[Trevak Dal]

Chaos is the Underdog army of the 40k universe-Your once great legions are shattered, fighting each other for the basics to survive, and backed into a place where their Enemy can't follow, all their good stuff has gone to crap-they are fighting against a vastly superior foe who outnumbers them-their only choice is to Attack, said near unassailable enemy.

 

Definitely the COG from gears.

 

 

 

The best (most consistent) way I've gotten Beserkers to work-which we all admit are not a "top tier choice", is that I took the ideas suggested by a youtuber and blogger Fritz 40k and...expanded and narrowed upon it.

 

It's an army that's manipulating game mechanics, so you can kind of throw "fluff" out the window.  5 man Beserker squads, only upgrade being a meltabomb on the Chumpion.  Fill your chart with Zerkers and Spawn (2-3 per spawn pack).  Put the spawn in front, and run to the enemy.

 

It's a MSU army, but also a blob army.  You get stuck in with your wounded squads-who get their attacks in-and then you dog pile them.

 

On second thought...according to the background from the Heresy books, I guess you could say that you are playing fluffy World Eaters, because they're going to die in droves.  But they are also going to kill in droves.  "Victorious Slaughter-or Just Slaughter" as they say.

I'd be way more interested in the Butcherhorde if you didn't have to take Khorne marines too-that was a bitch move GeeDub.  At least in my set up, I got 4+ Juggerlords and MSU/Horde Objective secured Fearless troops (not that I care about objectives.)

[Slaanbull]

I would like to try the butcherhorde or crimson Slaughter kranons bodyguard thing. But 8 squads alone is already a large collection, Factoring in transports and the like makes it all but impossible for me to test it out. They should make it more like X-4 bezerkers and marines, would still retain the feel of the formation, and make it accessible for entry level players to play their army while expanding on it.

Sorry for going off topic, but I just had to respond to you Prot, as I enjoyed reading your reviews of the larger formations.

[Rain]

 

Honestly? As all the Chaos formations have come out, I've tried them, and posted results, asked for feedback, made tweaks and retried them... often re-posting results.

 

It became disheartening. The Chaos formations although new are quite substandard to stuff for Blood Angels, and now Necrons. Most 'marine' variant formations are just plain bad or simply for flavour.

 

That being said I kept posting my findings and found that very few (if in fact any) people actually try these formations. They just make a snap decision and write it off because it's chaos and it must be bad.

 

That's the part I found discouraging. It seems very easy for people to just 'math-hammer' it out and remove skill and real life circumstances from the equation. I politely challenged the forum when I realized no one else was even testing the formations out, but I think only one person ever responded and it was a second hand story on how a friend won against Astra with the Butcherhorde.

 

For what it's worth, I think the Helbrute formations are pretty decent, and fun. The reason people are negative though is some combination of nostalgia for when Chaos was a top tier army, and the fact that trying to play against current top tier armies often feels more frustrating than fun. Especially when it comes to army rules that break the normal rules of the game ie getting to move in the assault phase, getting to run and shoot, firing overwatch with more than one squad at a charging unit, and mass rerolls from fortune and guide. The reason we feel so vanilla is that we tend to just have units with statlines, and other than Belakor and invisibility not many ways to break key game mechanics.