Thousand Sons: A discussion and Analysis

[maverike_prime]

Okay, so I'm doing a bit of a theoretical deep dive and examination of several of the "worthless" or 'not usable' units in the Chaos Space Marine Codexes. In this post I'm going to post my take and analysis of the unit in question, and then I'd like feed on the unit and my analysis. Not keep in mind I avoid tournaments like a combination of a clingy X-girl friend combined with the black plague I try to play friendly games. That being said tournaments in this area have an absolute stranglehold so I can't avoid the effect of tournaments (IE the highly competitive atmosphere and the min-maxing list building approach). So it's a bit like doing recreational boxing against Muhammad Ali. Even if he's got both legs and arm tied behind his back and his eye covered, he still knocks you all around the ring and then looks at you with this look that says "Why aren't you trying?"

 

So, Thousand Sons:
You can also see my analysis of the following units:
 

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/maverike_prime/Warhammer/thousand_son_zps54fc50c5.jpg

So 150 points for 4 Thousand Sons with an Aspiring Sorcerer. For that 150 points you get a slightly better then standard Space Marine stat-line, the advantage going to the Thousand Sons LD10 base. Beyond the stat line you get a rather lengthy list of special rules for the unit.

The Sorcerer is bound with the Champions of Chaos (CoC) Special rule, while the entire unit is fearless. The unit automatically has Veterans of the Long War (VotLW), so they have Hatred (Space Marines) which while this sounds nice at first glance, we'll be coming back to it. The unit also have Mark of Tzeentch which gives them a +1 to their Invulnerable save, which when combined with the Aura of Dark Glory wargear that comes with the unit gives them a rather beefy 4+ invulnerable save.

The Sorcerer get a Force Weapon and is a Level 1 psyker. Okay that's note worthy on it's own.

Okay, so 150 points for 5 wounds with a 3+/4++ save. Not exactly horrible. For comparison, 150 points will also get you a 9 Man unit of normal Chaos Marines with an aspiring Champion that has a power weapon and melta bombs while the marines get a bolt pistol and CC weapon, giving them 3 attacks on the charge and 2 if caught flat footed. 5 wounds with a 4++ and a force weapon compared to 9 wounds with a power weapon. It should be noted that the 9 CSMs with that configuration actually come in at 3 points less then the 5 Thousand Sons.

Now for that 150 points the Thousand Sons also get inferno bolts, making their bolters AP3. Okay, that's a nice little marine killer.

However, the unit has some major and unavoidable downsides. The most obvious is it's limited with the Slow And Purposeful special rule, meaning the unit can not run, sweeping advance or fire over watch. Keep these points in mind. I'll be coming back to them.

Less obvious as a limit is the Aspiring Sorceror and his mark of Tzeentch. See Psykers with a Mark of Chaos MUST roll at least once on their patron Gods table. Okay, so he has Mastery Level 1, which means he has to generate his single Psychic power from the Discipline of Tzeentch. Now granted, thanks to Psychic focus he automatically gets the primaris power so he can wind up with 3 powers in total (Force, the Primaris plus the one he generates from the table). Okay, how bad can that be?

Well there's the primaris power, Tzeentch's FireStorm, which is a range 24" random strength between 2 and 7 no Ap blast assault attack that has the chance to inflict a further D3 Strength 3 no AP hits.

-Okay. kind of wonky. But not something I would be under the heading of "Get a kick in the balls". The Random strength is what hurts it as does the lack of any AP.

the 1-2 Result is Boon of mutation, which is a 2" blessing that in theory gives a roll on the Chaos Boon table. To take that test the targeted character must take a S4 no AP hit and survive.

-um... okay. So on it's own you would have to target the Aspiring Sorcerer himself. Otherwise you have to have an Independent Character, with the Mark of Tzeentch join the unit, or otherwise be right next to the Sorcerer while being less then 2" but more then 1" from the squad. yeah... The Boon table is so incredibly hit or miss already that stacking rolls on it just takes 'random' and... well keeps it random.

the 3-4 result is Doom Bolt. a Range 18, S8 AP 1 beam attack that if it causing a vehicle to explode then you roll 2D6 for the range of the explosion.

- okay. an 18" armor killer. That's nice. the Detonate is kind of 'meh' over all since most real threat vehicles are armor 13 so you'd need a 5 to penetrate, and then a 5 to explode it and then get to roll to see how big of an explosion, which on average is going to be 7". Overall good for Rhino Popping before charging what ever chewy morsels were inside it.

the 5-6 result is Breath of Chaos, a 2 charge Template S1 AP2 poisoned (4+) witch fire. Well it's poisoned, so it's going to wound anyone on a 4+, and it's an AP2 so anything that doesn't have an invul save is goign to be hurting. It does have a nice bonus in that if used against a vehicle, it automatically inflicts a glancing hit on a 4+.

- okay, over all not exactly bad. It's not going to be taking out Land Raiders on it's own.

