Loar Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 So I just got done playing against the new necron codex and had a fairly odd situation occur. I played a very heavy black knight ravenwing list and had master of ambush. I inflitrated a large full 10 man black knight squad with an interrogator chaplian on a bike with the mace of redemption, as well as a RW command squad with ravenwing banner (auto hit and run), behind them was another RW Command squad with a librarian with a Powerfield and the Feel No Pain banner that I scouted up to be within range of the inflitrators. My opponent and friend was playing a very strong necron codex that had like 4 different detachments so it was very much a friendly "bring it" sorta matchup. I won first turn as well which is why i deployed aggressively, he failed to seize. First turn I have basically 20 black knights in rapid fire range, I can't charge but really want to kill his large squad of wraiths. Against nearly 40 plasma shots I only kill 4 wraiths out of the whole group after he makes a ridiculous amount of good saves. He now has his whole army to shoot and countercharge into me and it doesn't look good.... He shoots and I jink decently, but the 10 man squad with the chaplian doesn't have to jink as he wants to charge them with his warlord unit/deathstar. He charges all the squads and gets one down to just the hit and run banner, and the big 10 man squad to about 6. His big deathstar of warriors, an overlord and Orikan (named cryptek) are the ones that charged the 10 man + chaplain squad, he popped his res orb so basically loses nobody, maybe 1 or 2 warriors, however my chaplain hit and he fails his blind test. I then auto hit and run all squads out of combat. Now here is where it gets interesting... I still have 2 RW grenade launchers on the squad with the chaplain that didnt jink. The other squads did so they can only snapfire. I use the chaplain squad to re-engage his deathstar and hit him with a stasis grenade and plasma talons. He makes all his cover + RP saves, but once i get into combat I realize something. He was previously blinded, and blinded gives you a set WS and BS of 1, not just snap firing. I had also hit him with a stasis grenade which lowers his WS by 1, he is now at WS 0 for the whole squad, meaning I autohit him with all my attacks and he can't hit back. I now easily kill half the squad and sweeping advance the rest of his deathstar. Im 95 percent positive the was played correctly according to the rules but if you can tell me why it might be wrong I'd like to know, as against necrons with their low initiative this can be a pretty nasty combo. It also led me to think what happens if you stasis grenade a nonwalker vehicle and then charge it in combat. This gets a bit more murky, but it says you strike against it at WS 1 in close combat, would this mean with stasis grenades its at WS 0 as well and you autohit? I can see a rules argument potentially on that but after the game I thought it was worth mentioning. Anyways thats my thursday game night story, if anyone has any opinions or has run into something similar and can comment let me know. It certainly caught me off guard once I realized what was happening. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 You did it correctly. :D Page 9 of BRB supposts you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larhendiel Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Daaaamn. What a secret synergy I never realised about? FOUR auto-hitting S5 rending attacks per model? Is there a nastier unit in this galaxy!!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loar Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 yeah isn't that nuts?? I can't believe I've never seen this pop up before. Probably because most armies hardly ever fail a blind test where it would actually matter, but necrons are pretty good at that. The autohitting is nuts itself but the poor squad cant even blindly swing back! I didn't mention in the original post but that same squad I hit with a rad grenade as well, so each of the autohitting S5 rending hits was also wounding on a +2 because of the debuffed toughness to 3!! (jeeeeeeez) It also makes the rift cannon on the dark talon a bit better, as you can fairly easily line up a black knight/RW command squad to shoot and charge against what the dark talon shoots at. You can even stasis grenade the squad the dark talon will be shooting first to increase the chance they will fail the initiative test from blind on the rift cannon. I am still curious if this would work against non-walker vehicles. I'll have to look at the brb closer, im inclinded to think it doesnt but not sure. Seems if it was it woulda been mentioned by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larhendiel Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 But what a striking oddity, you auto-fail to hit rolls with WS0, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Page 9 is pretty clear auto hit on zero and I cant find anything that says your not stuck at 1 The rule I have on Vehicles is "Accordingly all Vehicles are treated as being Weapon Skill 1" unless their immobilized p78 brb so I guess its 1 -1 again 0 Wish I'd clocked this before its