Kydoimos Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Hi everyone, After a long time thinking about beginning a new HH army with the Iron Hands, I finally chose another army : the Word Bearers. Since my goal with the Heresy is to be able to play fluffy, I ended up thinking that the XVIIth was more able to satisfy me in this regard. But more importantly, its story really echoes in me, especially the initial period of the Imperial Herald, before Lorgar. This will therefore be a pre-Heresy Word Bearer army. So no Gal Vorbak, no Lorgar, Erebus and Kor Phaeron. But Ashen Circle damnit! I might try to include some Gal Vorbak later on, since Argel Tal is certainly one my favorite character in the HH book series. I have a few ideas in mind, but this will be for later. For now, I plan to build my army with Mk II armour and a few Mk III, mainly for officers and HQ characters. But enough chatting, here is my first 2500 points Orbital Assault list : Imperial Heralds 2500QG Legion Praetor : 177 pts - Rite of war : Orbital Assault - Legion Terminator Praetor : Combi plasma, Paragon blade, Digital lasers, Cataphractii pattern terminator armour Legion Centurion : 130 pts - Combi plasma, Jump pack, Melta-bombs, Artificer Armour - Centurion - ChaplainTroops Legion Assault Squad (15) : 340 pts - Sergeant : Melta-bombs, Artificer Armour Legion Assault Squad (15) : 340 pts - Sergeant : Melta-bombs, Artificer Armour Legion Tactical Squad (10) : 200 pts - Vexilla - Sergeant : Melta-bombs - Legion Drop Pod Legion Tactical Squad (10) : 200 pts - Vexilla - Sergeant : Melta-bombs - Legion Drop Pod Legion Tactical Squad (10) : 200 pts - Vexilla - Sergeant : Melta-bombs - Legion Drop PodElite Legion Terminator Squad (8) : 310 pts - Plasma blaster, 3 Chainfist , 7 Cataphractii pattern terminator armour - Sergent Terminator : Cataphractii pattern terminator armourFast Attack [WB] The Ashen Circle (9) : 310 pts - 3 Power axe - Iconoclast : 3 Phosphex bombs, Artificer Armour Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron (6) : 290 pts - 2 Plasma cannon - Sky hunter sergeant : Melta-bombsTotal : 2497 points The Praetor is DSing with the Termis and the Chaplains with the Ashen Circles. Pods are here to take objective and/or attack tanks, whereas Assault squads are there to block enely infantry. The Terminator squad is designed to be able to challenge 2+ saves units, alongside Jetbikes. I think I'm a bit light on AT fire, what do you think ? But the restrictions of the RoW are really strict. What do you guys think of it ? Comments and critics welcome! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303443-changing-my-mind-imperial-heralds-project/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Easiest solution for anti-tank would be Dreadnoughts (Contemptors, really,) in Drop Pods. A Fire Raptor can deepstrike so it can technically fit in the list too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303443-changing-my-mind-imperial-heralds-project/#findComment-3949935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jaky Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Is a Rain of man. Like a Very legionary. ( personaly I dont go out from my ship without my apotecary ( Romio And Mercutian ) and my fire Raptor Gunship. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303443-changing-my-mind-imperial-heralds-project/#findComment-3949996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kydoimos Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Easiest solution for anti-tank would be Dreadnoughts (Contemptors, really,) in Drop Pods. A Fire Raptor can deepstrike so it can technically fit in the list too. Indeed for the Contemptor. However, FW do not sell Dreadclaws any more, am I right ? So, which pod would you suggest ? Is a Rain of man. Like a Very legionary. ( personaly I dont go out from my ship without my apotecary ( Romio And Mercutian ) and my fire Raptor Gunship. Yeah, I like this infantry-oriented list. I used to play a lot of tanks before, so it's quite a change for me. I also miss the apothecaries, but I don't have the points to put them, at least for the moment. Still thinking about that! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303443-changing-my-mind-imperial-heralds-project/#findComment-3950010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Easiest solution for anti-tank would be Dreadnoughts (Contemptors, really,) in Drop Pods. A Fire Raptor can deepstrike so it can technically fit in the list too. Indeed for the Contemptor. However, FW do not sell Dreadclaws any more, am I right ? So, which pod would you suggest ? Is a Rain of man. Like a Very legionary. ( personaly I dont go out from my ship without my apotecary ( Romio And Mercutian ) and my fire Raptor Gunship. Yeah, I like this infantry-oriented list. I used to play a lot of tanks before, so it's quite a change for me. I also miss the apothecaries, but I don't