Ptolemy Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I admit, I am confused. In addition, the guys I've spoken to about this are confused and we can't come to a consensus, "the most important rule" comes into effect. I really don't want to be "that guy" who has the obscure rule that no-one has an answer to and if I'm mistaken, I want to know so that I can stop cheating via misunderstanding. So here's my question and my reasons for being so confused on what I'm sure most of you are already saying "U wot?" about: How does Jink effect Relentless, in the case of bikers? Jink: "Some units favour speed and agility rather than heavy armour to keep them alive on the battlefield, dodging and weaving unscathed through hails of incoming fire." "...dodging and weaving..." Relentless: "Relentless models can shoot with Heavy, Salvo or Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons." "...counting as stationary..." This confuses me on a number of levels: Jink says that Jink occurs because the model has dodged or weaved and therefore must snap shot. That's fine. But Relentless says that models with relentless can fire Heavy, Salvo or Ordinance weapons counting as though they were stationary. If you're stationary, you can't reasonably dodge or weave. Does this mean that if you're relentless and you jink, you can fire Heavy, Salvo and Ordinance weapons at full BS? Space Marine bikes come equipped with twin-linked bolters, these are Rapid Fire weapons. Relentless does not say that Rapid Fire weapons fire "counting as stationary", it only says he may still charge. That's fine - if a biker Jinks, he must fire his twin-linked bolters at BS1. Not a problem. What if a biker has a Grav-Gun? The Grav-Gun is a Salvo weapon. Relentless specifically states that a model may fire a Salvo weapon "counting as stationary". If you're stationary, you didn't dodge or weave, does Jink apply? In fact it seems to me that Rapid Fire weapons were specifically left out of the rule to stop bikes from automatically jinking every time they're shot at. This sort of makes sense to me because if you're dodging and weaving to avoid enemy fire, your bike probably won't be facing the correct direction to accurately fire your bike-mounted bolters. However, I could very easily imagine a Space Marine jerking his bike to one side to avoid an artillery shell, while at the same time pivoting his body and blasting his Salvo Grav-gun at some Xenos. Going on my understanding of what the rules are telling me - if a biker jinks, their bike must snap shoot (because it's the rider that's relentless, not the bike?!). But if the rider has a Salvo weapon (and he might!), he may fire normally, because he's relentless. Thus, I am confused. Help? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303765-relentless-and-jink/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Well first off, ignore anything that is flavor text, like the descriptions of what the unit may be doing because it is irrelevant when it comes to rules. The reason Rapid Fire weapons aren't included in the "counts as stationary" bit is because they fire exactly the same regardless. However, you normally cannot charge when firing rapid fire weapons so they include it in Relentless so you can. Next we move onto Jink. Relentless does not override Jink to allow you to avoid snap shots. This is because Relentless only says that you count as being stationary. Being stationary doesn't matter for Jink because you can Jink even if the bikes didn't move the previous turn. In order for something to override snap shots in 7th, it must specifically say it does. Relentless does not, only that you can count as stationary(thereby avoiding having to snap fire because of moving with a heavy, salvo or ordnance weapon) Does that clear it up for you? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303765-relentless-and-jink/#findComment-3957646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 .... What? It's very clear... It fires as if stationary. Jink isn't a movement, it's a special rule with special drawbacks.. Unless you have a rule that specifically says that you can fire after a 'jink', you're snap shooting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303765-relentless-and-jink/#findComment-3957767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolemy Posted February 21, 2015 Author Share Posted February 21, 2015 Okay, so the flavour text says it's a movement, but you ignore flavour text, so it's not a movement. Got it. I think it's fairly understandable why this confusion occurred? It wasn't just me who was confused about it, so I don't feel too bad :P Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303765-relentless-and-jink/#findComment-3957848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Considering the way the new FAQ puts it I would be more inclined to twist the rules the other way. Relentless vehicles can't jink since they always count as stationary. That is, if you really want to play *that* game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303765-relentless-and-jink/#findComment-3958326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Considering the way the new FAQ puts it I would be more inclined to twist the rules the other way. Relentless vehicles can't jink since they always count as stationary. That is, if you really want to play *that* game. Well, all vehicles are Relentless. Also that argument(not that you are making it) holds no water as Jink does not require movement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303765-relentless-and-jink/#findComment-3958539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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