White Scars: Mark IV or Mark III Armor?

[Rommel44]

Hey mates, looking to get my White Scars started, however since FW is super expensive, I would like to try and plan things out before I start buying things at a whim. Basically besides Outrider Bikes, I planned on getting some Tac Squads in Rhions to run in ZM and regular 30k/40k games, but I am still debating on which guys I should get. Like the MKIII Armot for the Knightly look, however many say that the MKIV armor would be better, as that way I can fill in the Chest Plat with a color otherthen just white. Anyways, what are your thoughts on this?

 

Thanks

[LongGone]

From a purely aesthetic standpoint, Mk IV and Tartaros termies go better with just about all the fast attack models. It's design also looks a little sleeker/faster than Mk III, if that makes any sense at all...

[Athrawes]

Honestly though, while i'm sure that the legion had a few pieces of Mk IV armor, in the novels about them, they are constantly described as a nightmare to resupply since they kept moving forward. And since Horus was already funneling as much Mk IV armor as he could to the traitor legions before the heresy broke out, to me that makes it seem like the Scars would be one of the legions comprised mostly of Mk II power armor, maybe with a bit of Mk III throne in for good measure.

 

Any ways, that was the fluffy argument.

[LongGone]

There's a White Scars plog somewheres around here with mixed armor marks on all the Marines. Pretty schmexy, but a little hard on the wallet.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

From the ones you can get a clear view of in the official artwork, it looks like mostly MkII with MkIII helms.

 

http://i.imgur.com/IzrXBWW.png

 

http://i.imgur.com/gHlkjiN.jpg

[Daemon2027]

How about a mixture of the two marks?

[Fire Golem]

You can go with whatever you prefer the look of, or a mix, or whatever. I've only built 10 SoH marines so far but they were a mix of II, IV and V. Technically from a lore standpoint the loyalists weren't as well supplied with MkIV as the traitors were but I imagine everybody had some if that was what you preferred.

[zedmeister]

My Scars are mostly going to be Mk II with a bit of Mk IV and the odd Mk III. 

 

I doubt they'd make heavy use of Mk III as it is usually described as the heaviest and slowest of the armours (Clanking suits one story described them as). Mk II, whilst being a little archaic even by then, would probably be favoured as it offers the most flexibility, agility and speed. Mk IV would be represented but probably under-supplied as, as mentioned above, they tend to be difficult to resupply.

[Castiel]

Despite mk iv being sleeker I've always pictured them in ii/iii due to the resupply issues. Pick whichever you like best though as they would have had some of both

[Marshal Reinhard]

I would suggest you do MKIV's.

 

They do seem lighter/sleeker, and in addition to that they are the armor mark that is used as the riders/crew of most FW Fast attack choices (outrider bikes, jetbikes, javelin attack speeders...)

 

That said if you have an itch for another armor mark as well, there's nothing stopping you from having a sqaud or even just part of a squad of them too.

[Theredknight]

I am just listening to scars now actually, there are some mentions of the honour guard in mk3, and the legion was pretty much isolated from the main crusade for the majority of the time.

 

It would make sense to conclude that they would predominately be in older marks of armour (until terra and mk7 'Aquila' was issued to all loyalists) due to their re supply situation.

The Terran woman has a nightmare trying to organise their assets, due to them being 'nomadic'

But obviously whatever you prefer at the end of the day!!

[Atia]

I would use both MK II and IV. If you want to use MK III, use it only on breachers (although you could use reinforced MK IV here too) or other "heavier" units. If you want to do a "Siege of Terra - force" you could use all marks from II to VII (and your army would still be a HH army)

[DuskRaider]

I would see White Scars as mainly donning Mk. II... in their fluff, it says they are mainly at the outskirts of the Imperium, thus mostly isolated from the rest of the Imperium at large. When the Heresy breaks out, most Legions had very little in the way of Mk. IV, save those who had sided with Horus (and even then I could see some shirking the armor, like Death Guard and Iron Warriors). I'd do perhaps characters or Captains in Mk. IV, most of the rank and file in Mk. II, and maybe units like Heavy Support or Breachers in Mk. III...

[Castiel]

I just remembered that there are two sets of most of the armour mks - the Legion Mk  sets which are more highly decorated and the Mk... Armour sets which are plain eg http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine-Infantry-and-Accessories/MK_III_IRON_ARMOUR.html

 

So if  you want Mk 3 armour with space for freehand painting you could always buy those.

[Leif Bearclaw]

It would make sense to conclude that they would predominately be in older marks of armour (until terra and mk7 'Aquila' was issued to all loyalists) due to their re supply situation.

