Strengths of the Ultramarines

[Frostmourne]

Hello Boys and Girls, this is more of a preliminary Thread, before i launch my WiP thread when i actually receive my FW tomorrow. 

In Premise, i would like to have "Factions/ Warbands/ Cells/ Fighting Forces/ Companies/ Detachments" Whatever you may call them, pieced together in my collection from across the fronts in which Ultramarines are fighting during the Heresy. 

My problem is, that my HH book knowledge is rusty, and i dont have my books to hand for the next 3 weeks. 

So im thinking if i give you guys a rough idea of what i would like to represent, you can tell me the force strengths, typical armaments, known assets, etc etc. 

So first of all, i would like a Force led by Ventanus, so maybe a Calth Survivors Underground Force? Something like that?

Armatura Defence too, led by some Senior Figures, but this is mainly to include some Solar Auxiliar which i will use as Armatura Academy Guard or some such PDF. 

Macragge forces with the Primarch himself. I know this was probably really well armed and varied, so i dont need so much on that, but maybe an example of Noted assets or characters? Like Thiel for example. 

Then any mention of any associated Mechanicum tendrils?

So in essence i want to have 1 Main force, led from Macragge, 1 small force led from Calth, 1 small force led from Armatura with whatever allies i can muster. 

Something like that?

I will also be creating my own Hero, of my own Fluff. As some of you know i am taking part in a 6 month long Campaign in my local Meta group, and as i am using 30k rules the fluff is that as the Ruinstorm exploded into the Ultima Sector, this whole force was in the Warp headed to Muster at Calth but was waylaid.

This force then turns up in 40k and after being brought up to speed, fights along side the Imperium

I dont like that i HAVE to invent this rubbishy fluff to fit in with the Campaign, BUUUTT if it means i can use 30k rules and models without people kicking off, i am happy :D

Any thoughts boys, or any "This is really Ultramarines, do this" would be great. Thanks.  

[Nakuth]

So im thinking if i give you guys a rough idea of what i would like to represent, you can tell me the force strengths, typical armaments, known assets, etc etc. 

 

So first of all, i would like a Force led by Ventanus, so maybe a Calth Survivors Underground Force? Something like that?

 

Armatura Defence too, led by some Senior Figures, but this is mainly to include some Solar Auxiliar which i will use as Armatura Academy Guard or some such PDF. 

 

Macragge forces with the Primarch himself. I know this was probably really well armed and varied, so i dont need so much on that, but maybe an example of Noted assets or characters? Like Thiel for example. 

 

Then any mention of any associated Mechanicum tendrils?

 

So in essence i want to have 1 Main force, led from Macragge, 1 small force led from Calth, 1 small force led from Armatura with whatever allies i can muster. 

 

Something like that?

 

 

 

About to finish my lunch break, so a quick thought: You could have a Mechanicum force deployed out of Konor. It is one of the 500 worlds, and is a Forge World, if I recall.

[DimDim]

 

 

 

Hello Boys and Girls, this is more of a preliminary Thread, before i launch my WiP thread when i actually receive my FW tomorrow.

 

Any thoughts boys, or any "This is really Ultramarines, do this" would be great. Thanks.  

 

I dont know if you have ordered any breachers with your order, but ive always seen them resembling the tall roman scutum shields really well, effectively allowing you to make a roman legionary themed group. But breachers arent the best points spend if youre trying for a super good list. i just imagine a line of ultras with shields locked is all :)

[jeremy1391]

Their strengths; numbers, big recruiting populace, great supply system, regimented discipline.

 

Weaknesses; use the "how to marine for dummies" manual and early in the heresy don't really do the out of the box thing, arrogance, hubris.

[depthcharge12]

I think their weakness might be a good at everything, but perfect at nothing sort of way.

[Fire Golem]

Their strengths; numbers, big recruiting populace, great supply system, regimented discipline.

Weaknesses; use the "how to marine for dummies" manual and early in the heresy don't really do the out of the box thing, arrogance, hubris.