huge on vehicle assaults By the way we had a game with the New Cron Dex and he put a Destroyer Lord in his wraith squad with some artifact that causes you to snap shoot for a turn at them, luckily it didn't matter but it still took 8 plasma shots 1 nerf grenade & 52 Bolter shots to get them down to 1 model (Destroyer Lord + 6 Wraiths) The change from T4 to T5 is huge and I dunno how say Tau will cope with it, move 12 invisible for a turn then multi assault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loar Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 yeah if that works on vehicles thats huge, you are hitting rear armor already. But what a better surprise than all those autohit S5 rending shots on rear armor, you can even throw in an autohit melta bomb in their on a sarge as a big cherry on top! Could even be from a different regular RW squad as its not limited to just that squad. So many possibilities to abuse this man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 A reason why this never occurred before is because it's a conjunction of numerous factors 1- you need to BE CHARGED first so that you may disengage the same turn and charge again. 2- you need not to be destroyed by the charge (also not that often because if your opponent is charging you it's because he thinks he can harm you) 3- you need get the blind 4- you need to disengage. 5- you need not to scatter that much. Hence it's not an easy combo, congrats for managing to get profit from this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loar Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Yeah it was an odd series of events that led to it actually being pulled off, let alone it absolutely never being intentional, and just by a total fluke did we realize what was going to happen. And a lot had to go right in order for it to happen as you can see. The only way to "easily" manufactor this otherwise is if you are using the often abhored dark talon flyer (in a bolter banner list it would actually not be terrible, and its cheaper then the other short bus flyer), its rift cannon lets you relatively easily force a blind test during the shooting phase. You could shoot a stasis first (needs to hit) and then follow up with the rift cannon on a now debuffed unit to cause a better chance of failing the blind test. Because the stasis lasts the whole turn and not just a phase, if they fail the blind test from the rift cannon you can now charge in and autohit as well. Again this requires a lot to go right, the flyer needs to come in, you need to not miss with both blasts scattering, the unit needs to fail the initiative test (easy for necrons, potentially very hard for other units) and you need to then not do too much damage that you fail your charge. BUT its quite the wombo combo if you do manage to pull it off, against an ill-prepared non-invis deathstar it can easily wreck someones entire list/plan. The main thing is you have to keep your grenade squad from having to jink, which is tough when getting up close like this. Still its a pretty interesting scenario to think about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larhendiel Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 How about you throw grenade and charge with mace? First they get effects of grenade, making it softer, then due to high init of chaplain his strike gets first also you stay your round and your opponent round in combat and at the end of his CC you auto hit&run to charge on your turn again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varizel Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 What about using Dark Talon guys? Rift Cannon got Blind.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Thanks for this story. Very entertaining, and I hope you won the game on that note. :) But just so I understand, where are these coming from? : use the chaplain squad to re-engage his deathstar and hit him with a stasis grenade and plasma talons. Do you mean a stasis bomb? And they were 'previously blinded'...by what exactly? I'm just not quite following the bouncing ball here as I assumed you meant stasis bomb coming from a Dark Talon perhaps? Anyway, I'm glad you pulled this off. I've been playing my Necrons consistently since the codex came out and almost exclusively with the Decurion and it's very potent even while changing my lists up to what I consider to be: not optimal. It's either too much or my opponents aren't adapting properly so I'm very close to re-initializing my Dark Angels' force in some form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varizel Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 @Prot The blind was from Mace of Redemption. At least that's what i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Prot: Stasis Grenade from Black knights. Yep. This would have come in handy last game as I got the Wolf Guard termies to look at the Rift Cannon, then thinking I couldnt lower the WS below 1 I just shot rad at him instead of rad and stasis.. That would have changed up that entire combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeChisler Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 There is the dark talon Finished mine recently it works quite well with