White Scars: Mark IV or Mark III Armor?

[Marshal Reinhard]

I hope I'll be forgiven for asking a tangental question, but I can't help but ask, seeing as it's being brought up by this discussion. I see several mentions of armors confiscated by Sigismund. Not counting just here, I've heard it mentions that they were mark IV's, mark VI's and Mark VII's. Since my lore-fu is weak, I'm wondering if someone could clarify this a bit more. Is it different sources stating different things? Older sources vs newer? Different confiscating events? (I'm assuming it refers to his activities on Mars?) Or did he simply just find all the above?

 

Any insights would be welcome, as it is very relevant to the force I'm planning

[Kol Saresk]

At the time of the Martian Civil War(which is when Sigismund went to Mars), the Mechanicum was primarily producing Mk IV armor. Mk VI armor was somewhere during the final stages of production but had not yet reached distribution. Mk VII was still in the design phases and hadn't even reached prototype.

 

So when Sigismund came and seized whatever war material he could get his hands on, this would result in a massive portion of Mk IV armor, whatever Mk VI had been produced and the designs(but no actual suits) of the Mk VII. The Mk VII would instead be finished and enter full production during the garrisoning of Terra.

[apologist]

Convincing arguments can be made for either side; so ultimately, it's going to come down to personal decision. The choice you make can help demonstrate the theme of your army.

 

Were they close to the Khan, and thus favoured with the most up-to-date suits? Were they traditionalist and conservative, and therefore clung to their Crusade armour? 

 

Horus ensured a good supply of Mark IV (etc.) suits to those he believed loyal to him... and we know that Jaghati's loyalty was more doubtful (to Dorn and the Sigillite, at least). Perhaps the Warmaster ensured a few supply ships got to the Scars.

 

If Jaghati heard the Mark IV armour offered speed advantages over older suits, I have no doubt he'd have ensured his men got hold of it somehow. Equally likely, the Legion didn't hear – or didn't care – about developments in armour when there was still war to be waged; and thus the Scars marched in Mark II.

 

Alternatively, perhaps the White Scars operated in patchwork armour made up from components from different marks. It'd be a good way to represent the fact they get supplied intermittently, and simply use the new stuff to replace damaged parts from suits that otherwise remain perfectly useable. That seems to fit the nature of the White Scars: uncaring of extraneous detail as (say) the Iron Hands, while keeping their eyes focussed on the bigger picture of warfare for the sake of war.

 

Essentially; you're free to pick one – or many – options. Your army should represent you as a commander, and part of that is getting to know your men :)

[apologist]

I hope I'll be forgiven for asking a tangental question, but I can't help but ask, seeing as it's being brought up by this discussion. I see several mentions of armors confiscated by Sigismund. Not counting just here, I've heard it mentions that they were mark IV's, mark VI's and Mark VII's. Since my lore-fu is weak, I'm wondering if someone could clarify this a bit more. Is it different sources stating different things? Older sources vs newer? Different confiscating events? (I'm assuming it refers to his activities on Mars?) Or did he simply just find all the above?

 

Any insights would be welcome, as it is very relevant to the force I'm planning

 

The original info is taken from WD127, the formative 'Armour of the Space marines' article, which introduced the different armour marks and their histories. The timeline of armour supply at this point was fairly linear – Mark II during the early Crusade, with Mark III being used alongside it. By Mid-Crusade, Mark IV had mostly replaced Mk II.

 

Mark IV was hard to manufacture, and by late Crusade, the Adeptus Mechanicus (as it was in this period) was experimenting and refining the armour for the Astartes, resulting in Terminator armour and Mark VI. By the time of the Horus Heresy, Mark VI was starting to be issued to the Legions, with many of the Traitors getting hold of it.

 

Mark V was, in this article, a separate mark, an unfinished but easy to produce prototype which was pressed into service because the Horus Heresy made it hard to get the materials to create the sophisticated Mark VI. Mark VI was a refinement of Mark IV, with Mark V being an interim alternative which never saw widespread use. However, because there was so much destruction, Mark V was retro-actively pressed into service, and it was forever associated afterwards with the Traitor Legions.