They don't use the Codex Astartes during the heresy, Guilliman is still writing it. Also, the Codex definitely isn't necessarily a downside, and I'm pretty sure Guilliman didn't write it to be adhered to super rigidly, it's meant as guidelines for many different war situations, and it's very good for what it is. It's like the 'Art of War' for the far future. They are fairly arrogant though, not in a 'were the best' way, but more a 'our way is the only right way'. So they're quite inflexible in terms of unconventional methods of waging war. Like Depthcharge says, there's probably a bit of 'jack of all trades, master of none' going on.

 

Strengths; their discipline, huge legion size, Guilliman, although inflexible, is a damn good tactician, good at assessing situations (theoretical and practical, I loved that in KNF), they have mastered the logistics side to war, very very well supplied, and just generally pretty good at everything.

[Frostmourne]

Ok so that's pretty cool to start.

 

20 man squads, units to deal with each scenario

 

Maybe fearing squads kt deal with an array of things rather than one thing. Or make sure across my army there is a balance of anti infantry or tank.

 

Konor is the forgeworld? So there should be some mechanicus assets out of that :)

[Reyner]

My Ultramarines are going to be mostly Veteran Squads for my Calth survivors - depending on the legion rules and Rite of War of course I have a Praetor ready to build and have a few standard guys built up too. I also have my banner bearer ready (the honour guard guy) I just need to modify the banner a bit.

[Frostmourne]

What are you gearing your praetor with?

[Legatus]

They are fairly arrogant though, not in a 'were the best' way, but more a 'our way is the only right way'. So they're quite inflexible in terms of unconventional methods of waging war.

(...)

Guilliman, although inflexible,

 

 

That's why they adopted siege techniques from the Iron Warriors and stuff like that. And that's how Guilliman was able to in his first official command on Macragge successfully pacify the marading tribes which no other Commander had managed to do up to that day. Also, up is down and cats and dogs love each other.

[m_r_parker]

If your HH history is rusty, then it might be worthwhile waiting for Book 5 to come out - at the Weekender it was commented that this book would go into the background of the Legion (as per the other books), and would give details about the Ultramar region, how the Legion managed to grow to such a large size (>250,000 active Astartes), and why the Emperor decided to leave the 500 worlds as a mini-empire / principality rather than fold them in fully to the Imperium...

 

The book will also give you access to the Imperial Militia list, which corresponds nicely to your PDF fighting force, and Book 6 will go nicely if you're planning something more along the lines of the Underground war on Calth.

 

As for their Legion strengths, and how they would influence a force from a gaming perspective:

• Large Legion strength - these guys would be fielding full size squads most of the time, because they can. Whilst it's fitting for their legion, it's also really good on a gaming basis because it's more points effective to have a single large unit than 2 small ones, with the Unit-Tax that comes as standard.
• I would play it that any options to take an additional close combat weapon should be taken. The background already lends itself to Gladius blades being taken and used for honour duels, and fits well with the determination to be ready for all circumstances (arming Tactical squads with CCWs in case your opponent manages to get into close combat)
• For any Consul type characters I would try to go with Champions, for me it seems fitting with the martial pride of the Legion and their honour dueling

 

Ultimately - anything goes, and this is for just about all legions really. With such a large Legion, if you wanted to go with a particular force then there's no real reason why you couldn't.

 

From a weakness perspective (or a restriction perspective), I would limit the amount of Destroyer units that you take. The 'nobility' associated with the Legion and their Primarch doesn't lend itself well with Rad warfare, unlike other legions like the Death Guard. I would also try and avoid any tactics or units / characters that might play against the 'noble' image of the legion (Moritats, for instance)

[jeremy1391]

 

Their strengths; numbers, big recruiting populace, great supply system, regimented discipline.

Weaknesses; use the "how to marine for dummies" manual and early in the heresy don't really do the out of the box thing, arrogance, hubris.

They don't use the Codex Astartes during the heresy, Guilliman is still writing it. Also, the Codex definitely isn't necessarily a downside, and I'm pretty sure Guilliman didn't write it to be adhered to super rigidly, it's meant as guidelines for many different war situations, and it's very good for what it is. It's like the 'Art of War' for the far future. They are fairly arrogant though, not in a 'were the best' way, but more a 'our way is the only right way'. So they're quite inflexible in terms of unconventional methods of waging war. Like Depthcharge says, there's probably a bit of 'jack of all trades, master of none' going on.