the BOD & the blast causes a blind test never thought to couple it with the WS nerf nade but sounds a good plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 @Prot The blind was from Mace of Redemption. At least that's what i think. - Ah okay, that explains what I may have been missing. Prot: Stasis Grenade from Black knights. Yep. This would have come in handy last game as I got the Wolf Guard termies to look at the Rift Cannon, then thinking I couldnt lower the WS below 1 I just shot rad at him instead of rad and stasis.. That would have changed up that entire combat. - Okay so that was the second hit to their WS. I'm just going to be 100% honest here and admit I've never used it in that way. That's going to change. They're the perfect target for Blind tests. There is the dark talon Finished mine recently it works quite well with the BOD & the blast causes a blind test never thought to couple it with the WS nerf nade but sounds a good plan - Please post it! I LOVE that model. I'm happy with how my Nephilim turned out but I personally really like the flying church look. I'd love to do one up and this actually gives me incentive to do so. Unfortunately I'd have to buy it but everytime I've tried to buy it my friend starts arguing with me. lol (this is the same friend that took all my chaos away and hid it in his garage.) It's not that I need his permission, but moreso that I don't want the lecture that goes with it (I am already married!). So now maybe I have the proper motivation to buy one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Unfortunately I'd have to buy it but everytime I've tried to buy it my friend starts arguing with me. lol (this is the same friend that took all my chaos away and hid it in his garage.) It's not that I need his permission, but moreso that I don't want the lecture that goes with it (I am already married!). So now maybe I have the proper motivation to buy one. DOO EEET! Dark Talon is the more useful and cheaper of the two fliers. And ignore that buddy. I went into the shop and picked up mine the second week it was out and everybody in there was "That flier sucks"... Its been out a week! You havent played with/against it yet... I have used it in almost every game I've played since I got it built in '13... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 And you can magnetize it to make a nephilim as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaelion Hexis Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Would this have worked? Set values are always worked out last after other modifiers (p8) There's no guide on when or how the effects are put in place, only the order in which you work them out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Well the blind carried over from his first combat in his opponents turn that he hit and run away from to shoot and charge again so the blind was in place from last phase...Wait, page 8 is talking specifically about wargear, not weapon effects... I must read this closer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erren Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I don't see how this is correct based on page 8 of the BRB. Under multiple modifiers, it says to apply multipliers, then additions/subtractions, then finally set values. So you'd apply the effects of the stasis grenade before the effects of Blind, and they'd stay at WS1. Now, I don't see why the stasis grenade wouldn't work on non-walker vehicles, but that's oddly phrased since it doesn't really say their WS is 1, just that they are treated as if it were 1 (why not just give them WS1, GW? Why?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I'm with the naysayers on this one. Stasis Anomaly and Blind are both special rules, so the rules on page 8 for multiple modifiers apply. You do need to read more closely Brother dean. To determine the affected unit's Weapon Skill we must apply the modifier from Stasis Anomaly first, then the set value from Blind, giving a result of WS1. The sequence in which those effects entered the game is not relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 That is the way I read it Cactus. I think the OP got it wrong... unless I am missing something else..rule # 3. "If it seems too good to be true", you've probably mis-read something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopounder Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 What about using Dark Talon guys? Rift Cannon got Blind.... I was just going to mention that. We have a flier that throws blind plates at people. Also, you don't need to re-charge. 1) Make them catch a stasis grenade 2) Assault with the squad + IC with mace of redemption 3) Most units are now i3 or i4, so IC strikes first and just has to hit once. 4) Rest of the unit strikes vs WS0 target. 5) ?? 6) Sweeping advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaelion Hexis Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I would argue against it's use against non vehicle walkers as well, since those vehicles don't have a WS to modify, they are merely treated as WS1. There is no actual stat. But that is one interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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