Forge fiend: A discussion and Analysis

[maverike_prime]

Okay, so I'm doing a bit of a theoretical deep dive and examination of several of the "worthless" or 'not usable' units in the Chaos Space Marine Codex. In this post I'm going to post my take and analysis of the unit in question, and then I'd like feed on the unit and my analysis. Now keep in mind I avoid tournaments like a combination of a clingy X-girl friend combined with the black plague I try to play friendly games while not being super-competitive. I do want to win, but if I win by being a dick then I haven't won anything. That being said tournaments in this area have an absolute stranglehold so I can't avoid the effect of tournaments (IE the highly competitive atmosphere and the min-maxing list building approach). So it's a bit like doing recreational boxing against Muhammad Ali. Even if he's got both legs and arm tied behind his back and his eye covered, he still knocks you all around the ring and then looks at you with this look that says "Why aren't you trying?" Because of this, I have little opportunity to discuss unit tactics and strengths, or effective usage of different units in the army. Thus that is why I'm doing this series. Taking an in depth look at the various units in the Codex, and working to build a better understanding of them as a unit, and as part of an army.

You can check out the other units I've done this with here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/20bbdf56fcac5db05fbf839cf057f0b5.gifKhorne Berzerkers

http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/a/16cdc5b15cd9c49d4f9f321aaff2ff96.gifThousand Sons

This time I would like to take an indeapth look at a new comer to the Chaos Space Marine Codex, the Forgefiend!

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a316/maverike_prime/Forgefiend00_zps9a8351ee.png

Okay so first glance:

We get a 175 point walker that is WS/BS 3, S6, and 12-12-10 armor. It comes pre-loaded with a pair of Hades Autocannons and has a rather impressive list of special rules.

Daemonic Possession means it gets to ignore shaken and stunned results on a 2+. Okay, nice. So it's very unlikely it'll be unable to shoot for a turn while it shakes off a head ache.

It does count a daemon so it gets a 5++ save. Eh okay. Not great, but not bad. And it causes fear. Which... yeah. It causes fear. So... yeah. Against space marines of any type (except for non-cult Chaos marines ) is pointless. And... well it's fear. Which really only matters when it's in an assault. I'll come back to this point later.

It has fleet. Which... um... it gets to re-roll a dice when it runs.

It has It Will not Die. Okay, certainly a plus. it gets to re-grow lost hull points. Well it gets to try anyway. It is on a 5+ which... well okay. it's a 1 in 3 chance. Not great, but not bad either.

it Also has a rule new to the Chaos resume known as Daemonforge. Short version is once per game during the shooting phase it gets to re-roll it's failed to wounds. Okay, nice bonus. But at the end of that phase it rolls a D6 and on a 1 it looses a hull point with no saves. Eh... okay. I guess.

So, okay. Right out of the gate for 175 points we get a mobile platform that can put out 8 S4 shots at 36". uh.... for comparison sake let's look at the Space Marine Dreadnought. For 120 points you get a walker that can put out 4 S7 ap4 shots, that are Twin-linked, at 48" at BS4. Okay so a difference of 55 points. The Dreadnought is putting half as many shots at one lower strength. However it hits on a 3+ as opposed to a 4+ so it'll hit more often. And it's shots are twin-linked, so it has a chance to try and hit a second time. Given the choice, I would take the Dreadnought with 2xTwin linked Auto-cannons over a Forge Fiend. It can be argued that the greater volume of shots put out by a Forgefiend gives it great anti-air fire power, however for 100 points, I can take a defense line with a Quad-autocannon battery, and man it with a squad of Marines with BS4. or if I really want to take care of anti-air defense I can put a Warpsmith on the quad-cannon and get BS5 with twin-linking.

Now the Forge Fiend does have other things to its name. The it Will Not Die is a nice extra. But as I already said, it's a 1 in 3 chance of regrowing a lost hull point. So.. yeah. Like I said, not great but not bad. Don't feel it worth the 55 point difference compared to a dreadnought though. The Daemonforge special rule... eh. This is kind of a hard way to talk about. On the one hand, I get to re-roll any failed to wound rolls. So I can pretty much guarantee all of my hits are going to wound. But I'm still only BS3 meaning if I roll below average I may wind up not making any hits making the re-roll to wounds pointless.

