Augustus Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 B1, wasnt that Corax who beat Guillimen (twice) but he adapted (Borg!) and never lost to him again. Unless it also applies to Pert. Corax was able to turn depleted squads into fighting forces again. Something Guillimen didn't figure possible (gross simplification) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3948635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I think it was Corax actually. Isn't that where the idea of the Moritats came about? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3948641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I think Corax beat him three times before Guilliman adapted? Or maybe it was on the third try that he finally beat Corax. Either way, he learns quickly and that is not to be underestimated. Basically the only way to stay ahead of the Ultras tactically is to keep coming up with new stuff on the fly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3948653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy1391 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 It was Corax, he beat Rob three times and after that Guiliman had it figured out and didn't lose to Corax again. Mind you this is pre Istvaan and I'm sure Corax learned a new thing or two about unconventional warfare after that I mean him and the survivors were being chased around by all the traitor legions who were present. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3948656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Guilliman is flexible enough to adapt his tactics. Corax bested him 3(i think it was 3) times using unconventional tactics, but from them on couldnt best him war games as Guilliman had adapted to the Raven Lords tactics. For me he is Roman personified. He can be beaten, once or twice, but he will make you pay for those victories, then he will adapt his force, change them do they don't only counter the enemy, they take the fight to the enemy. His legion isnt the best fighters, or brilliant infiltrators, or unwaivering in endurance. They excell at all these areas, and are weak in none. For me he will be a middle tier fighter but should have good buffs to his legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3948667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 "Straightforward" connotes predictability and I don't think Guilliman wants to be predictable. Whether he is predictable is open to debate. The old Index Astartes fluff states that he is...but Dan Abnett's Guilliman may not follow the old IA's concept of the primarch. The Alpha Legion Index Astartes described the Codex doctrines as inflexible. It also stated that the Ultramarines Legion and the Alpha Legion had the same amount of resources, that the Ultramarines didn't know how to cope in mountainous terrain (that's just where their monastery is located, and where Guilliman's had his first successful campaign...), and that the Codex would require one to play directly into the enemy's hands. It was a particularly poorly written article, whose author never before had written nor would subsequently be writing anything else for GW, and which should have pitted the Alpha Legion against the Imperial Fists (who would have met all those criteria erroneously ascribed to the Ultramarines in that article, and who had been described as feuding with the Alpha Legion in earlier sources). Presumably the article was written with the Imperial Fists in mind, but they then replaced the Imperial Fists with the Ultramarines because the Imperial Fists already had been given a serious feud with the Iron Warriors. Other sources (such as the Imperial Fists Index Astartes article, incidentally) describe the Codex doctrine as quite flexible, adaptable, and promoting a commanders initiative. In 1st to 3rd Edition descriptions of the basic traits of the different Chapters, the Ultramarines have generally been described as the Chapter with little bells and whistles, but as the most flexible and diverse, since most other featured Chapters generally specialise in one particular way of fighting. "On the whole the Ultramarines represent a well prepared force true to the tactical precepts of flexibility and mutual support encoded in the Codex Astartes. Some Chapters offer more special troops and unusual combinations of weaponry, but few rival the Ultramarines' flexibility." - 2nd Edition Epic, 1991, 'Armies of the Imperium', p. 8 [The Imperial Fists Legion before the adoption of the Codex doctrines] "Initially, the Imperial Fists were an inflexible formation; each Company had an identical organisation and Company Commanders tended to be unimaginative. Overall planning was excellent, however, and this, coupled with the unshakeable determination of the individual Fists, made them an excellent assault formation against static defenses." [The Imperial Fists Chapter after the adoption of the Codex doctrines] "After the carnage of the Iron Cage, what remained was a hardened, veteran force fully able to embrace the concepts of the Codex Astartes. Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react." - 3rd Edition Index Astartes Imperial Fists, 'Index Astartes Volume II', p. 17 "Ever striving, ever eager to assimilate new skills and hone their craft, [the Emperor's Children Legion] were all that was best in the Legiones Astartes. While others made a way of war their own, and applied it like an iron stamp to all situations, the Emperor's Children never held to a single mode of warfare. Their victories show a more diverse application of strategy and tactics than any of their brother Legions, save perhaps the Ultramarines." - 'The Horus Heresy - Book 1: Betrayal', p. 114 Compare that to how it was (mis-) represented in the Alpha Legion Index Astartes article: "Guilliman believed in rigid structure and hierarchy and had a firm battle doctrine from which his Legion never wavered. (...) this was anathema to Alpharius's belief in initiative and adaptability (...)" - Index Astartes Alpha