Some thoughts about the new Necrons

[BitsHammer]

I played a 1,500 point game against Necrons today and I walked away with some thoughts. So before I got into my thoughts here were the two armies:

 

Sisters of Battle (built using a CAD):

• Celestine [Rolled with Seraphim]
• Jacobus
• Priest (Litanies of Faith, Power Maul)
• Battle Conclave (4 DCA, 3 Crusaders, 1 Arco, 1 Rhino [Jacobus and Priests where here]
• Battle Sister Squad (10 models, 1 Heavy Flamer, 1 Melta, Melta Bomb, Rhino)
• Battle Sister Squad (10 models, 1 Heavy Flamer, 1 Melta, Melta Bomb, Rhino)
• Dominions (4 Meltas, Rhino)
• Seraphim (9 Seraphim, 2 models had Hand Flamers)
• Exorcists (3)

Total: 1500

 

Necrons (built using Decurion):

 

Reclamation Legion:

• Command Barge (Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Telsa Cannon)
• Warriors (10)
• Warriors (10)
• Immortals (10)
• Immortals (10, Tesla)
• Tomb Blades (6, Shield Vanes, Nebuloscopes)

Cantopek Harvest:

• Spyder (Fabricator Claw)
• Wraiths (3, Whip Coils)
• Scarabs (4)

Deathbringer Flight

• Doom Scythe
• Doom Scythe

Total: 1496

 

We played the The Emperor's Will (1 objective per table side) but we deployed using Cleanse and Control's deployment (table corners). Game ended with me having 3 VP (2 Objectives and Linebreaker) to his 2 VP (First Blood, Linebreaker). I know this sounds really good, but let me add in the last detail: I only had 6 models left alive (1 BSS (2 Battle Sisters and a Superior), 1 BSS (1 Battle Sister and a Superior in combat with the Command Barge on my objective) and Celestine (on his freshly cleared objective) at the bottom of Turn 5 when the game ended. During those 5 turns I killed his units of Warriors, killed the Tesla Immortals (Celestine FTW on both), killed his Wraiths (in melee using the Battle Conclave) and knocked a Doom Scythe out of the air.

 

This game lasted roughly 4 and a half hours. We had a LOT of dice to roll.

 

Anyways here are my general thoughts:

 

Necrons aren't an army that feels like it has a lot of teeth. I mean, yes, it can be really able to pour on the shots, but to effectively kill anything my opponent generally had to commit 2-3 units to one to effectively kill it. I mean generally focusing fire is important but when everything in his army was wounding on 3s or 2s it still takes quite a bit of shooting to kill Sisters. Love the power armor.

 

The Battle Conclave in melee is awesome. Being able to auto-pass War Hymns tests to re-roll saves can keep you around for a looooong time, turning it into a serious tarpit and re-roll wounds helps pick apart Wraiths. It took my opponent 4 rounds of combat (we started on the bottom of turn 2, he got his Command Barge into the combat at the bottom of Turn 3) to do the first wound to the unit in melee. And that was because his Commander managed to get a single wound on my Priest in a challenge. Top of Turn 4 I lost Jacobus (he failed his Ld to War Hymn with box cars, and on the single wound he took in the challenge he rolled a nat 1) and at the bottom of Turn 4 the unit broke after losing the Arco-Flaggelant, a Crusader and a DCA but rallied at the top of 5). So he had to commit 389 points (not counting the 3 Scarab bases that were added during the whole thing which actually adds 120 points to that whole mess) to effectively take on a 310 point unit (which I'm honestly looking at making even cheaper by swapping Jacobus points for a Priest with a Maul). Frankly, that's pretty good in my book. It's one of the better melee options we have and I will be using it more in the future.

 

The biggest problem I found to effectively fighting against that army were a combination of Resurrection Protocols and my opponent rolling WAY too many saves (to the point that if he wasn't rolling so poor to average on some of his shooting that I'd have to wonder if they were weighted). So while we don't have anything to prevent your opponent from rolling well we do need to look at trying to mitigate them: a) getting armor saves (to reduce how many models statistically survive each time), and b) we need to pour as many dice as possible into them to take them down through weight of fire.

 

So two things come to mind for this: 1) I am loath to say this but the Simulacrum might need to be a thing for BSS. Getting a second use of Preferred Enemy to help force hits and wounds is pretty important. And by pretty important I mean pretty much paramount. 2) We need to look at more options to ignore armor saves and generally drag them down that way.