 

Strengths; their discipline, huge legion size, Guilliman, although inflexible, is a damn good tactician, good at assessing situations (theoretical and practical, I loved that in KNF), they have mastered the logistics side to war, very very well supplied, and just generally pretty good at everything.

Rob had already started disseminating tenets of his codex to his legion in the form of their combat doctrine which was very straight up and down this is how we fight sort of way. They viewed the alpha legion and Raven guards way of war a cowardly.

[Fire Golem]

 

 

Their strengths; numbers, big recruiting populace, great supply system, regimented discipline.

Weaknesses; use the "how to marine for dummies" manual and early in the heresy don't really do the out of the box thing, arrogance, hubris.

They don't use the Codex Astartes during the heresy, Guilliman is still writing it. Also, the Codex definitely isn't necessarily a downside, and I'm pretty sure Guilliman didn't write it to be adhered to super rigidly, it's meant as guidelines for many different war situations, and it's very good for what it is. It's like the 'Art of War' for the far future. They are fairly arrogant though, not in a 'were the best' way, but more a 'our way is the only right way'. So they're quite inflexible in terms of unconventional methods of waging war. Like Depthcharge says, there's probably a bit of 'jack of all trades, master of none' going on.

Strengths; their discipline, huge legion size, Guilliman, although inflexible, is a damn good tactician, good at assessing situations (theoretical and practical, I loved that in KNF), they have mastered the logistics side to war, very very well supplied, and just generally pretty good at everything.

Rob had already started disseminating tenets of his codex to his legion in the form of their combat doctrine which was very straight up and down this is how we fight sort of way. They viewed the alpha legion and Raven guards way of war a cowardly.

Yeah, but apart from being a bit inflexible, as I said, the Codex Astartes is generally a pretty good guide, following the codex isn't neccesarily a weakness. And the UM did go against it if they were required to by the situation, they didn't adhere to it as rigidly as people assume.

[blackoption]

 

 

Their strengths; numbers, big recruiting populace, great supply system, regimented discipline.

Weaknesses; use the "how to marine for dummies" manual and early in the heresy don't really do the out of the box thing, arrogance, hubris.

They don't use the Codex Astartes during the heresy, Guilliman is still writing it. Also, the Codex definitely isn't necessarily a downside, and I'm pretty sure Guilliman didn't write it to be adhered to super rigidly, it's meant as guidelines for many different war situations, and it's very good for what it is. It's like the 'Art of War' for the far future. They are fairly arrogant though, not in a 'were the best' way, but more a 'our way is the only right way'. So they're quite inflexible in terms of unconventional methods of waging war. Like Depthcharge says, there's probably a bit of 'jack of all trades, master of none' going on.

 

Strengths; their discipline, huge legion size, Guilliman, although inflexible, is a damn good tactician, good at assessing situations (theoretical and practical, I loved that in KNF), they have mastered the logistics side to war, very very well supplied, and just generally pretty good at everything.

Rob had already started disseminating tenets of his codex to his legion in the form of their combat doctrine which was very straight up and down this is how we fight sort of way. They viewed the alpha legion and Raven guards way of war a cowardly.

 

 

 

That is not true.  In fact, Guilliman learned several lessons from Corrax and his Raven Guard (including the use of Mortariats).  Also, he never called the Alpha Legion's method of fighting cowardly, but inefficient and wasteful.  The Ultramarines are about effectiveness and efficiently. He saw hubris in Alpharius's method of war because after Alpharius declared he didn't want things to be "too easy."  He was critical of Perturbo because he decimated (wasted) veteran marines solely because they were not the premier legion of the Imperium.  He criticized Angron because his forces were too indiscriminate.   Guilliman and the Ultramarines are the professional soldiers of the legion astartes. 

[Reyner]

What are you gearing your praetor with?

No idea at the minute, I got the Praetor set when I bought Sevetar for my fiancee so I have a terminator with charger and blade or a non terminator with archeotech and sword. Plus a load of bits lol so I can build them in any config really. 

[Slips]

I think a Paragon Blade is a no-brain option; every generic Preator takes one due to the lack of widespread EW on other Equivalent HQs. Unless your facing Salamanders. But even then, Ap2 at initiative is pretty much always worth it.