So of the 4 options the Aspiring Sorcerer has from the Tzeentch table, it's Primaris power is "ok" the 1-2 is rather underwhelming and I would just swap it for the Primaris anyway. The 3-4 is the 'want' power from the table, while the Breath of Chaos is... well it's interesting but honestly it seems like something better suited to Nurgle then Tzeentch.

Do they have any other downsides? Yeah, they do. Firstly they have no options to really speak of outside adding more Thousand Sons to the unit. And at that they are 23 points each. Yes the Aspiring Sorcerer can take melta bombs and boon of mutation. Yeah, Boon of Mutation has the same problem as Boon of Mutation Psychic power.

Okay, so how do they really stand up on the battlefield?

Well, the best way I can describe them is to say they are somewhere between a lame shield and a glass sword. When they hit hard, they do a lot of damage that most units can not walk off. They are still space marines meaning they shoot their targets on a 3 or better, so one average you're going to land 2 out of every 3 shots you make with them. Nice. They have S4 AP3 bolters. So against most marine forces you'll be wounding on 4+ and most of the time normal marines either won't have an invulnerable save or will be forced to take their cover saves. So I did some numbers grinding and figured that a 10 man Thousand Sons unit, rapid firing at a 10 man Tacticle squad of Space Marines will average out to 7 wounds per round of shooting.

So the upside of that scenario: those marines you wounded, don't get their armor save. Oh, and chances are good that you will be able to charge them and finish off the remains of the squad.

The downside of the scenario: it's very optimistic and in a vacuum. The other problem with the scenario, that 10 man Thousand Sons unit is going to run you 265 points, compared to the 10 Tactical marines that with a melta gun run a more budget friendly 150 points. So while it's a semi-safe bet that your 10 man unit is going to wipe out their 10 man unit, realize that you've only made back 150 of your 265 points. You're still coming up a rather painful 115 point short. And that's assuming that the 265 points worth of Thousand Sons get to engagement with that Tactical squad unharmed. Considering that 265 points is more then 1/10th of a 2500 point army list, that's leaving you at a sizable disadvantage that's only going to get bigger the more points you put into that unit. Want to give them a Transport? Well now you're looking at 300 points for the unit. Want to go with a Max-sized unit for maximum fire power ability? 500 points before you add a transport of any kind.

So the strengths of the unit are definitely their short ranged fire power ability coupled with their 4++. Being able to put out 2 AP3 bolter shots per model at 12" is painful to Marine and marine equivalent armies. It's no more effective against 4+ and worse save based groups then normal bolters though. So the cost/benefit exchange here really kind of hurts. Though there is an addendum to this point:

 

For 15 points, one model in the unit of Thousand Sons can take The Icon of Flame which gives all their bolters soul blaze. So... it's more of a pro then it is a con, as it gives a unit of Thousand Sons the ability to inflict additional wounds which can help stack up against hoard armies. This has it's plus of being more damage, but against Marine equivalent units the chances of these translating to additional wounds is slim. Though against the likes of Astra Militarum, Ork Boyz, or Tyranid Gaunts and Gargoyales it might add up to make Thousand Sons more effective fire bases.

However, even with the Icon of Wraith the high cost of the Thousand Sons coupled with their same as marines survival rate and compounded by their Slow and Purposeful special rule make them a tricky unit to make use of.

The Downsides of the unit... that is a longer list. The Aspiring Sorcerer, the Slow and Purposeful, the lack of reliable armor beating abilities, and their painful price tag.

Anyone have any additional info to bring up or alternative views on Thousand Sons?

[Excessus]

One positive thing is that they don't need cover. Where other troops cower in ruins for any ap2-3 firepower, TS can walk about in the open with their own little 4++. The aspiring sorcerer is quite dangerous in melee, as with a force axe he'll be able to ID most things and has 4 attacks on the charge, he is also one of the more durable PA champions we have with a 4++ save in challenges so he'll survive until he can swing his axe.

 

The unit adds 1 dice to the spell pool, he doesn't have to throw a spell himself, he can contribute to Ahriman vaporising a unit or daemonic allies summoning more friends...

[Tenebris]

I second the observation provided by Excessus. The Thousand Sons are my favorite legion and I would dare say my favorite unit in the 40k universe so well you can imagine the pain playing them for the past four editions... 

 

The only upside I have noticed is that the Aspiring Sorcerer is indeed a good surprise killer since time and again this boyo has killed the likes of characters, Tyranid MC, or generic big boys, with his humble Force weapon. On the other hand the lack of Snapfire hurts the unit a lot and it is dead once something closes in melee with them. 

 

The main deficiency of the unit is the lackluster Tzeentch discipline which does little to make the Aspiring Sorcerer the supposed "heavy weapon" of the squad. The discipline is unreliable and does not provide the edge needed for such an elite unit to survive and prosper on the modern battlefield.

