Newbie looking for help with Style of Army

[CommissarZac]

The infanrty/armor synergy is more helpfull than you think.  By keeping the tanks in your blobs the infantry protect the tanks from being assaulted.  And the Tanks act like the Big brother on the playground daring enemy units to come into range.  Meanwhile your "lesser" tanks are chipping away at the enemy while their attention is divided.


http://m5.paperblog.com/i/109/1098257/tmws-50-best-movies-of-2014-L-m5QJLP.jpeg

Perfect Armor/Infantry synergy.

[Meps]

Ye, i really like this idea. It leaves lots of variations open for who is equipped the deal with which threat and still works well with support elements.

A couple of follow up questions if you would.

1. If tucked behind a tank they cant see anything so cant fire at anything, obviously they can come out if in range - is there a particular weapon load out you find works?
- HWT useless if moving but orders can make them move and shoot
- Special weapons suffer from not being able to see
- Is barebones / maybe just a flamer a better option?
 

2. What ratio of troops to tanks do you find works. 

3. Say for example I had 20 men and a PCS tucked behind 1 tank. How would you best utilise the command structure and the PCS to gain the most utility and benefit from this situation
- Follow on foot also with 4x Special Weapons
- Be near enough in a chimera to issue orders and cause havoc of their own?

FLUFF WISE

How does a unit like this be explained fluff wise?
I guess 2 regiments combined into a combat brigade makes most sense - would you find an armoured regiment and an infantry regiment from the same planet?

[Father Mehman]

FLUFF WISE

How does a unit like this be explained fluff wise?

I guess 2 regiments combined into a combat brigade makes most sense - would you find an armoured regiment and an infantry regiment from the same planet?

I can only speak to this as I quit playing a bit ago. You can find Armour Regiments and Infantry Regiments from the same planet, but I believe it would be unlikely. The Imperium likes to make one planet do one thing (eg Agri-Planets only do farming and ranching, Hive Planets have, well, Hives with the population working at commerce, mining, promethium refining or drilling, and fabrication to some extent, etc). Sometimes, you'll find a planet that does two things really well and you'll have a Bi-trade Planet. Feel free to use that term.

If an Armour and Infantry Regiment both come from the same planet it would be a bit dicey politically, I'd figure. Take Cadia, for instance. It has both types of regiments and many different Kasr- if memory serves, they're like mega-sprawl cities that each have a different outlook on how things should be done for the planet and its interests. You'd have to be very careful in who is in which regiment due to them belonging to different Kasr. What if Kasr X doesn't really get on with Kasr Y?

Also, the regiments are set up in a way that no one person can take control of them (except for a Lord General or the like) so as to limit damage done if a revolt should occur. Time and time again, this has happened but Armour Regiments don't really fare well without Infantry Regiments and then there's the Artillery Regiments... Some Campaign Leaders go rogue, sure, and that's why we have Siege Regiments and the Adeptus Astartes .

Hope this has been helpful.

EDIT: Grammar

[CommissarZac]

 

 

A couple of follow up questions if you would.

 

1. If tucked behind a tank they cant see anything so cant fire at anything, obviously they can come out if in range - is there a particular weapon load out you find works?

To be quite honest I am not qualified to answer this.  I run Armor Heavy, so I only have 2 squads of 10 veterans in my whole list.  Backed up by 7 Leman Russes.

 

 

 

 

2. What ratio of troops to tanks do you find works

 

Again I find 90/10 in favor of tanks works best for me so I'm not one to help you there.

 

 

 

 

3. Say for example I had 20 men and a PCS tucked behind 1 tank. How would you best utilise the command structure and the PCS to gain the most utility and benefit from this situation

- Follow on foot also with 4x Special Weapons

- Be near enough in a chimera to issue orders and cause havoc of their own?

 

Again I merely use troops as meat shield for my tanks. lol so sorry.

 

 

 

 

Fluff wise: The beauty is You can make up your own fluff.  A combined arms regiment would be awesome.

[hendrik]

FLUFF WISE

How does a unit like this be explained fluff wise?

I guess 2 regiments combined into a combat brigade makes most sense - would you find an armoured regiment and an infantry regiment from the same planet?

 

 

 

 

 

dismounted armoured fist regiments from the same armoured regiment?