 

Edit: Also, a Paragon Blade is not Necessarily a Sword; the only caveat being that it has a Blade. So if you wanted you could model a Xenos weapon (not Necron, Ork, Tau or Tyranid though) as the Paragon Blade. Meaning it can be a: Sword, Axe, Spear, Halberd, Pole Axe, etc.

 

And even in Power Armor a Preator can be a TEQ because of coming stock with Artificer and being the only HQ capable of buying an Iron Halo (4++) vs the Refractor Field (5++) all Consuls get.

 

Beyond the CC weapon you can gear him up as much or as little as you want which boils down to "How many Points are you willing to pump into a rather one-dimensional beatstick HQ?"

[jeremy1391]

 

 

 

 

Their strengths; numbers, big recruiting populace, great supply system, regimented discipline.

Weaknesses; use the "how to marine for dummies" manual and early in the heresy don't really do the out of the box thing, arrogance, hubris.

They don't use the Codex Astartes during the heresy, Guilliman is still writing it. Also, the Codex definitely isn't necessarily a downside, and I'm pretty sure Guilliman didn't write it to be adhered to super rigidly, it's meant as guidelines for many different war situations, and it's very good for what it is. It's like the 'Art of War' for the far future. They are fairly arrogant though, not in a 'were the best' way, but more a 'our way is the only right way'. So they're quite inflexible in terms of unconventional methods of waging war. Like Depthcharge says, there's probably a bit of 'jack of all trades, master of none' going on.

 

Strengths; their discipline, huge legion size, Guilliman, although inflexible, is a damn good tactician, good at assessing situations (theoretical and practical, I loved that in KNF), they have mastered the logistics side to war, very very well supplied, and just generally pretty good at everything.

Rob had already started disseminating tenets of his codex to his legion in the form of their combat doctrine which was very straight up and down this is how we fight sort of way. They viewed the alpha legion and Raven guards way of war a cowardly.

 

That is not true. In fact, Guilliman learned several lessons from Corrax and his Raven Guard (including the use of Mortariats). Also, he never called the Alpha Legion's method of fighting cowardly, but inefficient and wasteful. The Ultramarines are about effectiveness and efficiently. He saw hubris in Alpharius's method of war because after Alpharius declared he didn't want things to be "too easy." He was critical of Perturbo because he decimated (wasted) veteran marines solely because they were not the premier legion of the Imperium. He criticized Angron because his forces were too indiscriminate. Guilliman and the Ultramarines are the professional soldiers of the legion astartes.

I was mistaken in regards to Corax (had to research mixed up some fluff)... I think it was dorn who didn't approve of Corax, however Rob looked down on all but a few of his brothers.

 

I can see a jack of all trades approach to the ultramarines, they were rigid in their way of prosecuting war and everything had to be "just so" which puts some people off from the Ultramarines.

I can see Roboute being a buffer primarch who grants many bonuses to his army when deployed.

[Frostmourne]

Wow lads. Quality responses. And Mr Parker thanks a lot for the info.

 

I am definitely thinking Praetor, Champion, then maybe that new Consul for Mechanicum models too.

 

Large Tac squads and some vets in there too with plenty of support from armour and breachers.

 

Also the militia list should be awesome!!

[Emperor's Furor]

I'm thinking of starting my force off with a Delegatus using the Mk III commander model but with the legion champion crested helm, then having breacher squads as my line troops but I'm going to put them off till the rules come out to see what's what. My force is going use Solar Auxilia and probably militia to, already have one Solar Auxilia lasrifle section. Thinking of basing the company around the Patriarchs of Ulixis with Ulixis being one of the 500 worlds (perhaps desert like).

[Relict]

I have a handful of models that I plan on incorporating into my future UM force already. 

 

- Legion Praetor in Mark III Armor 

- Legion Centurion & Standard Bearer in Mark IV Armor

- Legion Champion in Mark III Armor

- Legion Master of Signal in Mark IV Armor

 

I think the Praetor will be the overall commander of my force. The Centurion, Standard Bearer, and Master of Signal will be "demoted" to become the sergeant, vexilla bearer, and vox operator of a tactical squad (mark IV armor). The Champion will likewise be fielded as a sergeant of a tactical squad (mark III armor). 