 

Sure the removed need for cover as well as the option to shoot and charge are good but both volume of shots and volume of attacks make both strategies improbable unless you really are willing to sacrifice your Thousand Sons. The only time that this beloved unit of mine has returned its investment in points it is when the Aspiring Sorcerer kills a big beast or character with the activated Force Weapon (a rare occurrence nowadays, more common in the 6th).

 

Transportation is an option to capitalize on those AP 3 bolters and the Rapid Fire rule but here we are entering into prohibitive point costs for what is essentially little gain, and done better by the Chosen or simply generic CSM. AP 3 is fine and fun, but nowadays killing marines is not that much of a problem, especially when on the other hand a Blastmaster can kill them more and better for a discount in points for the squad of Noise Marines, which are ATM the premier marine killers in our book (and great against Eldar and Necrons too).

 

As it is I play the Thousand Sons when and if I can afford to be fluffy, but on a serious and competitive level of gameplay they sit safely on the shelf. Sad but true, and consider this when I speak as a heartbroken soul for the Thousand Sons are the reason why I am playing 40k and Chaos in the first place.  

[maverike_prime]

One positive thing is that they don't need cover. Where other troops cower in ruins for any ap2-3 firepower, TS can walk about in the open with their own little 4++. The aspiring sorcerer is quite dangerous in melee, as with a force axe he'll be able to ID most things and has 4 attacks on the charge, he is also one of the more durable PA champions we have with a 4++ save in challenges so he'll survive until he can swing his axe.

A note worthy look at the Aspiring Sorcerer I hadn't considered before. I would offer up a response (not a counter mind you just a response) to that point by saying the Slow and Purposeful rule prevents the unit from being able to sweeping advance. This would require the charging Thousand Sons to capitalize on their charge and either wipe out the unit whole sale, which depending on the unit they charge is likely to be a long shot as the squad itself lacks Close combat specialization or numbers to reliable do this, or damage the unit to such an extent that a counter charge would not be in their favor, something more likely to happen with lower model count units such as Marines. If the Thousand Sons win combat and cause the enemy to flee and the enemy regroups next turn it's nearly garunteed that they will be with in charge range to launch their own charge against the Thousand Sons and, thanks to Slow and Purposeful, the Thousand Son's can't over watch that charge. Though with the Sorcerer likely having won his challenge he may get something good from the Chaos Boon Table.

 

The unit adds 1 dice to the spell pool, he doesn't have to throw a spell himself, he can contribute to Ahriman vaporising a unit or daemonic allies summoning more friends...

So the unit can be more an asset to the HQ then it is to the army itself. Interesting thought and with a high level sorcerer like a Ahirman I can see it being an interesting take on the unit. Might have to play this out a couple times and think about it.

 

 

I second the observation provided by Excessus. The Thousand Sons are my favorite legion and I would dare say my favorite unit in the 40k universe so well you can imagine the pain playing them for the past four editions... 

 

The only upside I have noticed is that the Aspiring Sorcerer is indeed a good surprise killer since time and again this boyo has killed the likes of characters, Tyranid MC, or generic big boys, with his humble Force weapon. On the other hand the lack of Snapfire hurts the unit a lot and it is dead once something closes in melee with them. 

 

The main deficiency of the unit is the lackluster Tzeentch discipline which does little to make the Aspiring Sorcerer the supposed "heavy weapon" of the squad. The discipline is unreliable and does not provide the edge needed for such an elite unit to survive and prosper on the modern battlefield.

 

Sure the removed need for cover as well as the option to shoot and charge are good but both volume of shots and volume of attacks make both strategies improbable unless you really are willing to sacrifice your Thousand Sons. The only time that this beloved unit of mine has returned its investment in points it is when the Aspiring Sorcerer kills a big beast or character with the activated Force Weapon (a rare occurrence nowadays, more common in the 6th).

 

Transportation is an option to capitalize on those AP 3 bolters and the Rapid Fire rule but here we are entering into prohibitive point costs for what is essentially little gain, and done better by the Chosen or simply generic CSM. AP 3 is fine and fun, but nowadays killing marines is not that much of a problem, especially when on the other hand a Blastmaster can kill them more and better for a discount in points for the squad of Noise Marines, which are ATM the premier marine killers in our book (and great against Eldar and Necrons too).

 

As it is I play the Thousand Sons when and if I can afford to be fluffy, but on a serious and competitive level of gameplay they sit safely on the shelf. Sad but true, and consider this when I speak as a heartbroken soul for the Thousand Sons are the reason why I am playing 40k and Chaos in the first place.

So I guess the primary point of discussion regarding the Thousand Sons now is what is good and what is bad about the Tzeentch table. I think I spelled out my views on that topic in my original post so I'll just C+P those points here. I'm more interested in other people's view of it.

 

 

 

Well there's the primaris power, Tzeentch's FireStorm, which is a range 24" random strength between 2 and 7 no Ap blast assault attack that has the chance to inflict a further D3 Strength 3 no AP hits.