Legion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3948669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyner Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 If you listen to Strategem it goes into the Codex a bit more. He adapts what Aonid (spelling?) Thiel has written all over his armour fighting on Calth and how he has organised all the red marked Ultramarines into 40k style Companies, then Guilliman sees the benefit of using many smaller forces instead of divisions then says he is going to destroy all he has written and redo it based on Thiels research. So people can stop blaming Guilliman for the Legions being rebuilt into Chapters and blame Thiel! That is a really simplified breakdown of Strategem which was a pretty decent audio and worth a listen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3948725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komrk Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 If you listen to Strategem it goes into the Codex a bit more. He adapts what Aonid (spelling?) Thiel has written all over his armour fighting on Calth and how he has organised all the red marked Ultramarines into 40k style Companies, then Guilliman sees the benefit of using many smaller forces instead of divisions then says he is going to destroy all he has written and redo it based on Thiels research. So people can stop blaming Guilliman for the Legions being rebuilt into Chapters and blame Thiel! That is a really simplified breakdown of Strategem which was a pretty decent audio and worth a listen. It's not like breaking into chapters was a bad idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3948732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyner Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 If you listen to Strategem it goes into the Codex a bit more. He adapts what Aonid (spelling?) Thiel has written all over his armour fighting on Calth and how he has organised all the red marked Ultramarines into 40k style Companies, then Guilliman sees the benefit of using many smaller forces instead of divisions then says he is going to destroy all he has written and redo it based on Thiels research. So people can stop blaming Guilliman for the Legions being rebuilt into Chapters and blame Thiel! That is a really simplified breakdown of Strategem which was a pretty decent audio and worth a listen. It's not like breaking into chapters was a bad idea. Never said it was :P some people rip him for it though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3948736 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 If you listen to Strategem it goes into the Codex a bit more. He adapts what Aonid (spelling?) Thiel has written all over his armour fighting on Calth and how he has organised all the red marked Ultramarines into 40k style Companies, then Guilliman sees the benefit of using many smaller forces instead of divisions then says he is going to destroy all he has written and redo it based on Thiels research. So people can stop blaming Guilliman for the Legions being rebuilt into Chapters and blame Thiel! That is a really simplified breakdown of Strategem which was a pretty decent audio and worth a listen. It's not like breaking into chapters was a bad idea. ....Depends on your point of view. If I could have a 100000 Marine Strong Legion in 40k with all the Stuff that comes along with it, I'd prefer that over having to deal with 100 different chapters of 1000 marines. The Battle for Macragge would have been VERY different if it was the Ultramarines LEGION vs Leviathan instead of the Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3948739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Eh, you only really have five Chapters in 40K. But there is the option to play a more obscure one, or to even make up your own, which would not be possible if it was still the same original 9 Legions. Also, if the Space Marine forces of the Imperium had consisted to 9 huge Legions each sitting in one place, then the Imperium would have been broken apart bit by bit and would not have lasted till this day (in 999.M41). Plus, if Lufgt Huron had been a Legion commander, the Imperium would have been completely screwed, (if it had even made it that far). But in turn, nothing stops 40 Chapters from banding together and go on a merry crusade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3948758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 The Battle for Macragge would have been VERY different if it was the Ultramarines LEGION vs Leviathan instead of the Chapter. Especially as that battle hasn't happened. It was Behemoth that hit Macragge. (Sorry, my pedantry wouldn't let it go ) Eh, you only really have five Chapters in 40K. But there is the option to play a more obscure one, or to even make up your own, which would not be possible if it was still the same original 9 Legions. Also, if the Space Marine forces of the Imperium had consisted to 9 huge Legions each sitting in one place, then the Imperium would have been broken apart bit by bit and would not have lasted till this day (in 999.M41). Plus, if Lufgt Huron had been a Legion commander, the Imperium would have been completely screwed, (if it had even made it that far). But in turn, nothing stops 40 Chapters from banding together and go on a merry crusade. Eh, neither is really all that optimal tbh. Persoanlly I prefer Legions because they are less afflicted by the endemic 40k scaling problem of not understanding the numbers involved in war (although FW are better at this than GW). I don't care how super the Astartes are, 100 Marines in a Company as the standard deployment to a planetary warzone is just too small to have the theatre altering effect the fluff states. The Codex Chapters are really only good for special operations, not head on engagements like they're too often involved with. They're built like the SAS, but the fluff treats them like the USMC. Chapters should be at least 10 times larger than they are, if not more. Of course I'd have also made the Legions millions strong rather than 100,000s in the first place. So