 

Not trying to pick on you in particular here, but where does this 'Mk VII Armour at Terra' come from? I always thought that MK VII was developed in the Scouring at the earliest, as the Heresy era wasn't a time for much new tech development (plus the whole, actually having an Armour mark called 'Heresy Pattern' two marks before VII). The only info I've seen about armour at the Siege comes from Badab Vol 2, where it is stated that Mk VI Corvus is heavily associated with the defence of the Palace. Which also makes sense as it was the most recent armour mark at the Heresy's outbreak, and really the Imperium had better uses for its resources during the greatest war in its history than even more armour R&D.

 

To continue my somewhat off topic ranting about armour, I don't really like the 'Mark IV was really new when the Heresy broke out and therefore the Traitors got most of it' thing. Partly because it seems to leave many Legion essentially only with Mk II (the issues with the weight of III making it unsuitable for a number of roles), and partly because it results in a massive back loading of armour marks. So the Crusade is undertaken, and the legions are outfitted in MK II 'Crusade' armour, OK that's fine, then an undermined time later this armour is 'improved' and made heavier to form Mk III Iron. Then a couple of centuries into the Crusade, in the space of about 2 years (between the fall on Davin and Istvaan V), Mark IV is introduced, with corrupt Horus sending the Lion's share to his allies, the Mk V designation is assigned to various custom jobs/combo armours, forcing the even newer Corvus Armour to be reclassified Mk VI. Then potentially another new mark of armour is developed between Istvaan and Terra, despite the galaxy wide civil war and substantial elements of the Imperial Industrial/research base, including Mars itself, siding with the traitors. So in about a decade, most of which was taken up by a massive civil war, we get 3/4 new armour marks, whereas the previous two centuries only produced one (Mk II apparently pre dates the crusade leaving Sol, so only Mk III was created during the Crusade, but before things started going to pot). Does this series of events sound mental to anyone else?

[Relict]

I'd say a mixture of Mark II and Mark III for line infantry units and small quantities of Mark IV for vehicle crews and elite formations. Tartaros Terminators would be a good choice as well. 

 

Perhaps sprinkle in some Mark V parts so thing look suitably ad hoc? As mentioned before, the WS supply lines are chaotic but effective. I can see the Legion making repairs in the field that may not look pretty but work well. 

[Theredknight]

 

 

It would make sense to conclude that they would predominately be in older marks of armour (until terra and mk7 'Aquila' was issued to all loyalists) due to their re supply situation.

 

Not trying to pick on you in particular here, but where does this 'Mk VII Armour at Terra' come from? I always thought that MK VII was developed in the Scouring at the earliest, as the Heresy era wasn't a time for much new tech development (plus the whole, actually having an Armour mark called 'Heresy Pattern' two marks before VII). The only info I've seen about armour at the Siege comes from Badab Vol 2, where it is stated that Mk VI Corvus is heavily associated with the defence of the Palace. Which also makes sense as it was the most recent armour mark at the Heresy's outbreak, and really the Imperium had better uses for its resources during the greatest war in its history than even more armour R&D.

 

To continue my somewhat off topic ranting about armour, I don't really like the 'Mark IV was really new when the Heresy broke out and therefore the Traitors got most of it' thing. Partly because it seems to leave many Legion essentially only with Mk II (the issues with the weight of III making it unsuitable for a number of roles), and partly because it results in a massive back loading of armour marks. So the Crusade is undertaken, and the legions are outfitted in MK II 'Crusade' armour, OK that's fine, then an undermined time later this armour is 'improved' and made heavier to form Mk III Iron. Then a couple of centuries into the Crusade, in the space of about 2 years (between the fall on Davin and Istvaan V), Mark IV is introduced, with corrupt Horus sending the Lion's share to his allies, the Mk V designation is assigned to various custom jobs/combo armours, forcing the even newer Corvus Armour to be reclassified Mk VI. Then potentially another new mark of armour is developed between Istvaan and Terra, despite the galaxy wide civil war and substantial elements of the Imperial Industrial/research base, including Mars itself, siding with the traitors. So in about a decade, most of which was taken up by a massive civil war, we get 3/4 new armour marks, whereas the previous two centuries only produced one (Mk II apparently pre dates the crusade leaving Sol, so only Mk III was created during the Crusade, but before things started going to pot). Does this series of events sound mental to anyone else?

Ok, so I will try to go through.

 

Finding fixed 'evidence' for a fictional galaxy is hard, I don't own many books from early 90s so what I go off are the different web sources of info. Which are in turn from bl releases which I also have read.

 

I see it as this.

Before davin mk4 had been released, albeit not completely replaced older marks armour. The process was occurring.

