Never_born Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Hi folks. Despite normally being a firm supporter of Black Library, there have been a couple of instances recently where I've found myself a bit unhappy with them in terms of a lack of honesty towards, and respect for their readers. The way they've priced and described both Khârn and Tallarn : Ironclad has struck me as a bit dishonest, in terms of the whole novel/novella conversation, and their communication regarding short stories in anthologies has really quite annoyed me. I bought Daemonology and Black Oculus as soon as they came out, and then much later on found out that they were included in Blades of the Traitors - I even emailed BL to query this, and got a complete 'tough luck' response. I've just posted up on my blog an article I've written, which goes into my thoughts on these areas in which BL have really disappointed me recently : https://trackofwords.wordpress.com/2015/02/17/black-library-how-to-lose-fans-and-alienate-readers/ I'd love to hear what you guys think. Are you happy to pay £9.99 for an ebook that's less than 200 pages long; do you object to BL advertising Ironclad as a novel? It's quite interesting writing this kind of article, and I'd be interested still further to see if other people agree, or if you guys think I'm making a mountain out of a molehill with all this. Any thoughts? NB. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Is it dishonest, or just expensive? Nobody is really surprised when short stories are later collected in an anthology, are they? The line between a novella and a novel is pretty subjective, but by my reckoning, Khârn: Eater of Worlds is ~58k words. That's well above the upper limit of every single literary prize listed on this page, putting it pretty firmly in "novel" territory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3954199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Is it dishonest? Not really. Does it suck massive balls and is it infuriating and makes me want to go poop outside their front door? Most definitely yes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3954260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I've made it a policy never to purchase a novella from BL. It often means I'm behind on certain things, but I'll stick to anthologies and not get my wallet screwed. what really pissed me off was the Night Lord series...I bought every book as it was released, LOVED AND DEVOURED THEM, and then was told to get the short stories I had to buy the omnibus. yea, I cursed a mighty storm that day. I bought the books and helped in my minuscule way to make it popular enough to warrant an omnibus. I guess thats the way the business works, but I dont have to support it. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3954371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I try to not purchase the eShorts, rather waiting for the physical, because of that! If Tallarn is billed as a novel, I would hope it gets a quicker release for everyone in standard edition. What is it priced at? £30? I will still try my best to purchase It. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3954382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathspectersgt7 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Refuse any type of ebooks i think they over charge plus like paper anyway. And I think their prices overall are high but I still buy anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3954567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never_born Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 Thanks for the comments guys. Lucien - I think it's the other way round that annoys me, not so much that stories get collected together later on (which is a good thing), but rather that when they do, BL aren't always clear about whether the anthology contains old stories or new ones. In terms of the novel/novella thing, for me it's not a case of what they call a book but rather their consistency, or lack of. Calling Khârn a novel is fine. Selling it for the same price as a 140,000 word novel though...that's not a good price. £10 for an ebook is pricey at the best of times, but for a short one? Ultimately, I'd just like them to be clear, so that customers can make informed decisions. Chaeron - Tallarn : Ironclad is £40, so that's £10 more than the LE novellas. To be fair, I'm happy paying £30 for the LE novellas (because I'm a sucker), so £40 for a book almost twice the size is fine by me. It just annoys me that they're not being clear about what it is. Every book in the Heresy series has either been 100k words or more, in which case they've sold it as a novel, or about 40k words, in which case they've sold it as a novella. Ironclad sits between those, so they should make that clear. As for the speed of release...I wouldn't hold your breath. Page count aside, it's a LE novella in all other respects. The annoying thing is, unless BL keep irritating me like this the chances are I'm going to keep buying the books! I'm clearly just a sucker... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3954949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 BL aren't always clear about whether the anthology contains old stories or new ones. When they're available to buy, they usually list the stories it contains. The only exception I can think of is Trial by Blood, which was reformatted as a novel. Calling Khârn a novel is fine. Selling it for the same price as a 140,000 word novel though...that's not a good price. I think pricing novels by the word would be very unusual. Penguin certainly charged me the same for a 200 page Borges as a 700 page Dickens. The value of a book isn't its length. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3955011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Aren't the number of pages usually listed? At least on Apples iBooks store from where I get them the number of (standard size) pages is listed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3955039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Aren't the number of pages usually listed? Usually, but not if there's no physical edition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3955095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Aye, I've been getting similar feelings about BL myself lately. I'm a big fan of the HH series (it and End Times are pretty much the only things holding my attention right now ), and I'll be the first to defend it from certain common criticisms I think are nonsense (e.g. "The plot isn't advancing!"), but I'll also readily agree there are very just criticisms, and those highlighted in the OP are among them. In particular their treatment of both Blades of the Traitors and Tallarn: Ironclad annoyed me, as with those it went beyond just iffy practices and into outright lying: Tallarn Ironclad has been put forward as a novel, then a novella, then back to a novel again, and while there is no exact definition, when you've got something that hovers over the line like that you should really be honest about it. With Blades of the Traitors it's bad enough how rapidly they put Daemonology and Black Oculus out in an anthology like that (it's one thing to publish shorts after a good time, but with when those stories originally came out they must have known there and then that they'd be re-publishing them within Blades very soon). But even more than this, see where it says "five epic short stories" in the description on the BL website? Yeah, that's a very recent change. Until recently and for a good while that said "five brand new stories". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3955342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Chaeron - Tallarn : Ironclad is £40, so that's £10 more than the LE novellas. To be fair, I'm happy paying £30 for the LE novellas (because I'm a sucker), so £40 for a book almost twice the size is fine by me. It just annoys me that they're not being clear about what it is. Every book in the Heresy series has either been 100k words or more, in which case they've sold it as a novel, or about 40k words, in which case they've sold it as a novella. Ironclad sits between those, so they should make that clear. As for the speed of release...I wouldn't hold your breath. Page count aside, it's a LE novella in all other respects. The annoying thing is, unless BL keep irritating me like this the chances are I'm going to keep buying the books! I'm clearly just a sucker... Thanks bud, at least I know! Might have to see if there's something else that'll then tip me to the £45 mark! They are definitely marketing this as the first limited edition novel - it'll be interesting to see if this is an experiment, or about to become a more regular thing. I'm personally okay with the £30 for a LE - but I know a lot of people will prefer to wait for the standard. Depends on how essential this is as part of the overall Heresy (or this excellent arc that French is pursuing). Either way, I'll be trying to get it! :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3955616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 There was the same issue with some of the Flesh Tearer novels that came out last year. IIRC there was one which other forumites advised was a novella or collection of short stories, but the actual BL webpage gave the impression that it was a brand new novel. Would accusing BL of being dishonest on an online forum count as libel? I'm not sure, but I'd be careful of exactly what anyone writes on this topic either way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3955843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I would not have bought the World Eaters book if I had know it was that short. I didn't see the word novella anywhere near the description. (Needless to say I didn't feel the need to look since it was 15 bucks) Which I imagine they got over on a lot of people with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3956342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Thirst Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 There was the same issue with some of the Flesh Tearer novels that came out last year. IIRC there was one which other forumites advised was a novella or collection of short stories, but the actual BL webpage gave the impression that it was a brand new novel. Would accusing BL of being dishonest on an online forum count as libel? I'm not sure, but I'd be careful of exactly what anyone writes on this topic either way. This was Trial by Blood, which was released at the same time as Sons of Wrath (collectors edition) My initial impression was "Wow, two whole brand new Flesh Tearers novels, finally some love" however, being as poor as you all know I am held off on a purchase (usually end up buying a few months later from a brick and mortar in paperback edition). Then about 2-3 weeks later saw posts on the forum that Trial by Blood wasnt all it seemed and was a collection of short stories, most of which I already have. Is it false advertising, no, because they never really posted in big bold letters "Two Whole New Novels" they relied on their reader base to assume they were and hoped they would jump up and down with excitement and 'click, click, click, bought, done' Not false advertising, just lack of control and 'reading about the content before purchase' by the consumer Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3956471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgjensen Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Is it false advertising, no, because they never really posted in big bold letters "Two Whole New Novels" they relied on their reader base to assume they were and hoped they would jump up and down with excitement and 'click, click, click, bought, done' Not false advertising, just lack of control and 'reading about the content before purchase' by the consumer I just looked up Trial By Blood, and wow. I guess it depends on your standards of what false advertising is, but I consider it wildly misleading. It is advertised as a 'tale' and a plot outline is given that gives no indication of it being anything other than one novel. The only place I could see that it was in fact a collection of short stories was by downloading the free sample and going to the dedication and legal text, which mentions when the individual titles were first published - and even that doesn't spell it out. The bit of introductory story we are given certainly doesn't hint at it. I literally thought you might have confused this book with another title. Poor form. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3956510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 maybe it's not dishonest, as it doesnt exactly state what it is, but it is bad business. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3956520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Thirst Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 maybe it's not dishonest, as it doesnt exactly state what it is, but it is bad business. WLK Oh no we definitely agree on that, dodgy business practice if ever I saw one Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3956670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 maybe it's not dishonest, as it doesnt exactly state what it is, but it is bad business. WLK Oh no we definitely agree on that, dodgy business practice if ever I saw one Yea, I would hesitate to call it dishonest...maybe disingenuous. def bad. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3956712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Does Black Library have a customer service department that can be contacted? I wonder what they would say regarding Trial by Blood. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3956928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 This one doesn't so much annoy me as make me chuckle, but the Horus Heresy Wallpaper Collection: "This collection features 10 full sets of digital wallpapers taken from some of the most impressive covers of the Horus Heresy series." A more accurate description would be 10 digital wallpapers taken from all the limited edition covers of the Horus Heresy series (not that they aren't good covers, but that's all the collection is) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3957022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Trollslayer, Gilead’s Blood and at least one of the Jack Yeovil novels used exactly the same format as Trial by Blood. It's pretty common in genre fiction. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3957137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Trollslayer, Gilead’s Blood and at least one of the Jack Yeovil novels used exactly the same format as Trial by Blood. It's pretty common in genre fiction. That isn't the issue though. The problem people had with it was that the actual webpage advertising the "novel" made no mention of that fact and made it look like it was a brand new, fully-fledged novel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3958549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 When I said "exactly", I meant it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3959503 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retributis Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I just wish they would put "previously featured in..." or "Was previously available in X Format" when they do collections of short stories. More than once I've bought one of the collections and a couple of paragraphs in I've thought "this is eerily familiar" because I've either read or listened to it before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303610-black-librarys-approach-to-honesty/#findComment-3959598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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