Strazhakov Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 As a general change I'd like to see Chainswords go to AP 6 This. Please this. Why even have Chainswords if they are just as good as a combat knife? AP6 wouldnt change much, except be useful against Cultist Scum and the like, but man this really triggers me. If we go by all canon fluff depictions, Chainswords should be closer to AP4 and Chainaxes AP3, Lightning Claws AP2 etc.. but well then we'd be close to "Movie Marines" and no one wants that? Or do they? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3950366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schurge Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I don't really understand your intro regarding avoiding tournaments etc. It doesn't add anything to your words. No offense, I just find it odd. Okay, so over all Berzerkers are pretty good. For what they are.This is a conclusion, but not one which followed logicly from previous arguments. You literally haven't explained why they are pretty good for what they are, because you merely explained what stats and options they have. Then you compare them to Khorne Marines; which is fine, except you make the mistake of including plasma pistols in the cost (which you shouldn't, because you those aren't a good option to take) and forgetting to mention Berzerkers being Fearless, which is their biggest benefit over Khorne Marines, not Ws5 versus Ws4. Overall a weak analysis, especially considering how old our codex is. Again, I mean no offense, maybe you can take the criticism for potential future write-ups. Now what I myself have to say about them: Short answer is that they are way too expensive, but that's too easy, one can say that about any bad unti in the game pretty much. The stock standard marine profile is a very poor combat profile, so they already don't have that going for them. They basicly cannot reach combat reliably and can even less reliably get a charge off. (Standard infantry movement, with a crappy semi-fleet in the form of a 15 point upgrade) Counter-attack is not good enough when that means that an elite assault unit is hitting with 3 Ws5 S4 attacks. And yes, elite, not meaning the FoC slot they are in. I mean looking at their price. Compare them to Flayed Ones and it's pretty pathetic how bad Khorne Berzekers are at the moment. That unit has better delivery options (Deepstrike or Inifltrate), is overall usually more survivable (cause of 4+ and 5+ 'FnP', although no Fearless) and hits overall harder and more reliably (Berzerkers only hit hard the turn they charge). And they cost 13 points a piece. It's nice to have an assault unit potentially as troops, but not when they are this bad, it's just not worth to take them as troops. Which is sad, because I have a soft spot for them and played a lot with them in 5th edition. What they need? Depends. I'd personally make them cheaper... let's say 16 points a piece and make Chain Axes into giving them Rending. The Mark system need to change too, because indeed, Rage and Counter-Attack is just plain worse than having an extra attack on the profile. I'd also consider things like Fleet or FnP, instead of making them cheaper. Champion of Chaos needs to go as well obviously. Basicly what Berzerkers did (at least for me) in 5th edition: They disembarked and charged from a rhino, hitting with 28 Ws5 S5 attacks at I5, followed by 4 Ws5 S9 powerfist attacks at I1. What Berzerkers did in 6th and do in 7th) They disembark, don't charge, get shot up and hopefully get to swing a few attacks with 3 remaining guys or so after getting charged or next turn when they get to charge (unlikely lol). Tl;DR: Too expensive to be played as a horde assault unit, too easily killed and not killy enough to be an elite assault unit. Way to be a downer man. This game is about skill and Berserkers are just as strong as everyone else. Here, try some Kool-Aid. It is not just about skill. Preparation, critical thinking, unit composition, and luck are key components to actually being good at a money spending can-opener table top game. Berzerkers are not efficient or effective for what they do, compared to similar peer units, in a meta with major emphasis on rapid mobility and shooting. Was joking with him because he was being so negative (thought the reference to Kool-Aid was the tip-off)... I know they suck. I still use them as my core but having to put them in Land Raiders so they can actually assault limits my ability to contest objectives as Khârn two squads of Berserkers and Two Land Raiders (+Legacies I give them) is nearly if not over half your list in most games. Throw them against a dedicated assault units and the best you can hope for is mutually assurred destruction... at worst you get wiped out. And due to their lack of reliable damage and limited AP3 they can easily be tarpitted by a Tactical Squad. I love them though and will always play them as my core. Tellingly... I always lose. If I was smart I would use the Blood Angels or Space Wolf codex rules and proxy my Chaos as a rogue chapter... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3954278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I use a smallish unit of zerlers sometimes alwats between 5-8. They are decent for being annoying and doing splash damage. Plus on the turn they charge they do hit hordes pretty well. In the past ive also had success with 9 + a blind fury lord in a land raider. I ran this unit into a unit of tiggy + 10 THSS termies the bezerkers + lord came out the other side of the combat. Point is they are decent but need support Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3954809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukov Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 · Hidden by Forté, February 21, 2015 - Unconstructive Hidden by Forté, February 21, 2015 - Unconstructive Was joking with him because he was being so negative (thought the reference to Kool-Aid was the tip-off)... I know they suck. Don't worry, I wasn't offended, I assumed you meant it jokingly, hence I didn't reply to it myself. I haz other people defending me though hehe. No but seriously, I think most people who've been around here longer can vote for me regarding me actually being incredibly positive. Considering I've been playing Chaos competitively for quite some years and haven't been whining like ever, I'm pretty pretty much an angel. Wait, did you just say they suck now yourself? Maybe we can share some Kool-Aid then eh? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3954978