for the post Heresy period, I'd have preferred to see the Legions split (assuming that was necessary) into fewer, larger formations, still capable of stand up, front-line engagements like their Legion predecessors, but no longer able to conquer entire sectors unsupported. As for Huron as a legion commander; I guess that depends on how you view his fall. If you subscribe to the viewpoint that he was bad to the core from the outset, then yes, bad things would happen. However, if you subscribe to the more nuanced interpretation, that is was a brilliant, if prideful, commander, asked to do the impossible with his limited resources, and treated his duty to defend the Maelstrom Zone as more important than an arbitrary dictate of the High Lords, only to fall when his hubris was uncovered and he was forced into a corner, then there wouldn't have been a problem if he'd commanded a Legion. Under those conditions he'd have the military force to achieve the mission of the Warders without descending into Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3948867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 The Battle for Macragge would have been VERY different if it was the Ultramarines LEGION vs Leviathan instead of the Chapter. Especially as that battle hasn't happened. It was Behemoth that hit Macragge. (Sorry, my pedantry wouldn't let it go ) HAHAHAH I always appreciate being corrected! Dont worry! Also, shows how much I care about the UM and 'Nids >_> Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3948870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I'm trying to figure out the Ultramarine organisation as their company and chapter numbers and ranks seem to be all over the place to me. According to Sedition's Gate Lucretius Corvo (Founder of Novamarines) was a Captain of the 90th Company of the Ninth Chapter, but he had overall control of 600 men on Astagar. I'm looking at the organisation of the legions in HH:Betrayal and it breaks it down as Chapter - Battalion - Company and a Battalion is comprised of around 500 men + specialists. That would mean Corvo, a Captain was in charge of a Battalion, is that right? Wouldn't someone of higher rank be in charge of such a large number of men? or is a Captain effectively a Praetor? I would of thought Legate would be more suitable if he is indeed in charge of a Battalion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3949079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakuth Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I guess he's just a more senior captain than others in that force. Know No Fear (iirc) gives examples of multiple captains being present within the same company, with a senior captain in overall command. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3949088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I'm trying to figure out the Ultramarine organisation as their company and chapter numbers and ranks seem to be all over the place to me. According to Sedition's Gate Lucretius Corvo (Founder of Novamarines) was a Captain of the 90th Company of the Ninth Chapter, but he had overall control of 600 men on Astagar. I'm looking at the organisation of the legions in HH:Betrayal and it breaks it down as Chapter - Battalion - Company and a Battalion is comprised of around 500 men + specialists. That would mean Corvo, a Captain was in charge of a Battalion, is that right? Wouldn't someone of higher rank be in charge of such a large number of men? or is a Captain effectively a Praetor? I would of thought Legate would be more suitable if he is indeed in charge of a Battalion. You're probably never going to get a straight answer here, even when Tempest drops, every Legion's Compnay/Chapter/R$ank system appears to be all over the place. Even FW have a bad habit of not seeming to remember what they've written about the Legion's organisation. To my knowledge so far we've had 'the Sons of Horus didn't really use organisational levels higher than the Company', followed by 'here's a member of the SoH Rukal Breacher Battalion', the World Eaters call their Chapters Echelons in Betrayal, but then have WE Marines in Massacre listed as 'So-and So, X Company, Y Chapter', same with the Emperor's Children and their Millennials becoming Chapters again in Massacre, and again with the Imperial Fists, the text of their section talks about 'Regiments', but then the picture annotations puts the Marines in Chapters. And that's before you get to Know No Fear (apparently) disagreeing with Betrayal on how large a Chapter is, with KNF saying an Ultramarine Chapter was 10,000 strong (iirc, going on 2nd hand info here), whereas the basic Legion organisation in Betrayal lists a Chapter as normally 2, 500 man Battalions. While this isn't 100% irreconcilable yet, if any Legion was going to still follow the Terran pattern, I'd expect it to be the XIII. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3949099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 With regards to the Armatura section of the force, in Betrayer there is a moment in the battle where the UM form up using breacher squads in a very Roman Legionesqu formation. The forces are led by Captain Orpheo, who is an awesome swordsman who fights using a power sword (I'd use a paragon blade) and a gladius held in the main gauche position in his offhand. Could be a fluffy theme to steal maybe? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3949104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Guilliman is flexible enough to adapt his tactics. Corax bested him 3(i think it was 3) times using unconventional tactics, but from them on couldnt best him war games as Guilliman had adapted to the Raven Lords tactics. For me he is Roman personified. He can be beaten, once or twice, but he will make you pay for those victories, then he will adapt his force, change them do they don't only counter the enemy, they take the fight to the enemy. His legion isnt the best fighters, or brilliant infiltrators, or unwaivering in endurance. They excell at all these areas, and are weak in none. For me he will be a middle tier fighter but should have good buffs to his legion. Very much so. The Roman legions were powerful formations, to be sure, but they were generalists (heavy infantry units - they relied upon auxiliary troops to provide things like archers and cavalrymen) and they were far from unbeatable. The Roman Republic's war against Carthage proved as much, same with the utter destruction of three legions by Germanic "barbarians." However, the Romans could afford to replace whatever they had lost whereas their enemies could not. Moreover, they adapted their tactics and strategies so that they were rarely beaten twice by the same foe. For me, Our Spiritual Liege should be a decent mid-tier fighter among the Primarchs (the man held his own against Angron and Lorgar, after all) but a superior, if not supreme organizer. If having him in my army means I get to make two UM elite units troop choices, I will be a very happy man. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3949137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackoption Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I'm trying to figure out the Ultramarine organisation as their company and chapter numbers and ranks seem to be all over the place to me. According to Sedition's Gate Lucretius Corvo (Founder of Novamarines) was a Captain of the 90th Company of the Ninth Chapter, but he had overall control of 600 men on Astagar. I'm looking at the organisation of the legions in HH:Betrayal and it breaks it down as Chapter - Battalion - Company and a Battalion is comprised of around 500 men + specialists. That would mean Corvo, a Captain was in charge of a Battalion, is that right? Wouldn't someone of higher rank be in charge of such a large number of men? or is a Captain effectively a Praetor? I would of thought Legate would be more suitable if he is indeed in charge of a Battalion. My thoughts are (at least until tempest is published) is based on the following. Ultramarine Companies consist of 1000s marines (at full strength) and are lead by a senior captain. But captains serve in the Ultramarine companies themselves. Chapters are made of up companies. My thought is that the Ultramarine company level is their "battalion" formation based on the numbers. Therefore, I am guessing the captains underneath the senior captain lead Centuries as their 'company' based unit. Chapter>>>>> Lead by a Chapter Master (I.E. Marius Gage) Praetor Company>>> Lead by a Senior Captain (I.E. Corvo or Ventris) a Praetor Century>>>> Lead by a Captain/Lt (I.E. the CPT who dueled with the 12/13 painted eldar) A Centurion Squad>>>> Lead by a Sergeant (I.E. Anto Thiel) Just my two cents Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3949333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitnam Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Once Guilliman picked up the tactic, he kept winning...but in real war, there are rarely second chances unlike in a war game I wouldn't say that's really true from the standpoint of command. Many wars in history have had one side suffer early devastating defeats but adapt later on and win the war. The Romans after Cannae is probably the best example of this. From a perspective closer to the actual battlefield, yeah this is probably true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3949449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 That isn't a second chance though. That's "you got your butt whooped and you learned from it." In war games, a second chance is "you got your butt whooped, but you can change that the next time you replay this battle." It's like ranke online play vs casual. In casual, it doesn't matter how many times you win or lose. You always have a second chance. In ranked, your wins and losses are permanent. They will always be there and you will never have a second chance to win those losses. And no matter how many wins you get to offset those losses, they will always affect your win/loss ratio. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3949454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 But it doesn't matter if you lose a battle as long as you win the war. Losing is just part of the journey to victory. Look at Pyrrhus campaign against the Romans. he won almost every battle but didn't come close to defeating the Romans overall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3949471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 That isn't a second chance though. That's "you got your butt whooped and you learned from it." In war games, a second chance is "you got your butt whooped, but you can change that the next time you replay this battle." It's like ranke online play vs casual. In casual, it doesn't matter how many times you win or lose. You always have a second chance. In ranked, your wins and losses are permanent. They will always be there and you will never have a second chance to win those losses. And no matter how many wins you get to offset those losses, they will always affect your win/loss ratio. Gotta worry about my K/D brah. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3949674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 That isn't a second chance though. That's "you got your butt whooped and you learned from it." In war games, a second chance is "you got your butt whooped, but you can change that the next time you replay this battle." It could mean that in an inter-legion war, the RG would destroy the UM before the UM adapt ...OR it could mean that in the RG would win a few initial victories before the UM adapt and turn the tables Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3949695 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Well they were friendly war games, no simulation can ever match real war, real passion, real heroics. Anyway the XIII and the XIX are good buds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303322-strengths-of-the-ultramarines/page/2/#findComment-3949700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.