 

-Okay. kind of wonky. But not something I would be under the heading of "Get a kick in the balls". The Random strength is what hurts it as does the lack of any AP.

 

the 1-2 Result is Boon of mutation, which is a 2" blessing that in theory gives a roll on the Chaos Boon table. To take that test the targeted character must take a S4 no AP hit and survive.

 

-um... okay. So on it's own you would have to target the Aspiring Sorcerer himself. Otherwise you have to have an Independent Character, with the Mark of Tzeentch join the unit, or otherwise be right next to the Sorcerer while being less then 2" but more then 1" from the squad. yeah... The Boon table is so incredibly hit or miss already that stacking rolls on it just takes 'random' and... well keeps it random.

 

the 3-4 result is Doom Bolt. a Range 18, S8 AP 1 beam attack that if it causing a vehicle to explode then you roll 2D6 for the range of the explosion.

 

- okay. an 18" armor killer. That's nice. the Detonate is kind of 'meh' over all since most real threat vehicles are armor 13 so you'd need a 5 to penetrate, and then a 5 to explode it and then get to roll to see how big of an explosion, which on average is going to be 7". Overall good for Rhino Popping before charging what ever chewy morsels were inside it.

 

the 5-6 result is Breath of Chaos, a 2 charge Template S1 AP2 poisoned (4+) witch fire. Well it's poisoned, so it's going to wound anyone on a 4+, and it's an AP2 so anything that doesn't have an invul save is goign to be hurting. It does have a nice bonus in that if used against a vehicle, it automatically inflicts a glancing hit on a 4+.

 

- okay, over all not exactly bad. It's not going to be taking out Land Raiders on it's own.

 

So of the 4 options the Aspiring Sorcerer has from the Tzeentch table, it's Primaris power is "ok" the 1-2 is rather underwhelming and I would just swap it for the Primaris anyway. The 3-4 is the 'want' power from the table, while the Breath of Chaos is... well it's interesting but honestly it seems like something better suited to Nurgle then Tzeentch.

 

 

 

[Strazhakov]

Imho Thousand Sons would become immediately playable and even good if they either returned to their old, somewhat OP rule that only S5+ can hurt them at all or were plainly given 2 wounds each.

 

Another idea I had was to give the Sorcerer some bonus psychic power that lets them rez/revive/summon fallen Sons back to life. They are just Ghosts in armour afterall. Maybe with some restictions like it doesn't work if they just got melta'ed/plasma'ed in the face.

[tdemayo]

I played the thousand sons under the St5 rule and the 2W rule back in 3rd.

 

The immunity to less than St5 was paired with an inability to charge. Ever.  It was a very odd play experience.

 

The 2 wounds were fun, and the Sons were still vulnerable to instant death.  It was also pleasantly different from being simply high T or having an invulnerable save. With the ability to choose psychic powers the Asp Champ made a pretty good heavy weapon replacement.

 

Imho Thousand Sons would become immediately playable and even good if they either returned to their old, somewhat OP rule that only S5+ can hurt them at all or were plainly given 2 wounds each.

 

Another idea I had was to give the Sorcerer some bonus psychic power that lets them rez/revive/summon fallen Sons back to life. They are just Ghosts in armour afterall. Maybe with some restictions like it doesn't work if they just got melta'ed/plasma'ed in the face.

[Irbis]

So against most marine forces you'll be wounding on 4+ and most of the time normal marines either won't have an invulnerable save or will be forced to take their cover saves. So I did some numbers grinding and figured that a 10 man Thousand Sons unit, rapid firing at a 10 man Tacticle squad of Space Marines will average out to 7 wounds per round of shooting.

The problem with this is that these Marines are going to have a vehicle TS can't reliably open unless you risk losing to perils before action starts. Any smart enemy will just charge your TS unit from that vehicle denying their shooting as sadly they are worse than Tactical marines in melee and will lose against literally any Marine unit close in points to them, sometimes even far inferior ones.

 

Terminators or 2+ saves of any kind even at half their points will murder them, as will any massed attack in general. 3+ and W1 isn't that hard to bring down, and they are among the most expensive per model marines around making losses extra painful.

 

One positive thing is that they don't need cover. Where other troops cower in ruins for any ap2-3 firepower, TS can walk about in the open with their own little 4++.

Which in theory is nice but given their inability to get anywhere in time and general being very short ranged threat much less impressive in reality.

 

The aspiring sorcerer is quite dangerous in melee, as with a force axe he'll be able to ID most things and has 4 attacks on the charge, he is also one of the more durable PA champions we have with a 4++ save in challenges so he'll survive until he can swing his axe.

With force axe he is I1 which means anything more dangerous than naked Marine sergeant will slaughter him before he swings, 4++ or not. And he is not allowed to refuse that challenge, either.

 

That on unit being glass-fragile despite costing as much as HQ Sorcerer is not very acceptable, especially seeing he is very likely to kill himself with peril before enemy even closes to melee.