 

For the second I'm looking at dropping an Exorcist to fit in an Avenger. That AP3 Mega Bolter looks solid to help the army a lot. Another thing I'm considering is a Knight. Really either works nicely, but I'm more fond of the Errant personally. I know it doesn't get as many shots, but it's slightly cheaper (which means more of other stuff in the army) and it is a little more reliable for popping vehicles (and if their army has Triarchs, breaking armor is very important because BS5 Necrons aren't something that should be allowed more than a turn or two if possible).

 

The other thing I'm looking at is a Vindicare Assassin. The reason of this comes down to two things: 1) Command Barges are durable as hell, 2) it helps kill Spyder (because if it dies the RP for the Harvest goes immediately). Armourbane rounds are good for both honestly.

 

So my final thoughts pretty much come down to the army being tough, but not impossible to beat (especially if you emphasize playing the mission) we just need to look at probably changing from the old meta.

 

Anyone else get any games in against Necrons since the new book came out? Other thoughts or opinions?

[Naminé]

If you held 2 objectives at the end then the score was actually 7 - 2 :p

 

There aren't any Necron players left where I play, so I doubt I'll be facing them anytime soon. I think dealing with Wraiths in assault is our best option, we can tarpit like no other army :p

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Played them last night with my Templars, Simply because we are going for a fully painted campaign so I have more work to do on my sisters foot troop before I ally them in.

 

Took a narrow loss at 7/6.

In fairness This is down to 3 things, his stupidly good saves passing his FNP reanimation proto so damn often, him still taking his armour saves against AP 4 on warriors which i did not know they would not get saves (Thought they were 3+ so never questioned it) and his first turn of shooting which saw me go down to 5 models which I had to battle on with, 1 more turn however and I would of had the win, losing first blood though hurt me.

 

Necrons in my eyes though are just another gun line army, scrap our armour with focused Gauss Fire, can give their troops BS 5, very tough lords, great saves and some really horrible armour choices.

In my eyes Combat is their main weaknesswhich for that you have to get through the fire storm and without any assault transports this is an issue for us.

 

I personally think a 20 Sister, Priest Blob with Litanies would help allot, the sheer massed fire Power with rerolls to hit, wound and save should help a Hell of Allot.

 

I feel Exorcists work better than Avengers, yes the Avenger is more reliable but it has to turn up and is a glass cannon with less strength in its guns, yes it has 2 Lascannons and an Avenger Mega Bolter and thats why I run 1 and 2 Exorcists normally or 2 Exorcists and a Heavy Bolter Retributor Squad.

 

Personally Knight wise i like the Archeron: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Titans/CERASTUS_KNIGHT_ACHERON.html

Its rules are there as well but its in essence a really big flamer cannon and Eviserator which just screams sisters to me.

 

A Vindicare for sisters in my eyes is useless.

We have allot of shooting and armour popping, considering the other choices we have Like Eversor, Calexus etc.

These fill great combat rolls for us but they Have allot of great low AP, Flamers, come in close with high assault ranges, etc.

These are the kinds of things we want to field to fill the gaps in our force.

Hell my Eversor can tank Wraith Knights solo...

[*Furyou Miko]

If you want to send out a priest-blob for CC duties, its worth investing in a few power mauls to get that 3+ to wound / no saves allowed on Warriors at Initiative.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

If you want to send out a priest-blob for CC duties, its worth investing in a few power mauls to get that 3+ to wound / no saves allowed on Warriors at Initiative.

 

I was personally thinking sheer weight of fire power and good saving rolls.

All things considered its quite cheap to field but a few Power weapons will likely find their way into there.

[Jacinda]

but to effectively kill anything my opponent generally had to commit 2-3 units to one to effectively kill it.

That is about average across the board and even across different wargames. There are specifics that can change this (like 10 Repentia vs an Imperial Knight) but in general, I count on sending 250 points for every 100 points of the target to ensure victory with minimal loss.

 

You can flip it around and see if this doesn't hold true. Saint Celestin and the Seraphim most likely killed a unit of warriors per turn while only taking a couple of casualties in return. That's 290 pts of Rightous Glory vs 120(?) points of bolt catchers? I don't know the cost of necrons off the top of my head. If you soften up the warriors with a little Exorcist fire first (another 125 points spent) you could probably roll over them with out even taking a wound at all.