 

So, in this background, the most modern armour used during the Heresy was Mark VII. In particular, the defenders of Terra were noted to have evacuated the latest suits – the new Mk VII Suits which were basically a refined version of Mark VI  – from Mars. However, Mark VII was never widely spread, even on Terra.

 

To conclude: the majority of loyalist Legionaries on Terra were mostly wearing Mark VI with temporary replacement parts (hence why the studded left arm became a mark of honour and associated with the heroism of the loyalists); while the traitors on Terra were wearing a mix of Mark VI and Mark V suits (hence why the Mark V suit is known as 'Heresy Armour' and is superstitiously associated with the traitor legions).

 

However, the article was never 100 per cent clear – probably because the background for the Horus Heresy itself was fairly nebulous, and the article was more concerned with the armour than the history. 

 

+++

The later Horus Heresy novels refined this slightly, with most Legions having most marks of armour at least in some number. Here, Mark II is used throughout the Crusade alongside Mark III, with some Legions preferring Mark IV and replacing it pretty much wholesale. By the start of the Heresy, most Legions were wearing Mark IV, with some still using older marks.

 

I believe (it's been a while since I read it) Mechanicum mentions that the Imperial Fists go to Mars during their civil war to claim the latest suits of armour and bring them to Terra. In this version of the background, these suits are Mark VI (not Mark VII).

 

Mark V is not really mentioned, and has been retconned into being any 'non-standard' suit: those patchwork sets made from scavenged parts (e.g. post-Isstvan), and various prototypes being tried by the Legions (e.g. Praetor pattern armour).

 

In this version of the background, most Legions fight the Horus Heresy in a mix of Marks II and IV. At this point in the series, Mark VI is limited to the Imperial Fists and the Raven Guard (who get a supply from the Imperial Fists). 

[Marshal Reinhard]

Thank you for the insights, Kol Saresk and Apologist

[Atia]

In this version of the background, most Legions fight the Horus Heresy in a mix of Marks II and IV. At this point in the series, Mark VI is limited to the Imperial Fists and the Raven Guard (who get a supply from the Imperial Fists).

don't forget the Alpha Legion they have their own sub-types of Mark VI

[Theredknight]

[Daemon2027]

I thought the mongols were good with logistics, one of the reasons they did so well.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Mk 5 was after istvaan a patch of different armours and re enforced armour to counteract incoming boltgun fire.

Ravens had discovered that traitors had upgraded their ammo to more ceramite piercing rounds so that's one reason why they were so easily massacred. (Deliverance lost) when the fist captain turned up, he announced that all this type is known as heresy armour, so it basically skips 5.

This is basically contradicted by Extermination, which states Corvus Armour was developed as Mk V, but it took enough time to get working that a lot of Legion were using elements of armour combinations and bodge jobs. These in field jobs were dubbed Mark V, leaving Corvus (which the Raven had before Istvaan, so V being a post Istvaan patch doesn't add up) to be Mk VI.

I really should stop expecting consistency from this company .

This is why mk6 is associated with terra, sigismund still had some left, but the forged may as well church some out while dry. I disagree that the imperium had better things to do, having the edge on your opponent I a civil war is everything. Armouring your warriors in better suits and better weapons would be crucial!

But not as crucial as keeping them armoured. The original fluff for the Mk V (before Extermination changed it) reflects this, with Heresy armour being a less advanced model, made with inferior systems and cruder materials, to help overcome the logistical nightmare of keeping the Legions equipped during the Heresy.

Besides, I thought the Corvus stocks Sigismund recovered were given to Corax to help rebuild the RG? So it seems to me that for Corvus to be iconic with the Siege, Terra must have been producing Mk VI rather than Mk VII.

Plus, on a far more subjective level, I don't see the need for Mk VII to be involved in the Heresy, it has 10,000 years of Imperium to be dominant, let the more obscure Armours have their time to shine.

This is incorrect. Deliverance Lost(which is the source for all of Extermination's information on the matter), states that before the Heresy, the Mk VI was only in the testing phases. And that it was tested by the Raven Guard. Nothing was officially( key word) issued until the Imperial Fists took what they could from Mars. They then officially designated the completed suits of armor as the Mark VI and stated that all other unofficial Marks of armor(such as the Ultramarines' self-produced Praetor pattern; or the hodgepodge armor of the Istvaan Survivors) to be Mark V. Extermination repeats this.