 

I definitely want a heavy infantry theme for my force. This would be consistent with the UM's Roman influences (Roman Legions were the best heavy infantry troops of their day, they used auxiliaries for more specialized roles such as cavalry). Most of the Legionaries will probably be equipped with mark III armor (since it parallels the lorica segmentata armor that Roman Legionaries wore). 

 

HQ: Praetor, Moritat

Elites: Terminators (possibly the UM's unique Terminator formation instead of a generic one), Destroyers, Contemptor Dreadnoughts, Rapiers

Troops: 2X Tactical Squads, 1X Breacher Squad (possibly the UM's unique Breacher formation instead of the generic one), 1X Tactical Support Squad

Heavy Support: Deredeo Dreadnought, Heavy Support Squad (missile launchers or plasma cannons), Basilisks 

 

Very much a defensively-oriented force to counter the 3500-points of WE that I already own so I can reenact certain battles of the Shadow Crusade. Ambitious? Yes. Doable? Definitely. I have already done it once for my WE. :D

[b1soul]

 

 

Guilliman, although inflexible, is a damn good tactician

 

I don't think Guilliman as written by Dan is "inflexible". 

 

I think the old Index Astartes makes him out to be more inflexible. I don't think Dan Abnett's Guilliman would be averse to unconventional warfare. Guilliman would object to Alpha Legion-style shenanigans as a waste of time (being elaborate for the sake of being elaborate). His objection is actually rational. 

 

Is Alpharius inflexible because he refuses to fight like Guilliman? 

[Fire Golem]

 

Guilliman, although inflexible, is a damn good tactician

 

 

I don't think Guilliman as written by Dan is "inflexible". 

 

I think the old Index Astartes makes him out to be more inflexible. I don't think Dan Abnett's Guilliman would be averse to unconventional warfare. Guilliman would object to Alpha Legion-style shenanigans as a waste of time (being elaborate for the sake of being elaborate). His objection is actually rational. 

 

Is Alpharius inflexible because he refuses to fight like Guilliman?

I guess. Maybe straightforward is a better word than inflexible? And I agree that he probably wouldn't be adverse to unconventional methods if they were needed. Good points.

[Praefectus Invictus]

 

 

Guilliman, although inflexible, is a damn good tactician

 

I don't think Guilliman as written by Dan is "inflexible". 

 

I think the old Index Astartes makes him out to be more inflexible. I don't think Dan Abnett's Guilliman would be averse to unconventional warfare. Guilliman would object to Alpha Legion-style shenanigans as a waste of time (being elaborate for the sake of being elaborate). His objection is actually rational. 

 

Is Alpharius inflexible because he refuses to fight like Guilliman?

I guess. Maybe straightforward is a better word than inflexible? And I agree that he probably wouldn't be adverse to unconventional methods if they were needed. Good points.

 

Guilliman is definitely flexible. Why would he have an entire room dedicated to strange and unconventional weapons if he was not flexible? He is straightforward in his method of war, but he can flex and bend to any situation, using all the resources at his disposal. Read Know No Fear if you still have doubts.

[Fire Golem]

I have read it yeah. I did just say I used the wrong word ;)

[b1soul]

 

I guess. Maybe straightforward is a better word than inflexible? And I agree that he probably wouldn't be adverse to unconventional methods if they were needed. Good points.

 

 

I would go so far as to say that he values efficiency, not straightforwardness...but sometimes a straightforward plan is the most efficient one because you outclass your opponent (during the GC, the legions often outclass non-Imperial human splinter empires) 

 

"Straightforward" connotes predictability and I don't think Guilliman wants to be predictable. Whether he is predictable is open to debate. The old Index Astartes fluff states that he is...but Dan Abnett's Guilliman may not follow the old IA's concept of the primarch.

 

This isn't to say that the a legion like the AL is inefficient...though there is some evidence supporting the claim that the AL's stratagems are sometimes deliberately convoluted to the point of being unnecessary.

 

What I'm saying is that Guilliman must have his own concept of efficiency and even though he strives for efficiency, sometimes even he might fall short of his ideal.

 

After all, didn't Perturabo beat Guilliman at a war game? Once Guilliman picked up the tactic, he kept winning...but in real war, there are rarely second chances unlike in a war game