 

For the second I'm looking at dropping an Exorcist to fit in an Avenger.

You will not be disappointed.

[BitsHammer]

If you held 2 objectives at the end then the score was actually 7 - 2

There aren't any Necron players left where I play, so I doubt I'll be facing them anytime soon. I think dealing with Wraiths in assault is our best option, we can tarpit like no other army

You are so right! I'm so mentally used to counting them as 1 point each I mathed that wrong.

[BitsHammer]

In fairness This is down to 3 things, his stupidly good saves passing his FNP reanimation proto so damn often, him still taking his armour saves against AP 4 on warriors which i did not know they would not get saves (Thought they were 3+ so never questioned it) and his first turn of shooting which saw me go down to 5 models which I had to battle on with, 1 more turn however and I would of had the win, losing first blood though hurt me.

Not really fairness if he wasn't taking his saves correctly.

 

Necrons in my eyes though are just another gun line army, scrap our armour with focused Gauss Fire, can give their troops BS 5, very tough lords, great saves and some really horrible armour choices.

In my eyes Combat is their main weaknesswhich for that you have to get through the fire storm and without any assault transports this is an issue for us.

I kind of agree, but in experience it felt more like fighting an extra durable Marine army instead of a gun army like Tau.

 

I personally think a 20 Sister, Priest Blob with Litanies would help allot, the sheer massed fire Power with rerolls to hit, wound and save should help a Hell of Allot.

I agree, I just don't like the idea of only getting to do that twice and at 1,500 points I can't really squeeze in the models I need to do it.

 

I feel Exorcists work better than Avengers, yes the Avenger is more reliable but it has to turn up and is a glass cannon with less strength in its guns, yes it has 2 Lascannons and an Avenger Mega Bolter and thats why I run 1 and 2 Exorcists normally or 2 Exorcists and a Heavy Bolter Retributor Squad.

Since Retributors can't do their ability as much they dropped off my list. They just don't have the range otherwise to make them that helpful in my book.

 

Personally Knight wise i like the Archeron: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Titans/CERASTUS_KNIGHT_ACHERON.html

Its rules are there as well but its in essence a really big flamer cannon and Eviserator which just screams sisters to me.

The Castigator is also on my list (Mega Bolter, plus a sword with Deflagerate) as a good match for Sisters.

 

A Vindicare for sisters in my eyes is useless.

I have to disagree. I think he's not a bad Assassin option to consider if you look at taking one.

 

We have allot of shooting and armour popping, considering the other choices we have Like Eversor, Calexus etc.

These fill great combat rolls for us but they Have allot of great low AP, Flamers, come in close with high assault ranges, etc.

We don't really have "a lot". At least not at 1,500 points. I mean I squeezed in as much as I could and it wasn't that much (also that was the first game I had where the Meltaguns were completely useless. They couldn't hit the broad side of the moon if they were standing on it that game).

 

Also the Calexus is way too situational to take in every army list.

 

 

If you want to send out a priest-blob for CC duties, its worth investing in a few power mauls to get that 3+ to wound / no saves allowed on Warriors at Initiative.

 

Power Mauls in general, at least in my opinion, are the best Power Weapon for Sisters.

 

 

 

 

but to effectively kill anything my opponent generally had to commit 2-3 units to one to effectively kill it.

 

That is about average across the board and even across different wargames. There are specifics that can change this (like 10 Repentia vs an Imperial Knight) but in general, I count on sending 250 points for every 100 points of the target to ensure victory with minimal loss.

 

You can flip it around and see if this doesn't hold true. Saint Celestin and the Seraphim most likely killed a unit of warriors per turn while only taking a couple of casualties in return. That's 290 pts of Rightous Glory vs 120(?) points of bolt catchers? I don't know the cost of necrons off the top of my head. If you soften up the warriors with a little Exorcist fire first (another 125 points spent) you could probably roll over them with out even taking a wound at all.

Actually Celestine solo'd the Immortals and Warriors. I had a LOT of bad rolls for saves with the Seraphim (failed a charge, rolled a LOT of 1s and 2s on my saves...turn 2 was the one where my dice didn't just go cold, they were at absolute zero), leaving Celestine on her own. She killed units by combat res (2-3 kills, unit breaks, I basically autosweep because she can't roll low enough to not catch them).

