Demus Ragnok Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 The Mod formerly known as 1000heathens. Or Chuck Norris. Or my sister's youngest boy. (That kid is seven and has a disturbing mix of high intelligence and cool indifference.) Or ya know, an elite group of Terra's most capable warriors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3947249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 Or ya know, an elite group of Terra's most capable warriors. The A team? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3947259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Or ya know, an elite group of Terra's most capable warriors.The A team? :P Nah man, the mighty morphin power rangers. :lol: I'd have to read more on TWs, but weren't they all mentally unstable? I can't imagine one having the patience to train children how to fight. If the Emperor wanted highly trained, highly disciplined elite troops that followed his every command, wouldn't he have his best soldiers train them? By that I mean the Custodes. Were the Custodes even around in the Unification wars? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3947289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I would guess that it was the Custodes. They are a standing military strength that could spare some members to train the Astartes. This trains the trainers? Who trained the Custodes? Who trained the Thunder Warriors? Who trained the Emperor? Who trained Malcador? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3947292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 I feel like this comes down to the age old did the chicken or the egg come first (it was the chicken for those scientifically inclined) as I feel that you need astartes to train astartes. I guess humans would be useful to an extant, but I feel that they wouldn't get the job done quite as well. Though that may explain some of the 1st's idiosyncrasies. Though I guess a good analogy would be how normal humans (marines and scientists) trained the Spartan II's from halo before a Spartan II would go on to train the Spartan IIIs (with some in augmented human assistance too). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3947297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Actually, scientifically the egg came first. Normal humans trained the primarchs, so why not marines? I still imagine at least one Custode over seeing the whole process though, similar to the spartan 3 analogy. In fact that analogy is perfect considering astartes, like spartan 3s were the mass produced version of spartan 2/custodes. I loved Hyanidaes story with the first astartes being trained by a Thunder warrior, but I don't think TWs would make practical teachers... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3947348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Why wouldn't the Thunder Warriors make practical teachers (other than the potential 'now kill your mentor' thing)? For all their instability (which seems to have resulted in a shorter 'shelf life' rather than being 100% crazy all the time), the Thunder Regiments still did most of the work in the unification of Terra. They couldn't have driven back the Horrors of Old Night as effectively as they did if they were merely psychotic savages. They'd still need organisation, coordination and discipline in addition to their gene-bred physical prowess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3947366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fury_of_Fenris Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I imagine after the Unification wars there'd be a huge pool of highly trained and experience soldiers/commanders. I imagine that some of the emperors trusted soldiers had a hand in mentoring and training the first of their kind. There's also no doubt in my mind that during that time some of the soldiers could have been as good or rivaled the astartes in combat prowess And once the legions were ready they simply adsorbed and took over all aspects of training themselves Much like how in today's world many western special force groups offer training and support to emerging nations forces Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3947473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 @Leif Bearclaw- You're probably right. My limited knowledge on Thunder Warriors makes me percieve them as ogryn sized world eaters, which probably is not correct. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3947663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROBOcaster Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I would guess that it was the Custodes. They are a standing military strength that could spare some members to train the Astartes. This trains the trainers? Who trained the Custodes? Who trained the Thunder Warriors? Who trained the Emperor? Who trained Malcador? A combined group of US Army Rangers, SF and probably a Paratrooper or two, frozen in cryo-sleep until they were once again needed to teach the meaning of the word "destruction" to the universe once more. I am a firm believer that the Emperor was reincarnated from a trooper out of the 82nd Airborne Division, only a member of the Eighty Deuce could instill such discipline, and zeal into an entire species. And look at how the Astartes perform exactly like an LGOP does, no higher command just out there ripping through the foes of the Imperium of Man, always following their highest order to destroy the enemies of man. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3947707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 Actually, scientifically the egg came first. Normal humans trained the primarchs, so why not marines? I still imagine at least one Custode over seeing the whole process though, similar to the spartan 3 analogy. In fact that analogy is perfect considering astartes, like spartan 3s were the mass produced version of spartan 2/custodes. I loved Hyanidaes story with the first astartes being trained by a Thunder warrior, but I don't think TWs would make practical teachers... I mean I'm completely OT here, but doesn't the egg require an enzyme that occurs only in the chicken? Not to mention needing a rooster for the other half? See I don't see custodes as trainers of Astartes as they have completely different methods of speciality. It would be like training the marine corps with secret service agents. I don't see the TWs used either because they are just too uncontrollably violent. I don't remember, but does Arrik Tyranis train any of the human thugs under his control? I thought he was more of a brutal warlord. Maybe humans would be the best trainers but would quickly phase out as they couldn't tell/show the astartes how to use their upgraded senses. I guess all the technical stuff would come from unaugmented humans and the rest would need to be learned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3947869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Actually, scientifically the egg came first. Normal humans trained the primarchs, so why not marines? I still imagine at least one Custode over seeing the whole process though, similar to the spartan 3 analogy. In fact that analogy is perfect considering astartes, like spartan 3s were the mass produced version of spartan 2/custodes. I loved Hyanidaes story with the first astartes being trained by a Thunder warrior, but I don't think TWs would make practical teachers... I mean I'm completely OT here, but doesn't the egg require an enzyme that occurs only in the chicken? Not to mention needing a rooster for the other half? See I don't see custodes as trainers of Astartes as they have completely different methods of speciality. It would be like training the marine corps with secret service agents. I don't see the TWs used either because they are just too uncontrollably violent. I don't remember, but does Arrik Tyranis train any of the human thugs under his control? I thought he was more of a brutal warlord. Maybe humans would be the best trainers but would quickly phase out as they couldn't tell/show the astartes how to use their upgraded senses. I guess all the technical stuff would come from unaugmented humans and the rest would need to be learned. In terms of the OT part, I guess historically the egg was around wayyyy before the chicken even evolved... And in terms of Custodes, in FH it makes a point of showing how different the Custodes fight to the Astartes, I don't think the Custodes trained them either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3947880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I'd envision that human agents of the emperor who were great warriors would have been given the honor to conduct the initial training of the 1st legion. If it's good enough for most of the Primarches I could see it working for the first astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3947921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I mean I'm completely OT here, but doesn't the egg require an enzyme that occurs only in the chicken? Not to mention needing a rooster for the other half? The mutation of the DNA that resulted in the first chicken could have been either internal (endogenic), or externally (exogenic) influenced. The endogenic mutations are effectively an error (whether beneficial or negative) in the copying of that. The egg (oocyte) is not a complete cell, so does not contain the full DNA of the resultant chicken - it's only when it's combined with a sperm that one is created - and that as this initial "first cell" could conceivably be considered the first chicken, and that it takes about a day to produce the egg (as we consider the shelled bit we like to eat) from the point of conception, technically, the chicken came first. If you define the point of hatching to be the start of the chicken, then obviously the egg came first. However, if you also consider the existence of the yolk to be the start of the eggs existence, then the egg came first, it was just waiting for a fertilized oocyte. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3948059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 This talk of mutant chickens smells like chaos to me. Burn them all. At about 180 degrees for a few hours, with some herbs. On topic, I can see them being trained like any other regiment, then pushed to the limit to see what they can do with their training and develope it further. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3948075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 11, 2015 Author Share Posted February 11, 2015 This talk of mutant chickens smells like chaos to me. Burn them all. At about 180 degrees for a few hours, with some herbs. On topic, I can see them being trained like any other regiment, then pushed to the limit to see what they can do with their training and develope it further. Lol the chicken discussion was just a comparison for training astartes. So far we've seen only astartes train other astartes (Primarchs aren't astartes so don't count :P) so the conundrum is "who trained the first astartes? Since there weren't ones before to train them." You can't have the egg without the chicken, but you can't have the chicken without being an egg first. What happened first? Maybe the 1st legion was partially trained by the emps. I mean, their gene seed was incredibly stable and I can imagine the first astartes being "mastercrafted" (lol) instead of the mass production that happens by the time of the XXth legion. Maybe the emps oversaw the first training sessions. I do think however, that it seems pretty logical that normal humans would have had to train them by and large. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3948116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I don't think the Thunder Warriors conducted the training. The Thunder Warriors were mentally unstable brutes prone to violent insanity and physiological failure, they were probably even worse than Word Eaters on Nails Astartes were designed to be intelligent and disciplined, they controlled their aggression. The TW were controlled by their aggression. I don't think the Emperor would want the nascent Astartes to be influenced by the TW. My personal theory on why the Emperor disapproved Angron's handling of his legion is that the Emperor viewed the XIIth's course of development as a regression back to the bestial brutishness of the TW. The Emperor wanted tactically astute, highly disciplined soldiers, not berserk savages Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303301-who-trained-the-first-astartes-no-really/page/2/#findComment-3948334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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