After davin, and as warmaster, Horus could re direct vital updates and shipments to legions he thought would be more willing to help him as time went by.

But still updating all legions.. He couldn't be seen to be taking favourites or know who would be with him. Except word bearers.

So there was plenty of mk4 out there for those in contact (scars were sporadically so a few ships may have updated suits) and some legions had more than others due to different reasons.(furious abyss)

 

Mk 5 was after istvaan a patch of different armours and re enforced armour to counteract incoming boltgun fire.

Ravens had discovered that traitors had upgraded their ammo to more ceramite piercing rounds so that's one reason why they were so easily massacred. (Deliverance lost) when the fist captain turned up, he announced that all this type is known as heresy armour, so it basically skips 5.

 

Sigismund went to mars to secure the 'new pattern armour' safely for the loyalists. This is what we now know as mk 6 Corvus armour (issued above) (mechanicum)

When he was loading the suits, he also took data and fabricae from mars, to continue on Luna/terra.

 

Armour smiths grew in skill so were able o make more advanced armour and improve upon older designs.

Mk6 had already been released to word bearers (furious abyss) so was prepared to be put into production.

The data taken was an unknown armour in progress. This would take time to produce on terra. It was designed to be interchangeable with mk4/5/6 armour parts. With more armour for cables etc.

As the heresy came to terra, as much of this armour that had been put into production was issued, most preferred their tried and tested armour I'm sure, but recruits would take it. All would have the Aquila on their chests.

This is why mk6 is associated with terra, sigismund still had some left, but the forged may as well church some out while dry. I disagree that the imperium had better things to do, having the edge on your opponent I a civil war is everything. Armouring your warriors in better suits and better weapons would be crucial!

 

This would then become the main surviving template for armour marks and be put into production for the future.

 

So that is why marks were quicker than the crusade. Also, adepts were discovering new act designs all the time. Armour was sufficient, as defects came back, improvements could be made etc. Indeed mk 4stc was discovered on another world the Auretian technocracy, but normal guys inside armour.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Let's keep this discussion calm, brothers.

[Theredknight]

I am sanguine ☺️ just filling in holes in someone's knowledge..which is power... and to be guarded well of course ☺️

[Slips]

I am sanguine ☺️ just filling in holes in someone's knowledge..which is power... and to be guarded well of course ☺️

might want to fix some spots in your post on power armor - you mention Mk 6 when I think you meant Mk 7 :p

[LongGone]

There's actually a passage in Mechanicum, where the head bubba's aide de camp brings an issue to his attention. That issue being that there was a problem with the supply chain, and that the only legions getting the newest marks of armor were those legions operating in direct support of the Warmaster.

 

Edit: Back on topic. Like I said earlier, Mk IV just screams fast, but mixed suits are probably the most ''correct'. However, that costs a pretty penny and you had mentioned wanting to keep some o' them pennies for yourself.

[Fire Golem]

Mixed suits doesn't cost any more than all MkIV... You just buy the same amount of armour but different Mks and mix them instead of building them straight.

[Theredknight]

 

 

I am sanguine ☺️ just filling in holes in someone's knowledge..which is power... and to be guarded well of course ☺️

might want to fix some spots in your post on power armor - you mention Mk 6 when I think you meant Mk 7 :p

Twas a late night post, which part?

[Leif Bearclaw]

I see it as this.

Before davin mk4 had been released, albeit not completely replaced older marks armour. The process was occurring.

After davin, and as warmaster, Horus could re direct vital updates and shipments to legions he thought would be more willing to help him as time went by.

But still updating all legions.. He couldn't be seen to be taking favourites or know who would be with him. Except word bearers.

So there was plenty of mk4 out there for those in contact (scars were sporadically so a few ships may have updated suits) and some legions had more than others due to different reasons.(furious abyss)

I'm sorry, but the idea of there being 'plenty' of Mk IV is contradicted by both the First Heretic and and FW books. TFH has the use of Mk IV by the Gal Vorbak being significant enough to repeatedly compare it favourably to older marks, while painting Tal and his men as special because they got the armour. While the FW books (probably Massacre, but can't be certain) list Mk IV along with Sicarans as the very latest toys that the Warmaster was hoarding for his closest allies. This just doesn't sound to me like Mk IV had been in service for a substantial period before Horus's fall, otherwise its presence in the Legions would not be noteworthy (and it wasn't in earlier HH books), as decades of supply would mean there would be plenty to go around.

A thought that just occurred, weren't the Scars at Ullanor? If Mk IV was indeed in service at that point, then that's a more than ample opportunity to supply the Legion with new armour, especially for the Triumph (everyone look their best and all that).

Mk 5 was after istvaan a patch of different armours and re enforced armour to counteract incoming boltgun fire.