The Corvus was designed to be Mk V, but because of the rushed nature of the Heresy and the fact that the Corvus armor was never officially designated before the Heresy, it was never made ito the Mk V. As such, the Mk VI did skip the Mk V phase while everything else that was not an officially designated pattern of armor was made into the Mk V.

Following this, Deliverance Lost also states that the Raven Guard only received what the Imperial Fists had confiscate up to the point the supply ship left with the captain stating that Sigismund was still on Mars confiscatong more material.

Going back to the older-than-BL-and-FW-material, this is stated as being Mk VI pattern armor(but no designs) and the designs for the Mk VII armor(but no suits).

As a result, the suits were dispersed amongst the Imperial Fists while they spent the rest of the war garrisoning and stockpiling Terra while also building/replicating anything they were able to from the confiscated material. This includes the production of the Mk VII armor, which would only be used(in the Heresy) by the Defenders at Terra.

It is one of the few things GW has left alone and that BL and FW have striven to keep it consistent.

I'm sorry, but I don't really see much difference in what I posted and what you posted. The closest I'm getting is that I got the impression form Extermination that Mk V was established as a mark pre Istvaan, and therefore Corvus was moved to Mk VI, even though it wasn't in general issue yet, merely under trial with the XIX, whereas you appear to be saying that neither V or VI were designated as such until post Istvaan, when the RG got back to Terra.

Or I might be horribly misunderstanding what you're saying.

@ bearclaw.

You need to re check a lot of past books etc. You seem to have substantial gaps in your knowledge. Briefly I will explain:

Gal vorbak 'quest' I think was 30 years pre davin. So armour was new THEN.

Scars were at ullanor which was a parade not forgeworld re supply.

A small detachment of them were at nikea, the khan having been re directed to chondax..by Horus.

I'd explained to you about mk5/6 skip over, which is exactly as you put it. All 'modified armours were branded mk5, mk6 is Corvus.

As kol says- not all mk6 was given to rg a 'consignment' was given, with stocks and armourers still working on terra.

They would have imputed new data and began making mk6 armour. Why use the old?

There were some suits of mk7 armour on terra. I didn't say it was dominated by it...

You can think as you like obviously as this is off topic - scars = nomadic tribes = not going to be logistically good that's why they brought a Terran in to over see it.

While my memory may indeed be faulty, I seem to remember the mark IV being rare thing distinctly coming up in the latter part of TFH. Plus, if Mk IV was new in the first section of TFH, 30/40 years before the Heresy, then surely all Legions should have had time to acquire decent stocks of the armour before Horus starting favouring some over others, and he wouldn't be able to massively shift the relative prevalence of the of armour in only two years.

My point about Ullanor was that they weren't out in the wilds for the entire 'end of the Great Crusade period', so it's entirely possible they were resupplied with quantities of MkIV, Sicarans, TDA etc. while they were back in touch.

That said, I'm starting to think I misunderstood your initial post. I took "until terra and mk7 'Aquila' was issued to all loyalists" to mean that all (or at least the vast majority) loyalists at Terra were issued with Aquila. Though it seems more likely now you were referring to two separate events, the Siege and a more genral issue of the armour to all Legions during the Scouring. If so, my bad.

[Kol Saresk]

See, the funny thing is that I elaborated what theredknight said. And yes, according to Deliverance Lost and Extermination, Mk V Heresy armor was designated after Istvaan V. There were specific patterns(such as the Praetor Pattern developed at the Veridian Forge in Ultramar) that were in production before the Heresy, but the term is a catch-all for any unofficial pattern of armor that was in existence during the time of the Heresy.

 

So, like theredknight said, the Mk VI skipped being the Mk V.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Eh, my up on that one then. Sucks not having all my 40k reference material immediately available, leaving me stuck with that irritatingly fallible memory .

[DuskRaider]

If I build a Marine with a Mk. III torso, Mk. II greaves, a Mk. IV helm, and oven mitts for gloves, that's a Mk. V... It's a catch-all term for mix-matched, field repaired suits (which I think is a bit ridiculous). The official Mk. V models from FW bear little resemblance to any mix of armor and instead seem to be a suit all it's own.