 

The unit adds 1 dice to the spell pool, he doesn't have to throw a spell himself, he can contribute to Ahriman vaporising a unit or daemonic allies summoning more friends...

For 150 pts minimum, I can think of a lot better sources of spell dice. Squad of regular CSM with MoT and Tzeenth Sorcerer is far more killy and affordable, sadly, and while they might not have AP3 this is not going to come into play against anyone smart about using his vehicles and cover saves.

[Xenith]

Thousand Sons.

 

Discussion: My god, dont those models look amazing? And what, they also have the best background out of all the legions, full stop? Awesome!

 

Analysis: I must buy more Thousand Sons and put them on the table top.

[Skallagoose]

I love the fluff of the thousand sons. I think it really is a greek-tragedy what happened (I'm currently reading the book 'Thousand Sons'. 

 

That said they are heavily over costed. For example; In this current meta of the game you gain a shooting attack if you are charged (most of the time, some exceptions) in the form of snap-shots. This doesn't usually give any reliable results, BUT it can (snap shooting a dread with a melta before it kills my unit). They also pay for not being able to upgrade their weapons. Sure you have AP3 bolters, but that is great for anti-infantry… Generally i like to have my infantry be all-round great at what they do. Throw a melta or a flamer or plasma to assured assistance for certain match-ups. TS don't get an upgrade benefit.

 

Sure you get a 3+/4++ which is amazing, but you rarely use the 4++. Having a marine be more survivable then a terminator is funny as hell, but they don't recuperate their points through damage. Maybe if they made inferno bolts rending (instead of ap3) or ignore cover, but this will never happen as AP3 have been on the TS since i can remember.

 

Changes to make them better is to reduce the cost of the models. Allow an upgrade for the sorc to be a lvl 2(3). Add a rule where if the sorc is alive in the squad the troops gain the ability to fire overwatch. And lastly; increase their survivability to match the fluff. FNP is already part of plague marines, and immune from S4 and lower seems overpowered to a lot of other armies. I would instead make it a 3+/3++, or add a wound.

[Xenith]

I would essentially port all of the LotD rules onto the TS.

 

A straight 3+ Invulnerable and ignores cover bolters would be awesome sauce.

[maverike_prime]

Hey all, I had a bit of a brain storm on the topic of Thousand Sons and wanted to toss it over to you guys for some feed back on the thought. One of the issues people mentioned with Thousand Sons as a unit is the "Sorcerer tax". So what if the 'tax' was removed, and made a purchasable upgrade. Here's my thought. Base, the unit comes with 5 T-sons. They are still Slow and Purposeful. You can buy the upgrade to has a Sorcerer in the unit and the Thousand Son switch from being Slow and Purposeful to being Relentless. I feel that that this would make the Sorcerer actually worth putting in the unit even if he's still locked into a so-so Psychic discipline

 

Thoughts?

[Skallagoose]

Hey all, I had a bit of a brain storm on the topic of Thousand Sons and wanted to toss it over to you guys for some feed back on the thought. One of the issues people mentioned with Thousand Sons as a unit is the "Sorcerer tax". So what if the 'tax' was removed, and made a purchasable upgrade. Here's my thought. Base, the unit comes with 5 T-sons. They are still Slow and Purposeful. You can buy the upgrade to has a Sorcerer in the unit and the Thousand Son switch from being Slow and Purposeful to being Relentless. I feel that that this would make the Sorcerer actually worth putting in the unit even if he's still locked into a so-so Psychic discipline

 

Thoughts?

Eh. The sorc is needed for a lot of reasons, fluff and gameplay. I think simply removing the "tax" works better- as when you get units already you get a cut on their costs (why if you kit out a lord the same as a named character they cost more and have less stats).

 

I do really like the idea of making them go to relentless with a sorc. I just think in this game losing the ability to overwatch is too great of a loss

[tdemayo]

I am of the opinion that 1k sons need a truly radical overhaul: T6 perhaps, or 2 wounds again, and more magical options on the integral sorceror. If he could upgrade to lvl 2 and they ditched the horrible mandatory spell lists, that would be awesome...

[Sception]

Theyre upwards of twice the cost of regular csms, depending on how many you take, which means, point for point, they're much more vulnerable to small arms fire, and their inv save doeasn't actually help as much as it seems against ap3 stuff. The ap3 bolters are nice, but we just established that thousand sons are especially vulnerable against small arms fire, so they dont exactly live long within rapid fire range, and that's compounded by their extra-vulnerability to melee.

 

And all that for an expensive elite specialist unit for cracking power armor, something our faction doesn't have much trouble with to start.

 

I just don't see it, much as I don't see the appeal of the models, which are everything wrong with the basic csm models, since they're the same bloody models, compounded with all the hassle of finecast.

 

 

If you like them thematically, I can certainly appreciate that. But neither the rules nor the models live up to that conceptual potential, imo.