 

as for 2 regiments from the same planet meeting eachother on the same battlefield is a very rare situation, and if they do the chances are there is quite an age difference. Read up the codex entry about the imperial tides, and how those are raised. the codex is quite clear that after a regiment is raised the minitorum just 'randomly' decides what type of regiment they should be. Yes, it's logical they focus on the regiments strengths, but bureaucracy being bureaucracy this means nothing. had tanith not fallen i'm sure in X years there would have been a tanith armoured regiment, a tanith heavy regiment etc... the easiest option is to just make up two different regiments. their colourshemes could be similar,especially when talking about camouflage (heck in winter all will be wearing white fatigues except that stubborn regiment dressed up all red...), or even campaign bound.

note that this is just fluff, and that GW compeltly ignores it themselves when showing armies in the codex, but if you're going for a not too far fetched fluff, that doesn't require any big leaps the easiest is to make multiple regiments, each clearly having its own units.

modelingwise this means you can enjoy the opportunity to make some very distinct looking figures in one and the same force, say for instance the armoured vostroyan 256th , backed up by a catachan siege regiment while the cadian 916 light regiment advances forward ;) It's what i'm doing with my armoured cadian 812th, who are now fighting alongside a drop troop regiment (using elysian D99 rules). both have their distinct coloursheme and even their equipment is different!

[Meps]

Man this is agonising yet at the same time delightfully fun.

So many things / tactics i want to incorporate so few points and themes to incorporate them all together whilst remaining fluffy.

How do you guys decide  which direction you want to go in? Im struggling to even get my infantry finished as I keep thinking "but what if i want to equip them like this instead"

My own indecisiveness is killing me.

[hendrik]

I'm fielding an armoured regiment since these sort of get the best of everything in my opinion(russes,artillery and armoured fist platoons).note that you don't need to follow my advise. I'm merely repeating the codex but the guard beng the guard it just could happen that your regiment has a mix of everything,either obtained in an orthodox way or simply by looting it.most commanders don't go this far to use multiple regiments just because they joined a leman russ to their forces. Also certain elements can be temporarily joined to other regiments. Often these units are abhumans,siege elements etc but i belie they could be normal tanks too.(not 100%sure though)

[casb1965]

I'd agree with the earlier posts about the synergy between armour and infantry and liken AM to WW2 forces, you soften the opponent up with artillery/mortar strikes and then advance with armour and infantry supporting each other.

 

DKoK are the perfect example of that style of army.

[CommissarZac]

I decided my theme and army based around one model. The Leman Russ and as a tread head I was looking to put as many as i can in my lists.  Use what you like to flesh out your army.

[Thoqqu]

I've been running different kind of lists from completely static gunline to melee blobs advancing towards the enemy lead by Yarrick. I plan on adding atleast 1 demolisher and 2 battletanks taking me to 4 tanks and a deathstrike (It's not really a tank). I might add an other squadron of sentinels later and what I'm currently doing is putting together mortar squads. I dislike the idea of buying wyverns just to see them being nerfed in the next codex (we all know that it's going to happen...).

 

I somehow don't feel the need to get large amount of chimeras or tauroxes for now... but when I'm done with other parts I'm propably going to buy 2... and add on that depending how they perform.

 

Ps. I also just learned that there is a vortex missile squadron formation in warzone pandorax book and I _need_ to get 2 more deathstrike at some point! =)

Large blast vortexes all around! (it's not 10"... which is kinda sad...).

[WarriorFish]

You can do whatever you like with regiments. Maybe they raise an infantry regiment, or an armoured one. Maybe they merge the two together to form a new one. Maybe the planet forms a combined regiment from the outset, or the tanks are attached permanently. Who knows? The Imperium is a vast place and all sorts happens, so do what you want and justify it later ;)

 

For your supporting troops there is no magic number, but a rough guideline of an infantry squad per tank will give you enough troops to help protect them and engage the enemy if they get too close. Flamers make for good weapons here as you'd expect, never take a bare bones squad as even a cheap upgrade makes a big difference. I don't think of it as sticking the troops to the tank, more of them working together. If the situation calls for it the troops can fall back behind the tank or advance to intercept the enemy/take objectives. It's best to be flexible and respond to how the game is going rather than get bogged down in a specific plan.