As for being a daemon... well it does get a 5++ which is nice. But it causes fear when it's in an assault. Why would I have this in an assault? I mean yeah if it get's charged there's a chance that I can scare it's attackers away. Well so long as it's attackers aren't Grey Knights. Or Blood Angles. Or Black Templar. Or iron Hands. or Imperial Fists. Or Salamders. or Clan Ruakan. Or Sentinels of Terra. Or Space Wolves. Or Dark Angles. Or Ultramarines. Or Guardsman with Priests. Or... well basically any imperial army there is. or tyranids with in synapse range. or... well you get the idea.

And likewise it gets fleet. Which... okay. it gets to re-roll a dice when determining run distance. Well... this is a shooting platform... all it's really intended to do is shoot. So... why would I be running it? I mean... okay. Maybe I would need to run in order to reposition the model, but honestly given the size of the model and the range of the guns, if I'm in a position where I need to reposition the model badly enough that I have to sacrifice a shooting phase... I dun screwed up.

As far as options go... eh. The Forgefiend is rather lacking. It can replace it's Hades autocannons with Ectoplasma cannons and it may take a seperate Ectoplasma cannon. Now the Ectoplasma cannon is a nice mid-range problem killer weapon, with it's S8 and AP2 stats. It'll take care of pesky 2+ saves and it'll do a number against multi-wound models. Anything that is T4 or less is going to feel the burn. And being able to take 3 of them, okay that's nice. Putting down 3 blasts that are AP2... yeah. It's nice. But... it's on a BS3 platform. a BS3 platform that is more geared toward assault then it is shooting. And for those 3 shots, it's going to cost a rather painful 200 points.

So... Yeah. Conclusion: The ForgeFiend is either over-priced for what it can do, or its priced for the rules it has, that are largely useless for what it winds up doing on the battlefield. Daemon... eh. It's like 55% useful. The causes fear is largely pointless, but the 5++ is okay. Not great, but nothing really jaw dropping. The Fleet... yeah. That just seems like it's hold over form an earlier stage of development. Like the original idea was that Maulerfiends and ForgeFiend were intended to be specific upgrades from a general "Daemon Engine" that could be taken in squadrons maybe. Daemonforge... eh. It's either either going to be wasted, or pants darkeningly good. I really don't see it going anywhere in between those two points. If the ForgeFiend were reduced in points to about 140 I think it would be be more useful in an army. Also, if it had the ability to be taken in squadrons. Just imagine a group of 3 ForgeFiends laying waste to... well... whatever the hell they feel like laying waste to. It's like where does an 800 pound gorilla sleep? Where ever it wants to. What do 3 Forge Fiend shoot at? Whatever the hell they want to.

So thoughts from anyone else? What makes the Forge Fiend good? What makes it bad?

[Warsmith Aznable]

The fiend is like a lot of CSM units: more cool for the model than reliable on the table. It's got the "go big or go home" thing going for it that our signature units trend toward as well. An Ectofiend bringing three AP2 blast templates will solve a lot of problems, but there are a lot of ways it can go wrong, too.

 

Conventional wisdom says run two to halve incoming threats, and that's what I have always done in the past. Conventional wisdom also says AV12 is not good enough to tank through an enemy dedicated to the idea of destroying that unit, regardless of additional USRs. The Daemon USR at least means it's not tied to covering terrain like most other shooty units, though.

 

40k in general seems to reward aggressive play, and CSM is one of those armies that doubles down on that idea. The fiend is one of those units that could potentially win a game by itself if everything goes exactly right. The high threat level something like a triple Ectofiend represents means it's going to earn a lot of early attention, though.

[Excessus]

Ectofiend is cool and all, but cost 200p and is still only av12. It also helps the enemy a lot with killing itself with get's got! A pack of oblits does it's job better.

[tdemayo]

Personally, I love the Forgefiend.  I often take two of them. I run them with just the stardard autocannons.  Eight strength eight shots, even at BS3, is a good volume of hull-point stripping firepower.  They have enough shots to threaten fliers (albeit not very reliably).  They can move and shoot better than a tank, and they can even assault light units.  The 5+ invulnerable save, IWND, and the one-shot reroll are nice little extra bonuses.  I had one actually bounce an Ironclad for two turns of combat in my last game -- long enough for Khârn to arrive and kill the dread. Forgefiends are a bit overcosted, but by no means useless.

 

I think its better to compare theh Forgefeind to a Predator than a Dreadnaught.  The tri-las predator fulfills a very similar role.  The Predator costs a bit less, and has more armor on the front  The lascannons are better at popping vehicles, but have a lower volume of fire. The Forgefiend is more mobile, has better side armor, puts out a greater number of shots, and is less vulnerable in combat.