have the points to put them, at least for the moment. Still thinking about that! http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Chaos/CHAOS_VEHICLES_AND_ACCESSORIES/ANVILLUS_PATTERN_DREADCLAW_DROP_POD.html yeah they do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303443-changing-my-mind-imperial-heralds-project/#findComment-3950013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kydoimos Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 Easiest solution for anti-tank would be Dreadnoughts (Contemptors, really,) in Drop Pods. A Fire Raptor can deepstrike so it can technically fit in the list too. Indeed for the Contemptor. However, FW do not sell Dreadclaws any more, am I right ? So, which pod would you suggest ? Is a Rain of man. Like a Very legionary. ( personaly I dont go out from my ship without my apotecary ( Romio And Mercutian ) and my fire Raptor Gunship. Yeah, I like this infantry-oriented list. I used to play a lot of tanks before, so it's quite a change for me. I also miss the apothecaries, but I don't have the points to put them, at least for the moment. Still thinking about that! http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Chaos/CHAOS_VEHICLES_AND_ACCESSORIES/ANVILLUS_PATTERN_DREADCLAW_DROP_POD.html yeah they do. My mistake! I only read Anvillus and missed the Dreadclaw part Thanks! And therefore, new version of the list : HQ Legion Praetor : 170 pts - Rite of war : Orbital Assault - Legion Terminator Praetor : Paragon blade, Digital lasers, Cataphractii pattern terminator armour Legion Centurion : 125 pts - Combi plasma, Jump pack, Artificer Armour - Centurion - Chaplain TROOPS Legion Assault Squad (15) : 340 pts - Sergeant : Melta-bombs, Artificer Armour Legion Assault Squad (15) : 340 pts - Sergeant : Melta-bombs, Artificer Armour Legion Tactical Squad (10) : 200 pts - Vexilla - Sergeant : Melta-bombs - Legion Drop Pod Legion Tactical Squad (10) : 200 pts - Vexilla - Sergeant : Melta-bombs - Legion Drop Pod ELITE Legion Terminator Squad (8) : 300 pts - Plasma blaster, 2 Chainfist , 7 Cataphractii pattern terminator armour - Sergent Terminator : Cataphractii pattern terminator armour Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought : 185 pts - Two twin-linked lascannon FAST ATTACK [WB] The Ashen Circle (9) : 310 pts - 3 Power axe - Iconoclast : 3 Phosphex bombs, Artificer Armour Anvillus pattern Dreadclaw drop pod : 100 pts HEAVY SUPPORT Legion Fire Raptor gunship : 230 pts - Reaper autocannon battery, Armoured ceramite Total : 2500 points The Fire Raptor for anti-air and AT firepower ; the Contemptor in the pod also in an AT role. I had to remove one tactical squad in order to fit those units in the list though but I think it's stronger like this. The Contemptor DS on the first wave with a Tactical squad for first blood, aiming at the heaviest tanks of the enemy (Land Raiders of all type). The second tactical squad will then DS mid-field in order to block as much as possible the way. Assault squads will move on the flanks. T2 (hopefully), Termies and the Ashen will aim at killing the enemy HQ and/or the core infantry force of the enemy. Once all of these threats are removed, I should be able to fly from one objective to another. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303443-changing-my-mind-imperial-heralds-project/#findComment-3950020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 First list looks quite good (second posted while I was typing, will make a new post judging). However; Low on AT doesn't even come close to describing it - you have none. No, S7 does not count as AT. Sure, you have meltabombs on a couple of fast units, but they're not exactly going to be game winners, especially when your opponent knows when they're coming on. The best case scenario for you is that you have a turn 2 assault against an enemy vehicle with one of your 4 fast units; Jetbikes, Ashen Circle, or the assault squads. Remember, this is 7th edition as well. Losing Kill points is what kills vehicles in this edition, rather than hoping for a 1 in 3 chance of blowing up said vehicle - for every 3 Explodes you roll with a Meltabomb, you'll have stripped 3 Hull Points with just the penetrating hits. Whle that's a good ratio against Spartans, against lesser, more numerous vehicles, like Predators or Sicarans, that ratio is a bit sucky - especially when you have to throw 2-3 units into that assault just to kill a 75pt Predator. One of my favourite uses of Jetbikes is their ability to all take a Meltabomb, and the same with Outriders, (although they're not an option in this list). You might say "but Assault Squads can too - but a minimum unit is shopping up 300pts for 10 dudes with 10 Meltabombs. Jetbikes come to 150pts. Failing that are recon marines for the same price and bring 5 meltabombs, but they require a drop pod (+35pts), and lose the benefit of scout and outflank in these type of lists, AND