[CommissarZac]

If I may ask, about how many points were you looking to make this list for?

[Meps]

1000pts to start so i have somehting to build towards and keep expanding from there

[wulfgar hammerfist]

The best advice that I can offer you is to just get out there and play. If you're gaming group is fairly relaxed then proxy the load out of your troops to see what you like. You can even practice your theories on your own by lining your troops up in different formations to check LOS, spacing, movement corridors, etc.

[varchilde]

Funnily enough I was going to write something similar to Wulfgar: play some games, and use proxies until you are happy with a load out that works for you.

 

I've been played my guard so far almost exclusively at 1000 points. I started with a CCS with mortar and banner that used to sit at the back with my 2 Autocannon infantry squads. That really didn't work for me; they CCS didn't kill much, the commander was very vulnerable and I felt there was always better targets for the orders than the AC squads.

 

So I swapped to a CCS with vox, and 3 meltas in a chimera that rides up front with my 2 plasma veteran squads (also in chimera). That's been working a lot better for me, and I only really determined it by playing.

[CommissarZac]

OK I think I have a list that's right up your ally

HQ: CCS
   w/Carapace Armor for commander,  Power fist for commander, Medi pack, Heavy flamer and 2 meltas, with a Tarox with a camo net = 200pts

Troops: Infantry Platoon
PCS: w/medi pack, heavy flamer, 2 flamers, power fist for Sgt, = 90pts

Inf. Sqd 1
w/flamer = 55pts

Inf. Sqd 2
w/flamer = 55pts

Conscripts = 60pts

Veteran Squad
w/Vox = 65pts

Tank Commander
w/pask, punisher tank, vanquisher tank, las cannon for Vanq, Heavy bolters for Punisher, Heavy stubber for Punisher = 400pts

Hydra
w/Dozer blade = 75pts

Total points = 1000

This list will allow you to be a primarily infantry army with armor support.  The blob of 20 conscripts is gonna allow you to flood the field with bodies, not to mention shield your armor while your inf. squads go and claim objectives.  I gave them all Taroxs instead of Chimera because of the Tarox's twin linked auto cannons.  They pack more punch than a heavy bolter or multi-lazer.  The tanks are gonna do all I told you earlier.  And the Hydra should keep pesky flyers from disturbing your battle.  Recomend keeping the tanks in the middle of the blob of conscripts so as to soften any would be assaults.

[Meps]

Thanks for the effort Zac i aprreciate it. Im not able to give it the attention is deserves and fully look over it for a day or 2 but will give it a proper look and some thought very shortly.

Thank you for the effort

! first thaught. is this a legal list? It only has 1 troops choice. I thaught i needed atleast 2 troop choices?

[WarriorFish]

You're right, that's missing a Troop choice in order to be a legal FOC list. There are many ways to skin a xeno, especially in our bountiful codex so the best thing is to decide on what you'd like to start with and go from there. For a mechanised company I'd pick the Chimera over the Taurox as the line transport, some supporting Taurox to fit in would be ok but I don't think it cuts it as the main feature without numbers.

[CommissarZac]

Thank you for showing me my oversight, List has been corrected.

[Meps]

OK ive had some time to reflect, thank you for your inputs

So for 1000 pts starting army im considering taking 2 leman russes then try to squeeze in about 80 guys + some additional support, I figure this will be a nightmare for most to deal with at this point level.

I was thinking the first

Vanquisher, Lascannon, Multi-Melta's, 165pts
Not sure on the multi-meltas, it could be overkill but I think it gives me extra firepower to make sure i kill something that gets dangerously close and allows me to shoot at Termies or heavy/superheavy infantry with a few more shots that again could be dangerously close.

 

Now I need ideas for my second tank.
Battle tank - seems expensive for only being able to fire 1 weapon at full BS - but lets me keep it as it comes at 150pts
Exterminator - This seems ok, but 4 twin-linkked autocannons doesnt quite seem threatening enough, not sure if any upgrades synergise that well either, heavy bolter sponsons could be ok, but wasted if firing at armour but 10AP4 shots isn't to be shunned.
Eradicator - Not a huge fan of this, the ignore cover is great but with me having infantry close by, an order and some flamer can handle cover saves on anything with a low enough armour save to consider using a cover save.
Demolisher - Same problem as battle tank but more expensive so a solid no i think
Punisher - I like the idea of this unit, is it viable without pask? I dont think i can spare the 70 points needed to take pasks considering I want to take a CCS for the senior orders for my infantry.
Executioner -  I dont like the idea of plasma, especially on a tank that it so hard to take down its seems stupid giving away hull points, and considering you take 3 tests a turn your gonna take a couple over the game.