[Zeratil]

I also think Thousand Sons need a rethink, they have a number of issues.

 

1.) Costings. All characters and units are not created equal, certain wargear and abilities are far more useful on better characters than others. Power weapons are more useful on Lords than Sarges, this is only somewhat accounted for in the cost of said characters. In the case of Thousand Sons the AS is paying far too much for psychic powers because he only has 1 wound and no way of stopping perils of the warp, which are now both more likely (if you want a similar chance of suceeding compared to before) and more deadly. In the case of the Rubricae themselves they're paying a lot of PPM for an inv save that is not that useful because (contrary to the fluff) it makes rubrics no more tougher against the sort of mass anti-infantry firepower one usually directs at MEQs. Now the inv save isn't totally worthless, but in a 3+ armour save model it's far less useful than on a 2+ save model and this rarely seems to be accounted for well in the rules.

 

2.) Background to Stats conversion. What are Rubricae supposed to be like in the background material? How does this translate to the tabletop? 
The problem here is that the exact codex description of the Rubricae seems to change a lot, but the most recent one is "...far more durable than the Chaos Space Marines of their brother legions - a plasma blast or powered blade may tear a Thousand Son's armour wide open to negligible effect, for the power of Tzeetch surrounds and sustains them better than physical armour ever could'. This kind of matches their rules, the power of tzeentch does protect them from weapons that would kill an ordinary CSM. But only if those weapons are of devastating effect. Contrary to the description against bolter fire the Rubrics own armour is more effective than the power of tzeentch (as represented by the Aura and Mark.) As far as I recall there's not much mention of how tough or not Rubrics are in the previous codexs, just the standard 'automaton' description. The second part of the background is that Rubrics serve as bodyguards to sorcerers and when in battle become more animated and more like the marines they used to be. In addition the sorcerer often enchants the ammunition of the Rubrice to explode with 'sorcerous blasts' that burn the souls of their enemies.
 

  So what's the most suitable rules interpretation for that? My personal preference would be to make the Rubricae 2W each. I feel that more accurately represents both the fact they are Very Angry Dust inside power armour and thus hard to hurt with conventional weapons unless you use something like a lascannon or a battle cannon to blow/vapourise them into tiny pieces. I like the idea of an inv save, but maybe it should just be a +1 to Inv save or 6+/5+ if you don't have one already, so you value good cover, but otherwise you can just stride across the battlefield. There are other approaches, improved toughness is one, although this is kind of the corner of Nurgle marines. FNP likewise is the usual province of another chaos power. Improving their armour save to 2+ is another option I quite like, but then they have the opposite issue they do now, super tough against anti-infantry, just as tough against plasma weapons compared to a normal CSM (plus then what advantage would hoped for Rubric Terminators have?) +1 wound is a good way to make almost any marine 'more rubricy'. Bikers, termies, assault marines can all benefit from it so it has universal application.

 

  The ammunition is a lot more open to interpretation, personally I quite like the AP3, although without easy access to divination (and thus ignore cover) it's less effective than one might think. It could also easily be Rending or Fleshbane or any number of other rules instead given the vagueness of the of the descriptions.

 

3.) Tabletop Role. This is the one I'm sure GW thinks the least about, its not very beer and pretzelly. What role should Thousand Sons fulfill? Both in and of themselves and as part of a wider codex. Firstly I think that they should be a viable Troops Choice, this both means fulfilling some minimum requirement on a force org chart and being an effective stand-in/replacement for the typical chaos marine. The Force Org chart thing either means making them troops, or having a chart that allows them to be taken as the minimum requirement in some way while still being Elites. This is so people can take a Sorcerer, some Thousand Sons and say 'look , my Thousand Sons warband has no need of your cultists/bog standard CSM. The second part is more tricky, if only because bog standard CSM aren't great to begin with. Offensively, with AP3 bolters and unreliable psychic powers the current KSons are very anti-infantry, more specifically anti-MEQ orientated, but defensively seem more designed around withstanding special weapons fire and vehicle fire. So I find their role slightly confused. The fix here I think is to make a rule that allows Rubric marines firing solid shot weapons to fire sorcerous ammuntion. This could make the ammunition Rending, or resolved at AP3 or whatever, but it would also mean that Rubric units could possbily have more weapon options like heavy bolters or autocannons, there doesn't seem to me to be any reason than ensorcelled ammunition has to be bolter ammunition.

 

  The psychic abilities of the AS also need looking at, as the Tzeentch lore is just....not good, and without someway to mitigate perils the ASs just seem to die all the time for me. They rarely make it through a game even when I'm not throwing that many dice at psychic powers. Personally I would like the option to sacrifice a Rubric Marine instead of the Sorcerer taking it. If they have 2W then you're 'losing out' on a wound to the perils but get to keep your sorcerer alive. You could give the sorcerer 2 wounds, but there isn't really the same justification as with the Rubricae and their automaton status. Plus it would make the Sorcerer much better in melee against similarly equipped sarges, which I'm not sure is in keeping with the background material.