[Strazhakov]

Compared to the Dorito Dread by FW the Forgefiend seems kinda overpriced (duh) but I still like it because I'm a fan of the model and a huge proponent of Plasma spam. 

 

I proxied a list with a Plasma Mayhem Pack, 3 Ectofiends and Draznicht's Plasma Chosen with a Balestar Sorc. Blew my friends Dark Angels out of the Water a couple times. Risky but a lot of fun. I love the thrill of "Gets Hot" and I love Ap2 Blasts even more. No unusual that a an Ectofiend earns his pts in a single shooting phase, wrecking a Termi unit or obliterating a Sternguard squad.

 

Would be an all-star unit if it were 25 pts cheaper.

 

Edit:

 

Still don't know how the Soulgrinder has AV13. It's not even a vehicle :cuss, just a naked deamon mounted upon some crab legs. *Defiler cries in a corner"

[Smurfalypse]

I play competitvely fairly often and honestly I rarely end up in games like you suggest. Ironically I find that casual players going to events to be the biggiest cry babies of the bunch, but this is about Forgefiends, not competitive players being WAAC and causal players being cry babies. . .

 

As to the poor Forgefiend. I take him in my casual games with friends and such, it does bad even in those. It is the all too common double whammy of the CSM Codex, needing both its rules adjusted and its points cost reduced significantly. Dreads are considered to be pretty poor in most scenarios and in almost all envionments (causal and competitive) and costs half as much as a FF with a mouth upgrade and on top of that is basically just as tough as a Dread behind a tree.

 

I have played with a pair of these over a dozen times now and have yet to have them do anything for me except pretend to be good at shooting :P

It sucks, cause it is an awesome concept but just poor poor execution by the Devs.

[incinerator950]

Our entire codex minus half a dozen units was a poor execution.

[Smurfalypse]

Our entire codex minus half a dozen units was a poor execution.

 

Some good ideas though. The Daemon Engines were a great concept.

If we could take Forgefiends in squadrons I would toy around with them in a bigger unit and buffing them. Prescience/Forwarning and stuff like that would make a group of two or three of those pretty deadly. Especially if the buffs are coming from our Daemon allies, then we can pile on Cursed Earth for a 3++.

[incinerator950]

I refuse to wishlist for dlc formations and ally spam to even be viable.

[Sheesh Mode]

I find the forgefiend is an insufficient firebase despite the power of its autocannons. A squad of three Rapier platforms with Hades Autocannons is about twenty points more than the forgefiend and not as mobile, but it offers more firepower with greater accuracy and is arguably more durable thanks to T7 and multiple-models/wounds. Sure, the forgefiend has IWND and a 5++, but those benefits are largely negligible, if not unnecessary. A well-placed rapier squad can sit in ruins and cover two objectives with impunity, then move out a few inches further if someone is putting the effort in to stay beyond their range. 

 

Meanwhile forgefiends struggle to make half their shots. 

 

Edit: Here is another example: The Chaos Relic Sicaran. 

 

For the same price as a forgefiend you can field an Av13/12/12, Fast tank with a 6 shot, twin-linked, rending autocannon that ignores jink and two lascannon sponsons. So for a model that fires the same amount of shots at greater range, and to better effect - while also capable of moving faster when necessary - you pay the same number of points. 

 

The idea of the forgefiend as a durable weapons platform mounting powerful autocannons is great, but as has been repeated across the internet the fiend is far too expensive for its points. Furthermore, it's ballistics skill is far too low for it to really shine without some psychic support or a Mysterious Objective like a targeting relay. Thus, the Forge Fiend is not an effective buy. 

[Zeratil]

I find the forgefiend is an insufficient firebase despite the power of its autocannons. A squad of three Rapier platforms with Hades Autocannons is about twenty points more than the forgefiend and not as mobile, but it offers more firepower with greater accuracy and is arguably more durable thanks to T7 and multiple-models/wounds. Sure, the forgefiend has IWND and a 5++, but those benefits are largely negligible, if not unnecessary. A well-placed rapier squad can sit in ruins and cover two objectives with impunity, then move out a few inches further if someone is putting the effort in to stay beyond their range. 

 

Meanwhile forgefiends struggle to make half their shots. 

 

Edit: Here is another example: The Chaos Relic Sicaran. 