 

 

For the second I'm looking at dropping an Exorcist to fit in an Avenger.

You will not be disappointed.

Yeah, I've played them in the past and even without taking extras like Autocannons (which I wish I could trade with the Lascannons for more shots) it's a good flyer. Not the best flyer, but still really good.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

he was not taking the correct saves no, simply because he had saves and I may of won if that was the case but I know it was not done in a dick way and it was a good game still, a true tale of heroics.

 

 

I can agree on the extra durable marines, 3+ save imortals, 5+ FNP even on instant death where it drops down to 6+ and then their basic weapons mince our armour. :(

 

At 1500 a 320 point geared Blob unit with 2 Priests is a big investment, i don't like doing that more than once outside 1850

 

 

Personally I feel a Unit of 6 Sister Retibutor in a bunker with Simulacrum does a great job.

Durable and stings like hell.

 

 

Knights are always goign to be a solid ally for any force i feel, its hard to go wrong with them as a loyalist.

 

 

Vindicares are an expencive choice that bring more great shooting to a already shooting army, I would feel more confident with a combat assassin up close causing mayhem so my flamers and knight can close the gap.

 

In my Basic 1200 points I have 2 Dom Squads in Repressors with 4 Melta Each, 4 Multi Melta Immolators, Each Sisters Squad inside has a Heavy Flamer and Melta Gun and 2 Exorcists.

Thats 16 melta Rounds plus Exorcists before anything else but this is how I play, everyone has a play style.

 

the Calexus is but I fiund it hard to recall the name of the polymorph one as its similar and i am working from memory in work atm.

[BitsHammer]

If they're playing the Decurion they have a 4+ FnP that drops to a 5+ vs Instant Death which makes them that much harder.

 

Honestly I'm not a fan of the Immolator. For 60 points you lose your firepoint and are restricted to 6 wounds in the squad. It just weakens the firepower and the durability of the squad too much for me to be a fan of it. It's not like it's a  small point upgrade over a 50 point Rhino like it used to be. It just doesn't feel like a sidegrade anymore but a downgrade to me.

 

But that's just me and my personal view of that whole thing.

 

And yes, a Knight is definitely the easiest and most straightforward way to buff Sisters. The problem is putting one into a 1.5k list without sacrificing too much of anything else. I mean finding room for over 300 points is pretty hard in a smaller list.

 

And you're thinking of the Callidus.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

That may be true on the immolator but it also shields your sisters and gives you a more solid fire base.

Just will have smaller squads but you will have more of them.

 

Cheers, could never remember that name, too similar name with psychic abomination one.

 

At 1500 I find you have to take basic HQ and strip down a little to fit one.

[andrewm9]

One thing I have seriously considered trying is an army full of dominion squads using an Unbound list. I would field a mix of Immolators w/MM's and 5 girls w/4 flamers & a combi-flamer  or the opposite with  Immolators w/TL Heavy Flamers and 5 dominions with 4 meltas & a combi-melta. Drop in St Celestine with some Seraphim for ablative wounds. You have a lot of deployment options with Scout & Deep Strike with your warlord. If you get first turn you can put a serious hurting on almost any army with you bringing all of your guns to bear almost imemdiately. 

 

The only thing that stops me from doing so is lack of special weapons. It would cost a small fortuen to field that many runnign at ~10$ US a piece. I have a lot but not that many.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well Warriors are 13ppm, which I believe the same as Sisters. So, why not drop your vehicle roster entirely? Necrons laugh at enemy armour, especially Knight-Titans (nice big fat target to dump all their gauss at). They lack even AP3 outside of their own vehicles though, most of their firepower is AP5 or AP4. So unlike Tau, you'll actually suffer less wounds normally (3's instead of 2's), and you'll actually have armour saves. 

 

Just bring a horde of foot Sisters with as much flamer as you can manage. You have better armour saves, so his firepower isn't as good as yours in a straight up firefight. Expect to lose a couple of squads on the way in, but once you hit heavy flamer+flamer+rapid-fire range, it's gravy. 

 

I don't think you'll find melta all that useful. Necrons will snipe out your Dominions early sadly. For vehicle crushing, I'd bring some Allied GK for Dreadknights. Have them roll with Saint Celestine, watch the Necron player cry. He'll have to commit his Wraiths or Lycheguard to fend them off/tarpit, which frees up your infantry to fight the Necron infantry core.