 

  As for unit rules I'm all for making them simply relentless, the background is that in combat something of their old selves return and they move with greater purpose. So essentially as I see it they're slow and purposeful off the battlefield, relentless on. Given that we don't play them off the battlefield just give them relentless. Although some restriction on running and sweeping might be fine. It's the lack of overwatch that annoys me most here.

--------------------
 

  Changes to the Thousand Son unit aside what I would really like to see is a 'Cult Upgrade' package for any Chaos Infantry/Bike unit, where the 'Rubricae' one makes the sarge compulsory and makes him an aspiring sorcerer, gives all models without the character rule +1W and +1Inv Save and Rending with any bolter or autocannon weapon. Price it fairly across a codex and you have a way to make tough, relatively unique armies composed of more than just fancy bolter marines. Repeat process across other Legions/Gods and you have a happy playerbase. Sadly this is simply wishlisting on my part :(

While I'm at it, Sorcerer dreadnoughts please.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

so overall issues are,

 

Tsons squad

1) price 

2) not very adaptable

3) Their main strengths are easy to overcome (with a vehicle and some cc in the mix) 

4) Damage tolerances are nothing exiting

 

Leader units

1) Can do damage if they reach CC but are still fairly limited. 

2) I have no idea about a chaos lord sorcerer, these guys even used anymore? 

 

Other Units

1) are horrors still used? and if so are they expensive, as if they were fairly cheap id use them as meat shields. 

2) What support vehicles are being used to support if any at all? 

[Excessus]

so overall issues are,

 

Tsons squad

1) price 

2) not very adaptable

3) Their main strengths are easy to overcome (with a vehicle and some cc in the mix) 

4) Damage tolerances are nothing exiting

 

Leader units

1) Can do damage if they reach CC but are still fairly limited. 

2) I have no idea about a chaos lord sorcerer, these guys even used anymore? 

 

Other Units

1) are horrors still used? and if so are they expensive, as if they were fairly cheap id use them as meat shields. 

2) What support vehicles are being used to support if any at all? 

We haven't had Sorcerer Lords or Horrors in our codex for quite some time now...

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Oh right, well that's even worse :( 

[Zeratil]

 

so overall issues are,

 

Tsons squad

1) price 

2) not very adaptable

3) Their main strengths are easy to overcome (with a vehicle and some cc in the mix) 

4) Damage tolerances are nothing exiting

 

Leader units

1) Can do damage if they reach CC but are still fairly limited. 

2) I have no idea about a chaos lord sorcerer, these guys even used anymore? 

 

Other Units

1) are horrors still used? and if so are they expensive, as if they were fairly cheap id use them as meat shields. 

2) What support vehicles are being used to support if any at all? 

We haven't had Sorcerer Lords or Horrors in our codex for quite some time now...

 

 

 

  You can ally in daemons fairly easily though. My 'standard' daemon allies detachment is a Herald of Tzeetch, 17 Horrors and a Soul Grinder (phys repped by my defiler).

 

Good:

Herald is a good source of divination

Horros act as a warp charge battery (I get 6 from mine to begin with, though casualties degrade it)

 

Bad:

Horrors die easy

Heralds die easy

 

Leader Units:

No more Sorcerer Lords, just Sorcerers, although they're a reasonable HQ with quite a few options.

 

Other Units:

  I run my Thousand Sons as a mix of Rubric marines and cultists, about 1 squad of each per 1000 points. Other than I usually have A Sicaran and a Fire Raptor and mix it up with daemon allies or Lost and the Damned allies representing the warbands supply of despensible Tzaangor bolter fodder. So I pretty much use IA13 for my support units these days. I use the cultists as backfield ovjective holders and the Sons either use Rhinos, Dreadclaws or Storm Eagles to push upfield.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Seems like a reasonably tactical list given the parameters within which you must be forced to play.

 

What kinda issues have you come against when fielding this force against other/similar factions? 

 

(not trolling just finishing of the dark angels book before starting on the thousand sons, If i like what i read i may get and paint a few squads) 

[Zeratil]

Well our local group aims for a middle ground between effective and fluffy. My typical list would be something like:

 

HQ ML 3 Sorcerer with some wargear

T  8 Thousand Sons + Rhino as his personal guard.

T  18 cultists with autoguns as backfield objective holders

 

E Giant Chaos Spawn

 

FA Hellblade

 

HS Sicaran w. las sponsons

HS Fire Raptor with reapers and missiles

HS 2 Rapier Laser Destroyer artillery batteries

 

Allies

 

Lvl 3 Herald

17 Horrors

Soul Grinder

 

  Comes out at about 1500. It's a little light on effective infantry, the cultists generally stay back field, the horrors advance slightly to mid field and I use the thousand sons, giant chaos chaos spawn and the soul grinder (along with the fliers) to push further up towards the enemy deployment zone. Not all of these units are great, but I find them all either fun to play or enjoy using the models I have for them.

