Skallagoose Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Ok guys, I have a biannual tournament coming up next month and i am making some final touch-ups to my army. I have about 150 pts flexible in my list and i need to submit a list shortly. its a 1500 highlander tournament (but modified rules slightly). I was trying to make about 150pts worth of rapiers, but scratch building them is going to take too long. So I'm stuck in a pickle... I have two lists right now, and as the topic title suggests, I'm stuck between Ulrik or a WGBL. Ulrik is Ulrick, while WGBL build is; Runic Armor, Storm Shield, Combi-Melta, and Krakenbone sword. Either way i will have this character in a drop pod with Cents in it. I found Cents are amazing with a wolf drop pod- but they can get overrun through assault. What do you guys think would make a cents deathstar more effective; Ulrik or a close combat surviving WGBL? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoic Raptor Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Does your WGBL have three arms, or am I missing something somewhere? Shouldn't the KBS replace one of your weapons? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3949349 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatSmasher Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think you're going to be misusing ulric because i don't believe he passes on his PE or Monster Hunter to units other than space wolves. He's also not nearly as tanky as your proposed battle leader. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3949353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skallagoose Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Does your WGBL have three arms, or am I missing something somewhere? Shouldn't the KBS replace one of your weapons? he does! haha, no you're right, i didnt catch it before but battle scribe let me do it (fingers blame at an ap). So remove the combo-bolted. but on the entry page for the champions of fenris relics it doesn't say "replace a weapon with…" Just a rules lawyer in me coming out. The actual lawyer in me would say look at the intent of the writers. WGBL; SS/Krakenbane sword Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3949354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skallagoose Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 I think you're going to be misusing ulric because i don't believe he passes on his PE or Monster Hunter to units other than space wolves. He's also not nearly as tanky as your proposed battle leader. I do not plan on having him as my warlord so he wouldn't have monster hunter, but isn't the rule for PE if an allied wolf unit within 6 inches (including himself), and the rule for PE itself says "at least one model in the unit" give the whole unit re-roll 1's to hit and wound? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3949360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Space Marines and Wolves are battle brothers and as such he, as an IC, can join them. Ulrik's rule says that he AND his unit have PE. PE rule says any model gives it to the unit so I'd say you're correct. The unit gets it but only nearby Wolves benefit from the 6" portion of his ability. I tend to look at Ulrik as a force multiplier. If you were running this model out solo then I'd say WGBL. However I'm currently 'sold out' on Ulrik when he and 10 blood claws smashed 2 carnifexes (sp?) this weekend. They may have done well on their own but PE made a big difference in scoring hits. Did I mention Ulrik just looked on both times? He never even got to swing his Crozium. Plasma pistol with rerolling ones mitigates 'Gets Hot' as well so you've still got the high STR low AP 12" range as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3949391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Dan Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I am all for Ulrik. Unless you are running a cavalry heavy army I would take him every time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3949418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Ulrik if he does indeed give your allied centurions PE. Rerolling all your ones to hit/wound in shooting makes your cents even more deadly than they were, and then they get those rerolls in CC too. Oh and fearless and 6+ FNP (i think???) Have you considered giving the drop pod the IA upgrade that means it doesnt scatter?? Means you can land 23" away from a target and still shoot all your grav gubbins (which should then leave you out of range of charge for most things f you are clever about your placement). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3949818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donkalleone Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Ulrik only gives a "Friendly Spacewolf Unit" PE Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3949837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tylerw Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Ulrik only gives a "Friendly Spacewolf Unit" PE That's his bubble, I believe. If he joins a unit, his unit gets PE as far as I can tell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3949862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Is the rule not along the lines of 'ulrik and any friendly space wolves unit within 6" gain preferred enemy (everything)." though? - In which case ulrik always has the preferred enemy (wether he is with a SW unit or not) - as an IC character can join the centurions (as they are battle brothers) - He then passes PE on to them as per the PE/IC rules in the BrB? (note - i have neither the codex or the BrB to hand haha) The main thing i could see with the issue here is wether ulrik actually gives PE to himself, or just to other space wolf units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3949863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatSmasher Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 What about Monster Hunter? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3949890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 What about Monster Hunter? You'd only get this if he is chosen as the warlord. And im not sure if MH is passed onto a unit Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3949923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 MH passes on. His bubble does not. However, I am wondering why this is an issue. Ulrik and WHBL have completely different functions. Ulrik is a force multiplier for pod heavy SW army back field shooty spam. WGBL is a cheap HQ that can act as a meat shield, decent combatant or mandatory tax. They have rather little in common except that they occupy the same slot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3950064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skallagoose Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 MH passes on. His bubble does not. However, I am wondering why this is an issue. Ulrik and WHBL have completely different functions. Ulrik is a force multiplier for pod heavy SW army back field shooty spam. WGBL is a cheap HQ that can act as a meat shield, decent combatant or mandatory tax. They have rather little in common except that they occupy the same slot. haha i am amazed how much comments this drew already. Im 90% sure he gives PE to cents through having preferred enemy himself. The question to start with was whether it was better to give the buffs to the cents from Ulrik or to have a meat shield in the form of a WGBL. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3950141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 MH passes on. His bubble does not. However, I am wondering why this is an issue. Ulrik and WHBL have completely different functions. Ulrik is a force multiplier for pod heavy SW army back field shooty spam. WGBL is a cheap HQ that can act as a meat shield, decent combatant or mandatory tax. They have rather little in common except that they occupy the same slot. haha i am amazed how much comments this drew already. Im 90% sure he gives PE to cents through having preferred enemy himself. The question to start with was whether it was better to give the buffs to the cents from Ulrik or to have a meat shield in the form of a WGBL. He passes PE on, that is correct. I am just saying that non-SW units are not affected by the actual bubble :P And your question can not be answered. What is your list? Only once we know your list can we comment what is missing and whether you need PE or meat-shield. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3950227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skallagoose Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 MH passes on. His bubble does not. However, I am wondering why this is an issue. Ulrik and WHBL have completely different functions. Ulrik is a force multiplier for pod heavy SW army back field shooty spam. WGBL is a cheap HQ that can act as a meat shield, decent combatant or mandatory tax. They have rather little in common except that they occupy the same slot. haha i am amazed how much comments this drew already. Im 90% sure he gives PE to cents through having preferred enemy himself. The question to start with was whether it was better to give the buffs to the cents from Ulrik or to have a meat shield in the form of a WGBL. He passes PE on, that is correct. I am just saying that non-SW units are not affected by the actual bubble And your question can not be answered. What is your list? Only once we know your list can we comment what is missing and whether you need PE or meat-shield. didnt want to put this in the list forum, just a simple answer to a complex question; but i see your point. very quick run-down. Champions of fenris; Harold Deathwolf (warlord) Rune priest lvl 2 (either Ulrik or meat shield) Elites; Iron priest- thunder wolf mount, 4 cyberwolves servitor Fast Attack; Drop pod Thunderwolf Cav- x5. Leader with wolf claw (accept challenges) and one with a power fist. All have storm shields Allied detachment Red Scorpions HQ- Magister Sevrin Loth Troop- Tac squad; rhino, plasma gun Heavy Support- Centurion Devastator squad Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3950327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Ulrik. Cents get the bonus when he is with them, TWC get the bonus when they reach the front lines. In this case he beats WGBL any day. I am not a fan of Harald. I prefer a 2+/3++ tank this is really up to your preferences. I would also you to get an Apothecary for Tacs (red scorps CT) to keep Loth save. He will be a bitch to kill with 2++ and FnP. To finance the Apoth I would l skip some SS on TWC. Choose his powers from Biomancy most of the time. You want Iron Arm on self and Endurance on focus target. Third power is optional. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3950354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skallagoose Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Ulrik. Cents get the bonus when he is with them, TWC get the bonus when they reach the front lines. In this case he beats WGBL any day. I am not a fan of Harald. I prefer a 2+/3++ tank this is really up to your preferences. I would also you to get an Apothecary for Tacs (red scorps CT) to keep Loth save. He will be a bitch to kill with 2++ and FnP. To finance the Apoth I would l skip some SS on TWC. Choose his powers from Biomancy most of the time. You want Iron Arm on self and Endurance on focus target. Third power is optional. Chapter tactics for red scorps makes the squad leader an apoth- no need to upgrade (its a no cost bonus). I also would prefer a 2+/3++ but i wouldn't have the set amount of points, and Harold's trait really helps my wolves. For instance- my wolves last game took down an imperial knight at initiative 4. I did several wounds to it prior to charging, but then S6 charge, Rending… 2 hits went through, enough for the kill. Again- i wasn't planning on running either of these hero choices tho. I was in the process of scratch building 3 rapier weapons- but i do not see it as being feasible to finish in the next few weeks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3950428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvmoogy Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Does your WGBL have three arms, or am I missing something somewhere? Shouldn't the KBS replace one of your weapons? he does! haha, no you're right, i didnt catch it before but battle scribe let me do it (fingers blame at an ap). So remove the combo-bolted. but on the entry page for the champions of fenris relics it doesn't say "replace a weapon with…" Just a rules lawyer in me coming out. The actual lawyer in me would say look at the intent of the writers. WGBL; SS/Krakenbane sword Just to float this, but doesn't the codex say you may take a storm shield not, you may replace a weapon with a storm shield...? I haven't got mine here to double check... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3952634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 MH passes on. His bubble does not. However, I am wondering why this is an issue. Ulrik and WHBL have completely different functions. Ulrik is a force multiplier for pod heavy SW army back field shooty spam. WGBL is a cheap HQ that can act as a meat shield, decent combatant or mandatory tax. They have rather little in common except that they occupy the same slot. haha i am amazed how much comments this drew already. Im 90% sure he gives PE to cents through having preferred enemy himself. The question to start with was whether it was better to give the buffs to the cents from Ulrik or to have a meat shield in the form of a WGBL. He passes PE on, that is correct. I am just saying that non-SW units are not affected by the actual bubble And your question can not be answered. What is your list? Only once we know your list can we comment what is missing and whether you need PE or meat-shield. Ok cool so just for my own clarification (as i already use ulrik a lot so want to make sure im using him right). He gives pref enemy to any space wolves withing 6" Any unit he joins gets preferred enemy due to it being passed on. If he is taken as a warlord, he also passes on monster hunter to any unit he joins. He is also fearless. Also grants a 6+ FNP. In this case - id definately take him in the centurion drop pod, as your making that horrible grav death even more horrible. Sure a WGBL could tank some wounds but their damage output with Ulrik in is gonna be daft. Especially if they end up having to deal with MCs. Turn two your thunderwolves should be up the board to support them anyway, so just try to not land them right next to your opponents best CC unit Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3952890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Centurions do not really get much benefit from Monster Hunter. They re-roll to wound anyway. PE is decent enough. Ulrik dies too fast to be Warlord though. I also would argue that Ulrik will not benefit from his own bubble when with the Cents, but that is a whole other can of worms. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3952945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skallagoose Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 Centurions do not really get much benefit from Monster Hunter. They re-roll to wound anyway. PE is decent enough. Ulrik dies too fast to be Warlord though. I also would argue that Ulrik will not benefit from his own bubble when with the Cents, but that is a whole other can of worms. I don't think its even an argument because of the reading the codex; "Slayer's Oath; Ulrik the Slayer, and all friendly units with space wolves faction within 6" of him, have the preferred enemy special rule." Remove the part in the comas; 'Ulrik the Slayer ha(s) the preferred enemy special rule'. Then the rule for PE gives it to the whole unit if one does. I submitted two different copies of my army list to the T.O. One with 3 rapiers and 1 with Ulrik. Thanks everyone for your assistance! Look forward to playing these lists Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3953027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatSmasher Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Good luck friend, your wolf brothers are behind you! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3953144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Ah okay, in that case Ulrik gets it. Sorry, thought the wording was different ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303421-ulrik-or-wolf-guard-battle-leader/#findComment-3953165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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