 

For the same price as a forgefiend you can field an Av13/12/12, Fast tank with a 6 shot, twin-linked, rending autocannon that ignores jink and two lascannon sponsons. So for a model that fires the same amount of shots at greater range, and to better effect - while also capable of moving faster when necessary - you pay the same number of points. 

 

The idea of the forgefiend as a durable weapons platform mounting powerful autocannons is great, but as has been repeated across the internet the fiend is far too expensive for its points. Furthermore, it's ballistics skill is far too low for it to really shine without some psychic support or a Mysterious Objective like a targeting relay. Thus, the Forge Fiend is not an effective buy. 

 

 

Yeah, the forge fiend in particular really loses out to the excellent choices in IA13. If you want to stay in codex it needs some way to get twin linked, it's an amazing target for divinition and I have used it this was a few times to great success, especially against flyers as re-rolls to hit and re-rolls to pen and 8 shots has a good chance of putting serious hurt on things.

[Xenith]

Hades Autocannons could be heavy 8, and as the fiend has two, make them twin linked.

 

Paired Ectoplasmas could be heavy 3 blast, twin linked, to stop the thing from killing itself. The head makes the weapon heavy 4.

[Excessus]

Hades Autocannons could be heavy 8, and as the fiend has two, make them twin linked.

 

Paired Ectoplasmas could be heavy 3 blast, twin linked, to stop the thing from killing itself. The head makes the weapon heavy 4.

That would make the rapier platforms waaaayy too overpowered!!! The platform itself(the fiend) needs to be improved...

[Nehekhare]

I think we need an ongoing list of units which work alright that models out of the CSM range can be counted as:

 

Forgefiend: Mortis Contemptor Dreadnought, Deredeo Dreadnought, ...?

[Sheesh Mode]

The forgefiend just needs to be able to re-roll ones. 

[Xenith]

 

Hades Autocannons could be heavy 8, and as the fiend has two, make them twin linked.

 

Paired Ectoplasmas could be heavy 3 blast, twin linked, to stop the thing from killing itself. The head makes the weapon heavy 4.

That would make the rapier platforms waaaayy too overpowered!!! The platform itself(the fiend) needs to be improved...

 

 

Well, the forge fiend came first. The rapiers need to be adjusted upward. They also don't get the twin linked, so an ectoplasma rapier will probably kill itself over the course of a game.

 

I guess the fiend could be improved by making it a monstrous creature?

[Sheesh Mode]

An ectoplasm rapier has two wounds and a 3+ save, it'll be fine. 

[the jeske]

Man the fiends were nice durning testing where they were able to take marks. But anyway.

 

They be demons so cursed earth has some synergy with them, they cost less then 2 dreads with AC[and aren't crazy]. The BS3 sucks, but that can be said about a lot of things chaos has. Back in the day when rhinos/razors were a thing they weren't totaly meh[well if one somehow didn't want to run oblits].

[Sheesh Mode]

Man the fiends were nice durning testing where they were able to take marks. But anyway.

 

Testing? Marks? Please, elaborate. 

[Kythnos]

 

Man the fiends were nice durning testing where they were able to take marks. But anyway.

 

Testing? Marks? Please, elaborate. 

 

 

I second this request :)

[bozo69pd]

Actually yeah, that sounds pretty F***ing sweet them daemon marks. Hell you can say that about any vehicle in our army. If any of our vehicles that take daemonic possession then got the ability to take a daemonic mark that would be so great. Stick a few tzeentch forgefiend's or defilers on cursed earth thats a pretty good chance to make some saves. Khorne Maulerfiends. Give heldrake a mark of nurgle then go ahead and jink it when its getting focused hard. Wow that would fix alot of CSM's problems. 

[Spacefrisian]

Loss of accuracy when a daemon comes to make you more powerfull still seems odd to me, If that would be removed the pricetag would be more worth it.

 

Also a big fan of marked vehicles, but thats a flavor GW hasnt added in the last 2 Chaos incarnations (at least those at FW tried).

 

Minor note: 8 s4 shots? i think you mean 8 s8 shots., its not the best thing but its still better than 8 s4 shots.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

I really want to get one or 2 for my slaanesh army. I often compare them to havocs

[the jeske]

 

Man the fiends were nice durning testing where they were able to take marks. But anyway.

 

Testing? Marks? Please, elaborate. 

 

Back when the codex was in being writen , for a time vehicles could take marks. The option was removed.

[Sheesh Mode]

Do you have any examples of what those marks could do?