Tactica and questions CSM / death guard

[nevaenuffbass]

Hi all. I'm new to the CSM branch of this forum, but have been collecting death guard for a couple of years now. I have spent many hours with the codex, and had a few games. I thought I'd share my impressions on the CSM as an army for everyone's benefit, but also to get more experienced players to critically review my thinking. Also note, that playing death guard I only really consider the mark of nurgle (or no mark) as I won't run any other. 

 

I have considered the CSM codex quite sad, until 7ed and the new dexes being toned down a bit. I doubt that the book will be truly competitive against a well-build eldar or cron army played by a good general, but it can probably compete with many of the others. It also has a lot of potential in a comped environment. 

 

So the builds... I see a few builds that could work well. Contrary to popular opinion, I think we can build a reasonable shooting army, and also a good assault-based and fast army, and probably a hybrid. 

 

 

1. Shooting based

So shooting... we have a hidden gem in the havocs choice. They are cheap firepower, specifically with the autocannons, and when supported by helbrutes (yep helbrutes) and obliterators. Oblits because they are the swiss army knife of the book (of the game really).

 

Havocs with autocannons and extra bodies are quite hard to shift, and the bolters add something to the firepower. Helbrutes, they can take a missile launcher, which while not a second reaper seems like a reasonable supporting weapon with the two different modes of firing (frag / krak). They also have access to the plasma cannon or reaper. These guys are cheap, and reasonably durable if there are other armoured options, and moreso if you can use terrain well (move and shoot heavy weapons, gain cover saves including the aegis). With the power scourge they are also a reasonable counter-attack unit. 

 

The crimson slaughter supplement allows a battle-brother sorceror who can access divination (so leave him unmarked) so your havocs can be re-rolling to hit and ignoring cover. 50ish point tax for some cultists also opens up a 4th FA or Heavy slot as well, and cultists aren't useless. 

 

To support the shooty units, I'd consider "chaff". Cultists and plague zombies do this well. Both are actually pretty good units for what they are - I play with and against drop pod armies. Being able to deny a good spot for sternguard etc. to drop is handy, as is speed-bumping fast assault units or soaking the charge of same (thunder-wolves, death company - who can incidentally assault out of a drop pod on turn 1 with the flesh tearer formation). 

 

Closer range firepower can be provided by a few rhino-riding options or deep striking termis / oblits (or even helbrutes with that formation). The issue is that deep striking isn't reliable and rhinos are fragile. But sometimes we are going to need melta so these options are worth considering. And on rhinos, the chaos rhino differs considerably from the imperial counterpart, and I am growing fond of it. Mostly, the havoc makes them a long range weapon platform and is still quite cheap. Even if it never moves a single model (havocs can take them as ded transports) I can see it having some uses. The 48" S5 small twin linked small blast is situationally handy. But also, it can be used to turbo boost to provide cover to things like havocs and helbrutes after they have shot. Dozer blade, warpflame gargoyles and extra armour can also be worthwhile cheap upgrades.

 

So what to put in rhinos. Chosen, basic CSMs (unmarked) and plague marines offer access to plasma or melta. And after a bunch of math-hammer, I think plague marines are probably the best choice, mostly for the ability to put 2 special weapons and a combi version of the same with only 5 models. Still the unit is quite expensive.

 

HQ-wise, sorcerors (summon spam?) and lords for a counter assault unit make sense. 

A heldrake or 2 in support can't hurt also, even if they aren't the amaze-balls they once were. 

 

 

2. Fast assaulty

 

Nurgle demon prince (2+ cover with shrouded + jink), bikers led by a nurgle lord, spawn and mauler fiends are all fast and capable in assault. Supported by some rhino's carrying special weapons, and deep striking termis / oblits. Target selection becomes everything. You don't want the DP coming against S10 (he is vulnerable to instakill) but that is relatively rare (thunderwolves with thunderhammers have it though). Good thing that the nurgle chaos lord on bike is T6 so can try and match up against this. 