 

I find my list does well against other similarly designed lists but it does have weaknesses, my hard match ups are generally things like my mates Imperial Guard. Wyverns mess up daemons and cultists which leaves few scoring troops, and the rest of the army doesn't really put out enough fire power to deal with fearless infantry blobs (although the Fire Raptor can make a hell of a dent in them). Tau have also proven troublesome, one of our group has just picked them up and this list doesn't seem to have a convincing answer to broadsides and riptides, although crisis suits get taken apart by Thousand Sons. Eldar can also be tough, or rather, Wave Serpents are tough, but everyone has that problem.

 

This list does well against marines and mechanised armies, especially mechanised or bikers. Between the sons, divination from the herald and things like the avenger cannon there's a lot of AP3 firepower that can be moved quite quickly, and the sicaran and hell blade are great for taking out transports and light armour. The rapier batteries are a new addition, as I wanted a source of high strength, low AP firepower to point at heavier units. So far it has done okay, but the shortish 36" range has proven to be an issue.

 

  Most of the time it's the good units (Fire Raptor, Sicaran, Rapiers) making up for the less effective ones. Getting lucky with psychic powers can be very useful, the 17 horrors can put out a very large number of shots, especially with divination. I usually run the sorcerer with telepathy, going for the primaris if I don't get invis. His other powers are Tzeentch (required) and Daemonology (required to fulfil the relic rules in IA13) so the sorcerer can summon some more horrors onto objectives where needed.

 

 

  Best moment so far was the sorcerer trying to summon a unit of horrors to stand between him and a hive tyrant, failing the re-roll from spell familliar and rolling perils. Got the good result on perils, used the last psychic dice to cast force weapon and instant deathing the hive tyrant on the charge thanks to the buffs from the perils result.

[the jeske]

Could you explain the role of the 1ksons in this list. Because it seems like you have enough low ap shots without them. There are lower point cost power dice sources,  cheaper troops and you would have to be locked in to the realy horrible tzeench school on your sorc.

[hummus]

how about this as a passive power or basic warp charge 1 power:
Masters of fate
as long as the sorceror is alive then all thousand sons can reroll any ones for to hit, to wound or saving throws

[Zeratil]

Could you explain the role of the 1ksons in this list. Because it seems like you have enough low ap shots without them. There are lower point cost power dice sources,  cheaper troops and you would have to be locked in to the realy horrible tzeench school on your sorc.

 

  Ultimately Jeske the role of the Sons is to make it so it's my Thousand Sons warband, not my Tzeentch/IA13 warband. They make a good, tough bodyguard for the Sorc, I find people are a little wary of charging the unit because the aspiring sorcerer only needs to get lucky with a force weapon once, but they are admittedly too expensive in that role to be truly justified. The AP firepower does get used, but you're right, the Fire Raptor is the king of anti-infantry and anti-transport, it doesn't need much help in doing that, and it also tends to stay in the list because the model is gorgeous. Best looking flyer in the game I feel. I've tried running that unit in a Dreadclaw rather than a Rhino, and they did awesomely well in one game and terrible in another two. The problem being that the unit only has a 1/3 chance of having any anti-tank at all, so two times my opponent was able to essentially ignore them as they just couldn't reliably threaten his vehicles. I'd rather use the the dreadclaw space for something that can use the ability to assault out of it more, as that's kind of that you're paying for with that unit.

 

 

 

how about this as a passive power or basic warp charge 1 power:

Masters of fate

as long as the sorceror is alive then all thousand sons can reroll any ones for to hit, to wound or saving throws

 

 I'd actually like to see that as a Formation perk perhaps, I do like the idea of the presence of the Sorcerer making a difference to the unit, although I would kind of prefer personally if it felt like it was adding some advantage, rather than removing an annoying disadvantage. Then the sorcerer dying irritates you less.

[Skallagoose]

A formation chart would help each god section with benefiting their unique play style (because each cult troop is missing something massive from it- at least it feels like).

 

And i really think the thousand sons would be fine- and I mean perfect for their niche- if they increased the Wounds on the sorc, gave him options to upgrade levels, and overhauled the Tzeentch sorc powers to include things that have higher s and lower ap to act as the heavy weapons to the squad. Maybe something like;

 

-Template S5 Ap 4 Warpflame 

-R 36" S8 Ap 3 Warpflame

-R 36" S7 AP 2 Small blast, Warpflame 

-R 42" S9 AP 2 Warpflame

 

I'd personally overhaul warp flame too, make it something that either benefits a unit ONCE and only ONCE or change how it functions. But if you noticed i just took existing heavy weapons and based a profile on them to give a little more punch to the unit. I would expect GW writers to have a little more flare then that but with the lack of ranged high strength in Chaos Codexes (especially daemons) i think it could fill a needed niche within the codex