don't have the speed to take on other targets after the initial strike. Nor do they pack Heavy Bolters which helps against Rhino's and Land Speeders. Bear in mind that with the Jetbikes, if you jink, you lose the ability to shoot the blast on your Plasma weapons. Considering that these provide the only access to significant AP2 threat (A Plasma Blaster and a pair of Combi Plasmas do not count), it's a bit easy for your opponent to fire their AP2 into this unit (you lack other appropriate targets IMHO if the enemy has some Terminators). On the Centurion, the Combi-plasma Rapid Fire means you cannot assault after, making the unit a bit of a waste for the sake of a couple of plasma shots. I'd rather use the Run move to get closer as everything else has Template range. Instead, put the points into a Pistol if you're that desperate and suck up the lost points on it. If I understand right; you have 2 Drop Pods coming in with DPA, one coming on as normal, with the option for Deep Striking any of the other units. I don't count ranged melta as effective AT in 30K - the abundance of Armoured Ceramite, and taking it on the units you most want to keep it alive mean that it's not relevant AT. This means AT I count as something which can reasonably effectively take on Armoured Ceramite Flare Shielded Spartans at range; which is limited in my eyes to Lance weapons from allied Mechanicum, Haywire, or Strength (D). Chainfists and Meltabombs can work, but due to how the damage table works, the expense of such units and the work to get them into range means that I don't really count them as adequate AT. So, discounting Melta, Chainfists and Meltabombs as AT, this leaves you with pretty much Lance, Haywire and Strength D. The primary source of Strength D is lords of war - but because Orbital Assault, you can't take any sans Lorgar. No, not even a Thunderhawk. Because Thunderhawks were never designed to drop into Combat Zones from orbit and unleash 30 Marines under the cover of 8 Heavy Bolters, 6 Missiles and a laser capable of taking on a Titan were they? There may be some Deep Strikers available with Strength D (check my signature for available legal Lords of War for 30K) but I cannot recall any. The other option are Knights - taken as allies, but they're melee only, and at 800pts minimum, takes a fair chunk away from your army. Haywire; well, allies are available with Gorgon Terminators from Iron Hands - but despite the new Delegatus Consul (coming Book V; Tempest) allowing the Pride of the Legion Rite of War for cheap for Pride of the Legion, they aren't scoring because they don't trust the Word Bearers. Where the Word Bearers do get some benefit is with Solar Auxilia Allies (well, Imperial Army, which SA count as for allies); these are Sworn Brothers, so do get lots of little benefits - including access to Aegis Defense Lines for your units to start in cover despite "no Fortifications". In addition to this, they have these amazing Grenade Launchers which fire Haywire. The primary access to these is from the Enginseer unit, which has the ability to take 8 (plus a Graviton Gun). Not only do you get access to cheap Scoring BS4 Volkite Spam for the mandatory scoring units, but you get access to the Aegis line with a Comms relay to ensure that your units come on time the following turn. This I think is immense; 440pts nets you the Legate Commander, an Enginseer with 8 Servo-Automata equipped with Tempest Round Grenade Launchers (8 BS3 Haywire shots), and 10 Veletaris Storm Section equipped with Volkites. An Augury Scanner on the Enginseer says a bit more NOPE to Alpha Legion and Raven Guard who are traditionally good against Orbital Lists due to speed of movement. Haywire is otherwise accessible via Graviton Guns. But these are Heavy, even the lesser versions. Unless they're relentless (so Terminator, Monstrous Creature, or vehicle mounted), they're not particularly viable I think, especially on a list which forces you to move like the Orbital Assault list. While you can deploy in range so that the short range isn't a problem, the fact you've got to wait until turn 2 to make use of it sort of makes it less useful in my eyes. For me, this relegates Graviton Guns to either Gorgon Terminators (which I've already addressed why that doesn't really work with Word Bearers), Dreadnoughts, Contemptor Dreadnoughts, or Legion Land Speeders. Land Speeders, I'm not a fan of. A Blast weapon on an open topped AV10/10/10 2HP vehicle whose existence is reliant on its ability to jink, and that ability to jink reliant on it not being within Line of Sight of a Sicaran, means that you're spending 65pts on a single Haywire hit before it bites it. Not a fan, even/especially if you spend 20pts on giving it a pair of HK missiles which may/may not hit (seriously, a 55% per missile not to do anything against AV10 rear?). Dreadnoughts (Contemptors) come to 155pts (205pts). They can be taken 1-3 