[Theredknight]

Bearclaw - yes that's ok, maybe I didn't explain it well enough, not all loyalists were equipped with mk7 at terra, some would be perhaps, but not in great quantities as other marks.

 

Dusk raider - yep that would constitute mk5, literally field repairs and ceramite bonding studs.

the mk5 fw set was released aaaaages ago, before the hh series was out I think. They look like mk7 with bumps over them basically as the helmets look wrong with the period in the hh when they were released.

[Slips]

The Mk V Heresy suit helms are actually the Sarum Pattern helmets but with studs.

[Atia]

If I build a Marine with a Mk. III torso, Mk. II greaves, a Mk. IV helm, and oven mitts for gloves, that's a Mk. V... It's a catch-all term for mix-matched, field repaired suits (which I think is a bit ridiculous). The official Mk. V models from FW bear little resemblance to any mix of armor and instead seem to be a suit all it's own.

tbh, i think we may get even an alternate prototype-name-term for the FW Mk V models .... maybe they will be designated as Mantilla-pattern?:

 

HH book 1, Betrayal, pg. 71:

Helmet fitted with late M.30 'Mantilla' pattern respiration unit (later to become standard issue for MKV pattern armour)

 

 

The Mk V Heresy suit helms are actually the Sarum Pattern helmets but with studs.

or that, which would also makes sense, as Sarum is one of the traitor main forges ...

 

 

 

the mk5 fw set was released aaaaages ago, before the hh series was out I think. They look like mk7 with bumps over them basically as the helmets look wrong with the period in the hh when they were released.

which wasn't FW's fault, they just followed GW's fluff ;)

[Slips]

My only reference for it being the Sarum Pattern Helmet is the Artwork of a World Eater wearing +/- the same style of helmet sans studds in book 1. Though, that could be the image you're quoting, Atia.

[DuskRaider]

I just find it a bit nonsensical that FW / GW / BL have designated a hodge podge of parts a specific armor mark. It doesn't make it a separate designation. When I think of a separate armor mark, I think of something produced and specified, know what I mean? If I took my Mk. II Nissan S12 and slapped some Mk. I parts on it, it doesn't make it a Mk. III... it makes it a Mk. II with Mk. I parts on it.

[Atia]

nope, their are different ones:

 

pg. 71: SoH with "Mantilla" pattern helmet

pg. 72: SoH with similiar helmet, no name designation here

pg. 74: SoH with Sarum pattern helmet (in artwork, it looks like the mantilla pattern though ...)

pg. 93: WE with Sarum pattern helmet (same here, it looks like the mantilla on pg. 71)

[Lord Tharand]

I'm almost positive Sigismund secured suits of Mk. IV armor when he went to Mars.  I'll need to bust out Mechanicus and leaf throw it to be sure though.

[Atia]

I'm almost positive Sigismund secured suits of Mk. IV armor when he went to Mars.  I'll need to bust out Mechanicus and leaf throw it to be sure though.

that's retconned with "deliverence lost"

[tdemayo]

I think the White Scars would avoid Mark III as it is a heavier suit, and, iirc, less flexible and agile. So I'd go for IIs and IVs.

[Lord Tharand]

 

I'm almost positive Sigismund secured suits of Mk. IV armor when he went to Mars.  I'll need to bust out Mechanicus and leaf throw it to be sure though.

that's retconned with "deliverence lost"

 

 

Oh.  Then I stand corrected!

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

 

I'm almost positive Sigismund secured suits of Mk. IV armor when he went to Mars.  I'll need to bust out Mechanicus and leaf throw it to be sure though.

that's retconned with "deliverence lost"

 

 

Oh.  Then I stand corrected!

 

 

Retconned to what exactly?

[Atia]

 

 

 

I'm almost positive Sigismund secured suits of Mk. IV armor when he went to Mars.  I'll need to bust out Mechanicus and leaf throw it to be sure though.

that's retconned with "deliverence lost"

 

 

Oh.  Then I stand corrected!

 

 

Retconned to what exactly?

 

In 'Mechanicum' the Imperial Fists secured MK IV armour, the newer fluff is that they secured Mk VI (and VII plans)

[Marshal Reinhard]

Ah, and why the accounts were seemingly conflicted is revealed in plain text. Hmm.. this bears pondering.

 

Thanks for the clarification.