Ravens had discovered that traitors had upgraded their ammo to more ceramite piercing rounds so that's one reason why they were so easily massacred. (Deliverance lost) when the fist captain turned up, he announced that all this type is known as heresy armour, so it basically skips 5.

This is basically contradicted by Extermination, which states Corvus Armour was developed as Mk V, but it took enough time to get working that a lot of Legion were using elements of armour combinations and bodge jobs. These in field jobs were dubbed Mark V, leaving Corvus (which the Raven had before Istvaan, so V being a post Istvaan patch doesn't add up) to be Mk VI.

I really should stop expecting consistency from this company .

This is why mk6 is associated with terra, sigismund still had some left, but the forged may as well church some out while dry. I disagree that the imperium had better things to do, having the edge on your opponent I a civil war is everything. Armouring your warriors in better suits and better weapons would be crucial!

But not as crucial as keeping them armoured. The original fluff for the Mk V (before Extermination changed it) reflects this, with Heresy armour being a less advanced model, made with inferior systems and cruder materials, to help overcome the logistical nightmare of keeping the Legions equipped during the Heresy.

Besides, I thought the Corvus stocks Sigismund recovered were given to Corax to help rebuild the RG? So it seems to me that for Corvus to be iconic with the Siege, Terra must have been producing Mk VI rather than Mk VII.

Plus, on a far more subjective level, I don't see the need for Mk VII to be involved in the Heresy, it has 10,000 years of Imperium to be dominant, let the more obscure Armours have their time to shine.

[Kol Saresk]

Mk 5 was after istvaan a patch of different armours and re enforced armour to counteract incoming boltgun fire.

Ravens had discovered that traitors had upgraded their ammo to more ceramite piercing rounds so that's one reason why they were so easily massacred. (Deliverance lost) when the fist captain turned up, he announced that all this type is known as heresy armour, so it basically skips 5.

This is basically contradicted by Extermination, which states Corvus Armour was developed as Mk V, but it took enough time to get working that a lot of Legion were using elements of armour combinations and bodge jobs. These in field jobs were dubbed Mark V, leaving Corvus (which the Raven had before Istvaan, so V being a post Istvaan patch doesn't add up) to be Mk VI.

I really should stop expecting consistency from this company .

This is why mk6 is associated with terra, sigismund still had some left, but the forged may as well church some out while dry. I disagree that the imperium had better things to do, having the edge on your opponent I a civil war is everything. Armouring your warriors in better suits and better weapons would be crucial!

But not as crucial as keeping them armoured. The original fluff for the Mk V (before Extermination changed it) reflects this, with Heresy armour being a less advanced model, made with inferior systems and cruder materials, to help overcome the logistical nightmare of keeping the Legions equipped during the Heresy.

Besides, I thought the Corvus stocks Sigismund recovered were given to Corax to help rebuild the RG? So it seems to me that for Corvus to be iconic with the Siege, Terra must have been producing Mk VI rather than Mk VII.

Plus, on a far more subjective level, I don't see the need for Mk VII to be involved in the Heresy, it has 10,000 years of Imperium to be dominant, let the more obscure Armours have their time to shine.

This is incorrect. Deliverance Lost(which is the source for all of Extermination's information on the matter), states that before the Heresy, the Mk VI was only in the testing phases. And that it was tested by the Raven Guard. Nothing was officially( key word) issued until the Imperial Fists took what they could from Mars. They then officially designated the completed suits of armor as the Mark VI and stated that all other unofficial Marks of armor(such as the Ultramarines' self-produced Praetor pattern; or the hodgepodge armor of the Istvaan Survivors) to be Mark V. Extermination repeats this.

The Corvus was designed to be Mk V, but because of the rushed nature of the Heresy and the fact that the Corvus armor was never officially designated before the Heresy, it was never made ito the Mk V. As such, the Mk VI did skip the Mk V phase while everything else that was not an officially designated pattern of armor was made into the Mk V.

Following this, Deliverance Lost also states that the Raven Guard only received what the Imperial Fists had confiscate up to the point the supply ship left with the captain stating that Sigismund was still on Mars confiscatong more material.

Going back to the older-than-BL-and-FW-material, this is stated as being Mk VI pattern armor(but no designs) and the designs for the Mk VII armor(but no suits).

As a result, the suits were dispersed amongst the Imperial Fists while they spent the rest of the war garrisoning and stockpiling Terra while also building/replicating anything they were able to from the confiscated material. This includes the production of the Mk VII armor, which would only be used(in the Heresy) by the Defenders at Terra.

It is one of the few things GW has left alone and that BL and FW have striven to keep it consistent.