Aspiringchaoschampion Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Tbf just because a unit isnt overly competituve it dosent mean a player cant learn how to use that unit to its full effectiveness and win games with it vs a competitive lists. Alot of the lists that seem to he competitive right now are generally either shooting heavy or built around deathstars bezerkers can help vs both kinds Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3954987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 · Hidden by Forté, February 21, 2015 - Off topic Hidden by Forté, February 21, 2015 - Off topic Was joking with him because he was being so negative (thought the reference to Kool-Aid was the tip-off)... I know they suck. Don't worry, I wasn't offended, I assumed you meant it jokingly, hence I didn't reply to it myself. I haz other people defending me though hehe. No but seriously, I think most people who've been around here longer can vote for me regarding me actually being incredibly positive. Considering I've been playing Chaos competitively for quite some years and haven't been whining like ever, I'm pretty pretty much an angel. Wait, did you just say they suck now yourself? Maybe we can share some Kool-Aid then eh? I am currently the most negative person on this board. So I have orange juice instead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3955522
Rain Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 · Hidden by Forté, February 21, 2015 - Off topic Hidden by Forté, February 21, 2015 - Off topic You really are one big ball of of pessimism and snark incinerator. It's why I like you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3955539
incinerator950 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 · Hidden by Forté, February 21, 2015 - Off topic Hidden by Forté, February 21, 2015 - Off topic I hate myself so much I almost enjoy it and can't imagine when my life turns more positive. It's hilariously dusgusting. Just like abandoning the Wartorn for another go at the Putrefactors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3955737
Forté Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I am currently the most negative person on this board. So I have orange juice instead. Not something to brag about or set as a goal. Keep this discussion on topic. Any more deviations will be deleted. Thank you Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3955792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sn4k30r Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Instead berserkers you can use regular Khorne-CSMarines, free / CCW or just 2 points more and you still have the Bolter. Icon you get the Furious charge ou just lose the WS5 and fearless. but what you earn? KHORNE MARINE : Same attacks with Khorne berzerker with CCW free or not. Cheaper. and THEY CAN TAKE SPECIALIST WEAPONS 3x in a 10man squad!!!! . They are troops they dont need Chaos lord with Khorne. KHORNE BERZERKERS Fearless. Expensive. Better WS than marines. Furious Charge (still icon makes regular marines same FC with re-roll charges) so dont count this. No Specialist Weapons only plasma pistols...joke... Elite Slot. After all these.. i believe regular Troop is better :) than Khorne Berzerkers.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3955794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 KHORNE MARINE : THEY CAN TAKE SPECIALIST WEAPONS 3x in a 10man squad!!!! . Take it you mean two specialist and a combi on the Champion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3955797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sn4k30r Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Yeap that i mean still 3x special :) its better have some anti-tank in your troops- CC squard whatever when you want a charge a unit embarked in a transport! ;) instead charge the vehicle and taking overwatch.... etc... and then stay in open field :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3955799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Jackal Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Why not both together? Berzerkers working in tandem with Khorne marked CSM squads with Flamers and Meltas should work well enough Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3955804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratil Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I think the best thing you can do with Beserkers as they stand is buy them a Dreadclaw or invest in a Storm Eagle. Both solve your delivery problems, although the Storm Eagle gives you more options for blast opening transports so the contents can be charged. That being said the Dreadclaw's fire sweep is surprisingly damaging against anything with rear armour 10. I think the direction Beserkers need to move in is one where they are a more elite unit. I'd like to see them move to 2A base and maybe I5 Base (or some way of getting it on the charge) with more weapon options. Melta pistols or melta guns for blasting open transports, maybe 2 per 5. Or at least some form of can opener at range, make it special Khorne weapon, very short range, very angry or similar. I'm not sure about power weapons, certainly on the champ but it would be nice to make them more unique not more similar compared to SM Veterans. Give Chainaxes +1S, Rending maybe? I feel if any CC weapon should be rending it should be a chain axe... If an MEQ came running at me with 5A on the charge, as S5, I5 with Rending, I would be scared. If I was playing with that model I would be prepared to spend some points on it. To balance out the buffs and still keep the price not obscene maybe a similar rule to the Horus Heresy Butchers? Always hit in CC on 3+ to emphasise that these guys are crazy even by Death Company standards? Delivery mechanism without going to Forgeworld seems likely to remain an issue, but chucking 20 or those new Beserkers into a Storm Eagle and throwing it at your opponent has got to be funny as hell. After all what is best in life? To crush your enemies, to drive them before you and hear the lamentations of their controlling player. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3955829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I've said time and again, I wish the icons were like "Pro perks" in older COD games that enhanced a given unit (with marked Dark Apostles taking it a step further and being 1-3 per slot...). Dark Apostles buff your guys, Marked Dark Apostles buff same marked guys, with Warpsmiths Debuffing and techno screwing your Enemies. Again, it's sort of sad that Tau kind of do that stuff...Just Better with Ethereals and a 3 point piece of wargear... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3955835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 So subbing Berzkies, what about khornate marines if you want to skimp on chosen? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3955976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Hmm, I had an idea...Khârn's butcherhorde with the thing from IA13 that gives all units within 12" that has the banner of rage FnP and Fear? Would that boost the zerkers enough? Just have a second detachement with a juggerlord, some bikers and a LR to put the IA13-thingy on... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3955991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Well to me the game in 7th is divided in to 3 unit groups. support, fast msu and deathstars. Good or awesome units are either crossing the boundries between those 3[like a serpent is great troop choice and great support unit]. With zerkers one has to ask, can they do any of the 3 well. Can they msu? Can they deathstar ? Can they be support units? Or do they have some sort of a special trait that makes them awesome on the table? If not then they are not realy worth taking, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3956042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Well to me the game in 7th is divided in to 3 unit groups. support, fast msu and deathstars. Good or awesome units are either crossing the boundries between those 3[like a serpent is great troop choice and great support unit]. With zerkers one has to ask, can they do any of the 3 well. Can they msu? Can they deathstar ? Can they be support units? Or do they have some sort of a special trait that makes them awesome on the table? If not then they are not realy worth taking, Maybe we should try using them as msu/support? Is there a way to do that? Maybe just a single unit or two units for cleanup in an army of heavier hitters? Problem being is that they are a bit expensive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3956133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratil Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Well to me the game in 7th is divided in to 3 unit groups. support, fast msu and deathstars. Good or awesome units are either crossing the boundries between those 3[like a serpent is great troop choice and great support unit]. With zerkers one has to ask, can they do any of the 3 well. Can they msu? Can they deathstar ? Can they be support units? Or do they have some sort of a special trait that makes them awesome on the table? If not then they are not realy worth taking, Maybe we should try using them as msu/support? Is there a way to do that? Maybe just a single unit or two units for cleanup in an army of heavier hitters? Problem being is that they are a bit expensive. I think the issue you'll have there is that, IMO at least, Beserkers are kind of wasted without a transport them can assault out of. Otherwise they'll have a full turn out on the board in which they can be killed and contribute very little apart from (presumably) scoring bodies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3956396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratil Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Hmm, I had an idea...Khârn's butcherhorde with the thing from IA13 that gives all units within 12" that has the banner of rage FnP and Fear? Would that boost the zerkers enough? Just have a second detachement with a juggerlord, some bikers and a LR to put the IA13-thingy on... Might work, I think you'd need a lot of points though as the Butcher Horde is a lot of dudes and points. It's 880 points minimum (wonder if that was intentional). But you'll need to add transports and special weapons into that minimum. If I ran it I would like to add into that at the very least: Melta guns 5 Rhinos 3 Dreadclaws Some good long rage Anti-tank Which means you need another Force org chart I believe, unless you did it unbound. Something like 3 MSU CSM squads, 2 MSU Beseker squads. 1 full size CSM unit with meltas in a Dreadclaw, and 2 lots of 9 Beserkers with your HQs in for the second 2 dreadclaws and cheap units of cultists as your compulsory troops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3956411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targetlock Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I've always been fond of beserkers and my only real issue is with them is they too are expensive and don't have enough options (like extra special melee weaponry and maybe flamers) plus now you've pointed it out the icon of wrath is an odd option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3986619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheex Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 The icon of wrath is fine. It gives pseudo-Fleet, and any ICs attached to the unit also gain Furious Charge. I don't mind so much that they don't have very many options - my biggest issue with them is that they have a singular focus (which is fine) but have little opportunity to use it and aren't even that good at it. Give them an assault transport, make chain axes AP- and Rending, and add special close combat weapons to their list of upgrades (rather than just plasma pistols). A small points reduction wouldn't go astray, either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3986709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I like the Icon of Wrath, as for a change beRzerkers actually get it at a discount versus CSM and other units. Failing charge distance is pretty common, though it is just additional cost for an already costly unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3986722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targetlock Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 oops my bad, bersekers not beserkers ;) have to agree with cheexsta with his comments, i also really dont like paying 3 pts for chainaxes then more points for veterans of the long war. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303299-khorne-berzerkers-a-discussion-and-analysis/page/3/#findComment-3986866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.