in Drop Pods in Orbital Assault. I really, really love Blendernoughts in 30k drop pod lists; because AV13 5++ Dreadnoughts make rate messes of pretty much anything in an assault and can keep much more expensive units tied up for at least a couple of turns, especially if you hit them where they can't pile in and bring the Sergeants Meltabombs to bear. It's also pretty much 2 Guaranteed Haywire blasts to land on target. That then leaves you with lance. Unless you go for Mechanicum, there are also the new Praevian Consul in Book V; Tempest, which allows you to bring some Castellax. Equipped with Darkfire Cannons give them some pretty amazing Damage output against a vehicle, and 20 T7 wounds with preferred enemy against units close to the unit. However, Darkfire are still S7, and S7 vs AV12, as seen in leafblower guard a few years back isn't exactly the most powerful reliable thing without additional rules such as Tank Hunter (which is why it's really only an option IMHO for Alpha Legion who get Tank Hunter Praevians). If you go Mechanicum, however, Krios Venator tanks with 4 S9 AP2 shots can do alright, while Scouting Vorax can use their Smash in a pinch which is alright (if not amazing) for Tank Hunting (S10 AP2, reroll failed Pens). Short of that, there is the Lightning Primaris equipped with 4x Kraken Penetrators - but I'm not a fan of that with the incoming Deredeo (4 Interceptor Skyfire 48" BS5 S8 Reroll failed Armour Pen shots makes a mess of AV10 2HP vehicles in a way that the Kheres doesn't - this is the Themistocles to the Lighting's "Xerxes" to the "Spartan"). Even forcing the snap fire from forcing the jink is enough to make it near useless and a 200pt deadweight. A more resilient flyer, like the Caestus or Fire Raptor can do well - but the Caestus' damage is reliant on ramming vs vehicles (because Melta blasts don't really work against AV14 Flare Shields) - the melta is pretty much just another blob remover capable of taking on FNP, while the Fire Raptor can't damage AV14 either way. The only other Flyer around at the minute with AT is the Storm Eagle - and I'm sorry, but 250pts for a pair of TL Lascannons isn't fantastic. HOWEVER, where it does come in is with Recon Marines, who get them as Dedicated Transport. 400pts is still a big investment, but you get a unit of scoring Meltabomb armed Recon Marines in a Storm Eagle which can Deep Strike OR Outflank with Acute Senses. In short, you need a massive reworking and removal of units to get any sort of ranged AT in the army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303443-changing-my-mind-imperial-heralds-project/#findComment-3950126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kydoimos Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 Well, I gotta say I didn't expect such an extensive answer! Thanks a lot really for your input. And here is the new list with quite a lot of changes and following some of your ideas : I dropped the RoW that made things too complicated in my mind and included allies through a Solar Auxilia force. I tried to put a Knight too, but I think it will be for the 3K level. I like the Castigator, but it has no D-weapon, too bad. Imperial Heralds 2500HQ [Warlord] Legion Centurion : 120 pts - Centurion - Primus medicae - Legion Terminator Centurion : Cataphractii pattern terminator armour Legion Centurion : 115 pts - Jump pack, Artificer Armour - Centurion - ChaplainTROOPS Legion Tactical Squad (15) : 210 pts - Vexilla - Sergeant Legion Tactical Squad (15) : 210 pts - Vexilla - SergeantELITE Legion Destroyer Squad (5) : 305 pts - Missile launcher and suspensor web (rad missiles), Jump pack, Melta-bombs - Sergeant : 3 Phosphex bombs Legion Terminator Squad (5) : 595 pts - Plasma blaster, Chainfist , 3 Pair of Lightning claws - Sergent Terminator : Grenade harness, Cataphractii pattern terminator armour - Spartan assault tank : Armoured ceramite, Flare ShieldFAST ATTACK [WB] The Ashen Circle (10) : 315 pts - Iconoclast : 3 Phosphex bombs, Artificer ArmourSolar Auxilia RegimentHQ Auxilia Tactical Command Section (5) : 210 pts - Proclamaitor - Strategos - Vexilarius - Dracosan Armoured TransportTROOPS Veletaris Storm Section (10) : 250 pts - Prime - Dracosan Armoured TransportELITE Enginseer Auxilia (5) : 170 pts - 8 Grenade launcher (kinetic, tempest and krak) - Enginseer Adept : Augury scanner - 4 Servo-automataTotal : 2500 points Concerning SA allies : both Veletaris and Enginseer are here for AT purpose and both will ride within a Dracosan. The Enginseer will borrow the Tactical Command's. I wanted to put a Demolisher cannon on one of these vehicules but no points left. I chose the Tactical Command squad rather than the Legate because of the orbital bombardment. Not sure if it is a real bonus, but if it works after all. Concerning Word Bearers : the most difficult part for me are the HQ. I need a Chaplain, so that's settled but I still have problems with the other HQ choice. I put a Terminator Primus Medicae in order to make my Termies more resilient, but still not sure. The Tactical squads are here to footslog and keep objectives. I'm not really convinced with this solution since it is a reaaaallyyyy slow option, but Rhinos are too fragile for me. Am I wrong ? The Chaplain is going with the Destroyers and the Ashen Circle, all with JP. Those two units are coming alongside for fluff reason, which is why I chose to play this army. What do you think ? Nothing is settled yet, I'm really open to any suggestion. I find it hard to play a WB's force without all their heretics elements, but that may come later. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303443-changing-my-mind-imperial-heralds-project/#findComment-3950833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kydoimos Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 Aaand back on tracks! After a few days AFK, I'm back with a new version of my list. I spent a lot of time thinking about what Hesh Kadesh suggested, and here is the result : Space Marines : Pre Heresy : Imperial Heralds 2500Détachement principalHQ Legion Centurion : 115 pts - Jump pack, Artificer Armour - Centurion - Primus medicae Legion Centurion : 115 pts - Jump pack, Artificer Armour - Centurion - ChaplainTROOPS Legion Tactical Squad (10) : 195 pts - Vexilla - Sergeant - Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier Legion Tactical Squad (10) : 195 pts - Vexilla - Sergeant - Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier Legion Tactical Support Squad (7) : 255 pts - 6 Plasma gun - Sergeant : Combi plasma - Legion Rhino Armoured CarrierELITE Legion Destroyer Squad (10) : 375 pts - 2 Missile launcher and suspensor web (rad missiles), Jump pack - SergeantFAST ATTACK [WB] The Ashen Circle (8) : 275 pts - 2 Power axe - Iconoclast : 3 Phosphex bombsHEAVY SUPPORT Legion Heavy Support Squad (5) : 240 pts - Lascannon - Sergeant : Augury scanner, Nuncio Vox Legion Heavy Support Squad (5) : 240 pts - Lascannon - Sergeant : Augury scanner, Nuncio Vox Legion Whirlwind Scorpius : 120 pts - Dozer bladeLORD OF WAR Knight Errant : 375 ptsTotal : 2500 points I changed the allies for a Knight. It's been a long time since I wanted to play one, and I felt this list was an excellent occasion. It gives me a D strength weapon, AT firepower and a strong CC unit. What's not to like ? About the HQs : well the compulsory Chaplain of course ; and a Primus Medicae with JP. Those two characters will join the Ashen Circle and the Destroyer squad. This unit is here for two purposes : fluff ; and their options are a good complement for the Ashen Circle. Depending on the situation, all these units will either be on simple reserve, DS or directly on the board. Their target are enemies IC or HQ. Since I lacked AT firepower on the previous list, I decided to include 2 heavy support squads with lascans. They have an augury scanner to protect them of enemy DS and a Nuncio vox if I choose to DS with my JP units. They'll be deployed on each flank, that way I'll have a choice depending on the situation. The two tactical squads are on Rhinos in order to be mobile and take objectives since I play Maelstrom missions very often. I added a Scorpius for its anti-horde/MEQ capacity. I chose to include a plasma Tactical support squad in a Rhino as well. Could be welcome if I have to fight a PotL list. What do you think ? Please, critics and comments welcome! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303443-changing-my-mind-imperial-heralds-project/#findComment-3959078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Knights Errant are not Lords of War for legions, sadly. In a bit of a rush so can't offer too much help, but if you're ever wondering what Lords of War are available, check my sig. I don't mean to brag or anything, but it's invaluable to see actually what the options are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303443-changing-my-mind-imperial-heralds-project/#findComment-3960996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dono1979 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 As Hesh says, Knights aren't available as Lords of War for Legions, they are available as allies but you need to take two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303443-changing-my-mind-imperial-heralds-project/#findComment-3961073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dono1979 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 On the overall list, I think it looks like a fun list to with and against. I would be a little wary of such a low Troop count but then I think it largely depends on your local groups play style. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303443-changing-my-mind-imperial-heralds-project/#findComment-3961081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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