 

The issue is that such a list probably has one answer to everything, and that one answer will be targetted by a savvy opponent. Spawn are good at clearing hordes, with lots of attacks, but they don't do so well against armoured targets. The DP does well against armoured infantry. The bikes can do pretty well against high strength opponents (why can't nurgle bikes get shrouded if a DP and plaguebearers can, that would be a sensible and useful nurgle spell). The mauler (esp with magma cutters) is pretty boss at destroying vehicles, even with the new damage table. It's fast enough to chase down wave serpents too. Seems good value with it's inbuilt saves (demon, ignores stuns / shaken on 2+).

 

3. Combination

Well, kinda take the best of both these choices and mash them into an army.

 

Allies...

I like the idea of Chaos demon allies too... but I'd limit myself to nurgle demons. I can see the use of nurglings, a herald and a soulgrinder as an allied contingent. The plague drones aren't bad also, for their ability to take an icon to have plaguebearers deep strike without scatter (on to an objective, into cover)

 

Some other units I'd like to discuss

 

Chaos space marines -  I have tonnes of them. I can't see them really being a good choice, which makes me a tad sad. I think they are outshone by smaller numbers of plague marines (10 CSM with 2.5 plasmas is more than 5 plague marines with same) if for no other reason than for fearless. I'd like to see a blob of 20 work well, but bolter drill seems so meh, and even with a fearless banner I don't see them as particularly resilient - kill half of them and the unit isn't that effective. I'd be really happy for someone to tell me I am wrong. 

 

Possessed - from crimson slaughter. Maybe they'll be shrouded, maybe they'll have the best inv in the CSM book, maybe they'll be beasts and move fast. But the inability to predict which one seems to seriously limit their usefulness. If you could choose, that'd be much more playable - deliver them in a shrouded landraider and then give them 3++ once they are there. Does anyone run these and find that they are worth their considerable cost?

 

Chaos knight - is there such a thing? I hear it mentioned. If so, does anyone run them, and do they work? I can see the potential in either of the lists. He wouldn't cost much more than a kitted demon prince.

 

Typhus. I have watched too much walking dead, own zombicide and like this idea. The way I see it, the zombies are better chaff than cultists, mostly for their fearless (we don't take cultists to shoot now do we). And I can certainly use the zombies - get in the way, tarpit, obsec, escort a character. But typhus himself, for just shy of the cost of a land raider seems a bit meh. He adds a couple of psychic dice but his spells are a bit meh. His special attack is pretty good, but pretty situational and makes you think twice about what unit to attach him to. He has a force weapon, but it strikes last and he has a crappy inv save and is himself vulnerable to instant death in the same way a DP is. He is slow, and the raider is an expensive (over-costed, again correct me if I'm wrong) ride. 

 

Warpsmith. Perhaps a hidden gem, esp in the right list. Repairing helbrutes and the like can be handy (btw the crazed thing with helbrutes suits the shooty build 1/3 of the time) with the new damage table and combined with cover and IWND (on maulers). He has some good kit but an average stat-line. 

 

I feel we are missing the awesome unit. Once it was heldrakes (now they are just okay). Grey knights have the dreadknights, crons have wraiths, eldar have a book full of amazing choices, SMs have centurions / thunderfires - what is ours? Is there something I am missing, or are most / all our units either over-costed or unreliable?

 

 

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed the read and have something to add?

 

[Sception]

Type one is rather .imited, with havocs competing with oblits for heavy space, S7 often just not being enough, and too much ap3, cover ignoring shooting out there for havocs to be half as hatdy as they seem, while oblits are a bit pricey (though still good support).

 

Type 2 is more typical lately, as bikes, spawn, and maulers are pretty much our best units, and they all work well together and do their jobs. Still a bit fragile, and somewhat lacking in complementary core, but yeah. Either core book to take the nurgle/mace/wings prince, or crimson slaughter for the T6, 2+/4++, s5/ap2 at init (after killing a few dudes) bike lord (basically Krannon with mark of nurgle and a bike). This build can be somewhat lacking in actual 'chaos space marines' (though a couple squads w/ plasma in rhinos moving up to rapid fire before the punch stuff lands can work out), not to memtion versatility or subtlty, but the units actually work, and do something that loyalists dont do the same but better, which can be a problem for shooty csm builds.