So im thinking its either battletank, Exterminator or Punisher, obviously a second vanquisher would be reduntant

A  note on pask: I dont think i can afford him, as i move to 1500 i may add him, but at 1000pts it would mean putting my tanks in a squadron clumping all my units together, and spending 210-230 points nearly 1/4 of by points on 1 tank seems a little too much.

 

[Meps]

I say obviously a second Vanquisher is redundant... but is it?  Could multiple vanquishers work?

[CommissarZac]

I would recommend relooking at the list I made.   This will allow you to bring 60 men and the Vanq and Pask with the Punisher.  The las cannon for the Vanq is more than enough since it will be in the same squadron as pask.  So any threats can be nutralized by pask.  In the meantime while your CCS is giving orders to your troops Pask will be giving your tanks orders that will allow them to either split fire, move up to 18", or shoot and pop smoke for cover.  I really recommend looking at this list again.  

[varchilde]

Meps, I quite like the idea of 2 Vanqs in a list. The problem with a solo Vanq as I see it, is the BS3 and the relatively small number of shots the tank puts out. Even with AP2 the odds of scoring a "one shot kill" on a tank (i.e. an explodes) are quite low, so hull point stripping tends to be the most effective means of killing vehicles.

 

(That plus the Vanqs are a really good answer to MCs, and heavy infantry...)

[Hellios]

I don't think fluff is a problem. There are loads of ways to explain most things when it comes to the IG.

 

I've certainly used heavy tanks to protect squishy infantry. I used to run Demolisher squadrons (That often want to advanced due to short range on their weapons) with rough riders hiding behind them. But you could do the same thing with footsloggers, or even mechanized infantry.

 

I think it is useful to imagine what you'll be fighting against. In a general all comers list you want to be ready to take anything, but some tailoring to your group is okay. It's even possible to have some weaknesses in your army that you'll have to work around. Remember that even if you take the same list you might change your tactics based on your foe, and if you are playing Eternal War, or Maelstrom missions. 

 

How will you fight if you want to be static (including compact, and dispersed deployments). How will you fight if you need to be mobile (compact and dispersed formations).

 

How will you deal with CHOPPA based armies? How will you deal with DAKKA based armies?

 

How will you deal with armies that have 150 models in 1,500pts? How will you deal with low model count, elite armies (Terminators, monstrous creatures, battle suits, bikes).

 

How will you deal with armour heavy lists, possibly with everything mechanized?

 

How will you deal with lists that get up into your face really quickly? Maybe droppods coming in and trying to take out key units. Or an army with lots of infiltrating units that will only give you one two turns of shooting before they are in a position to be a serious threat.

[Meps]

@CommisarZac,  
 ive not dismissed your list (with a few alterations) i am simply looking for an effective solution that doesn't involve pask at 1000pts. You make a good case for him, and at 1500pts+ I will include him most likely along with a 3rd russ. My problem is simply, I want to be able to use each tank in a different area of the board at the same time, them being in a squadron doesn't let me do this because having to keep in coherancy. I cant deny how fantastic pask is, he just seems to take away from the style I want to play, at this points bracket atleast. 1500 is a whole different story.


@Varchilde:
 I think the benefit of 2 Vanq's is huge.  Lighter armour is almost guaranteed dead, especially with support from chimeras and other support i plan to bring. Bigger armour, whilst not being glanced to death in a turn can be shut down with crew stunned/immobilised results and the occasional explode. This allows me to remove a good amount of mobility and tactical option away from my opponent.

My major concern is not having anything to shoot at, but going over all the armies i cant see an army that would not bring MC's / Heavy Infantry / Vehicles / Transports of some description or an expensive HQ asking to be instakilled. A huge weakness I guess would be facing skimmers, anything with skimmers would totally neutralise the effectivness of 2 vanqs close in at lightning pace and totally scupper my plans.