Happy-inquisitor Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Just thought it was worth pointing to some stats that have been put together from the LVO http://www.torrentoffire.com/6683/lvo-army-statistics It would appear that the knights of Titan are not only competitive but just pipped Chaos Daemons to the top spot of winning percentage. I suspect that Draigo will have played a big part in that with some grav centurions for company but we will see when people start to report in more detail. The tournament is not over and there is one GK player in the top 8 and still playing. So much for all the anti-Xenos feeling! The dreaded Eldar tied with Dark Angels for win percentage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 It's a centstar list, though I'm sure the dreadknights and draigo have been pulling their weight. It's very similar to the list I run and it's quite nasty Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3959011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEric Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 What's a centstar? Is it the centurions with tigurius for prescience? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3959021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 What does the "occurrences" mean? . And the centstar is draigo being a taxi for some centurions, with a librarian or 2 casting invisibility and such. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3959048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 draigo is a bit more useful than just providing gate. While the censtar is brutal against those who aren't prepared for it, in a tournament of this size, it's impressive it made it into the finals. The list really has a hard time against armies with a lot of warp charges, as a gate deny can cause you to lose a whole turn of crucial shooting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3959168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Like the others have said, Draigo+Grav-Centurions is really what is going on there, plus Dreadknights. They do 90% of the work of any list they are in, and they are the threat. The token Terminators etc might as well not exist for all they matter, really. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3959267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEric Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 It somehow bothers me that the best lists from the precious codex and editions, when grey knights were one of the strongest factions, the list always seem to feature coteaz and henchmen and now the strongest lista include centurions. I guess what bothers me is that grey knights were never the strongest but first the inquisition and now allies :) I guess I shouldn't be too judgemental though as I'm cooking up a tournament list myself based on grey knights with ultramarine allies and yes, it contains a unit of centurions. The rules of this tournament downgrades all allies to allies of convenience though so no cent-star with draigo which I think is good. If I got to choose the rules for a tournament, I'd ban all allies and all special characters :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3959298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 It somehow bothers me that the best lists from the precious codex and editions, when grey knights were one of the strongest factions, the list always seem to feature coteaz and henchmen and now the strongest lista include centurions. I guess what bothers me is that grey knights were never the strongest but first the inquisition and now allies I'll agree that Cotez and Henchmen provided a cheap and plentiful source of firepower and scoring (which we sorely lack nowadays, along with changes to our vehicles and HP being introduced killing mech armies that aren't xenos). But Dreadknights, Purifiers and Paladins were strong in 5th, and only one of those has dropped off the radar. If anything DK's are more powerful now, as their cost went down and their guns improved substantially. Purifiers are also arguably better, as are our Terminators. I guess I shouldn't be too judgemental though as I'm cooking up a tournament list myself based on grey knights with ultramarine allies and yes, it contains a unit of centurions. The rules of this tournament downgrades all allies to allies of convenience though so no cent-star with draigo which I think is good. If I got to choose the rules for a tournament, I'd ban all allies and all special characters Great, so xenos just auto-win? What a great plan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3959359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I understand banning allies, but banning characters is a bit harsh. It would make the Tau Enclave useless (I believe) and people like to show off their models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3959362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I understand banning allies, but banning characters is a bit harsh. It would make the Tau Enclave useless (I believe) and people like to show off their models. Neither do anything, except satisfy the weird hatred some people develop towards certain combos. I mean, come on. Draigo+Cents isn't even winning tournaments consistently. If Draigo didn't exist people would probably forget we exist in 40k. We're that fringe now to the meta. Banning Allies makes a lot of Imperial armies insta-trash, but it does nothing to xenos or Daemons. Banning characters has even less impact on the meta than banning Allies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3959389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaoticEric Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Great, so xenos just auto-win? What a great plan. You really are Ordo Xeons, aren't you? :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3959749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I transferred ;) Seriously though, banning Allies or SC's doesn't affect xenos at all, it just accentuates their power over other armies (who might rely on such things to stay relevant). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3960282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Amen. The system aint perfect but it's built on the premise of allies. Remove that and the result is ugly and predictable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3961240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Nothing is as ugly as the Supreme Grandmaster of the Grey Knights shuttling around a unit of those offensively hideous Centurions. If it takes banning allies to get rid of that abomination then I'm all for it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3966818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionicman Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 No need to write a balanced book if we can have unique characters (and allies). Its always Draigo, Tiggy, Belakor, Pask,... Play without UCMs and you truly see how messed up 40k is nowadays. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3967006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Nothing is as ugly as the Supreme Grandmaster of the Grey Knights shuttling around a unit of those offensively hideous Centurions. If it takes banning allies to get rid of that abomination then I'm all for it. (shrug) It's not even the most obnoxious combo in 40k man. Look at Thunderwolf Cavarly. In a pure SW list, they can put a stupid tough Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf in rune armour out front to tank massed fire with his 2+ armour. Stormhammers still rek Grav-Centurions just fine, as do Necron Wraiths. No need to write a balanced book if we can have unique characters (and allies). Its always Draigo, Tiggy, Belakor, Pask,... Play without UCMs and you truly see how messed up 40k is nowadays. Yeah I'll notice how my army is completely crippled beyond words, yet xenos are even more dominant. What fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3967082 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I'm still having a blast playing pure GK (or GK+IK), based around Draigo, Liber Libby, GKT, and DKs, bouncing around dropping pie-plates, hosing down the unwashed masses with Bolter and holy Prometheum, playing "kill the daemon" while actually playing to the mission. What other army can legitimately claim to be holding back the Dark Tide? It is what we do, and we do it with style! SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3967392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Yeah but what if you weren't allowed Knight-Titan Allies? Or Allies at all? Different story. We're primarily designed as an Ally codex. It's so incredibly obvious from our unit choices and special rules. You bring us for melee threat and as a hard-counter to Daemons (one of the few armies we actually stomp face against). I wish it wasn't the case, but its what GW has decided. Same for Inquisition too, they're no more a real army than we are. Take Draigo. He screams 'attach me to something you don't want to die'. Nothing in our army wants to tag-team with him, save maybe Purifiers. Everyone else can deliver themselves via Deepstrike or Shunt moves, so 'Gate' is irrelevant. But for Centurions, or even Stormhammers? Hell, imagine the rage you'd experience attaching him to a unit of Thunderwolves. Actually, come to think of it, Draigo is meant to attach to Paladins, but GW made Paladins absurdly overpriced so no dice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3967893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Actually RD, I said I play pure GK (or GK+IK), not just GK+IK. And I don't take Paladins or Purifiers. Draigo is just raw fun, as is a Sanctic focused Liber Libby. GKT are awesome, and so are Intercrptors. DreadKnights go without saying. I very much enjoy the NSF detachment, which fits my play style nicely. No allies? No problem! In point of fact, I'm quite fond of the Highlander format, yet am still okay with running a CAD. However, I don't run my GK as Allies, because it just does not feel right to me. Running them with Imperial Knights? Sure thing, because Knights are Knights, be they Grey or Imperial. Running them with Centurians? Borrowed Drop Pods? Not so much. Running them with Harlequins? Actually, that's fluffy, as they are both guardians of the Black Library, and fill the same role within their respective cultures. Too bad I'm still not interested in running Killer Space Clowns. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3968431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy-inquisitor Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 I understand banning allies, but banning characters is a bit harsh. It would make the Tau Enclave useless (I believe) and people like to show off their models. Neither do anything, except satisfy the weird hatred some people develop towards certain combos. I mean, come on. Draigo+Cents isn't even winning tournaments consistently. If Draigo didn't exist people would probably forget we exist in 40k. We're that fringe now to the meta As Grey Knights came out of the LVO with the highest win percentage I think that is more to do with players lack of understanding than anything wrong with the codex itself for tournament situations. It is hard to see why GK are fringe when they are doing pretty well in big tournaments and torrent of fire seem to show them as consistent strong contenders since the new codex dropped. I almost think that the constant net hate might be a factor, it is hard to see any objective reasons. Of course.the relative rarity may be helping GK players, if they became more common then so would the counters to them be more popular in opposing lists. Not that anyone should get too hung up on chasing the meta, the two top lists at LVO were consciously counter-meta and defied the "find the best unit in the codex and take lots" approach to list building. Players were so busy countering the best units and combos they did not have a good answer to lictors or scouts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3968508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 GKs were almost exclusively just enablers of other busted things.. and warp charge batteries for psychically fueled deathstars. The top lists are subtle but they are power builds in their own right each. They are basically the epitome of the meta. The evolution of tried and tested lists built for advantage in ITC missions. Edit- theres nothing wrong with the parts that work, so to speak. But those are few so its definitely not stand alone territory like eldar/tau/crons/SM. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3968554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 n point of fact, I'm quite fond of the Highlander format, yet am still okay with running a CAD. However, I don't run my GK as Allies, because it just does not feel right to me. Running them with Imperial Knights? Sure thing, because Knights are Knights, be they Grey or Imperial. Running them with Centurians? Borrowed Drop Pods? Not so much. I hate Highlander beyond words, so I guess we'll just agree to disagree. CAD is doing it wrong as well IMO, but YMMV. Same for Knight-Titans, it's too many points in one meltable basket. It is hard to see why GK are fringe when they are doing pretty well in big tournaments and torrent of fire seem to show them as consistent strong contenders since the new codex dropped. I almost think that the constant net hate might be a factor, it is hard to see any objective reasons. Of course.the relative rarity may be helping GK players, if they became more common then so would the counters to them be more popular in opposing lists. Bring me actual statistics and we can debate them. Anecdotes don't count, nor do vague sweeping statements about how we place in the middle or bottom tiers. Yes, but so do Sisters and Orks. Are they winning tournaments? No. Not that anyone should get too hung up on chasing the meta, the two top lists at LVO were consciously counter-meta and defied the "find the best unit in the codex and take lots" approach to list building. Players were so busy countering the best units and combos they did not have a good answer to lictors or scouts. Again, don't read too much into one tournament result. No game of 40k is certain, and mission objectives and crazy random happenings can swing games. But that's not a good approach to list-building. 40k is all about flattening the curve, so your army performs as consistently as you can manage. That's why ignoring aspects of the game (cover saves, armour saves etc) is so powerful and limited, and why re-rolling anything usually comes with a big price premium. GKs were almost exclusively just enablers of other busted things.. and warp charge batteries for psychically fueled deathstars. The top lists are subtle but they are power builds in their own right each. They are basically the epitome of the meta. The evolution of tried and tested lists built for advantage in ITC missions. Edit- theres nothing wrong with the parts that work, so to speak. But those are few so its definitely not stand alone territory like eldar/tau/crons/SM. Exactly. We're the Ally codex you bring in for psychic support, Dreadknights and Draigo. We're propping up other Imperial forces, not ourselves. Xenos don't need any of that. Tau, Eldar and Necrons all have pure builds (the former two CAD, the latter Decurion stupidity) that crush face with zero need for Allies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3968702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Nothing is as ugly as the Supreme Grandmaster of the Grey Knights shuttling around a unit of those offensively hideous Centurions. If it takes banning allies to get rid of that abomination then I'm all for it. (shrug) It's not even the most obnoxious combo in 40k man. Look at Thunderwolf Cavarly. In a pure SW list, they can put a stupid tough Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf in rune armour out front to tank massed fire with his 2+ armour. Stormhammers still rek Grav-Centurions just fine, as do Necron Wraiths. 40K is a dud game. It's broken and the rules are sloppy. The only redeeming feature it has is the beer-and-pretzels appeal where I can get together with some mates and have a laugh as our toy soldiers blow each other up. As a result, aesthetic and theme are very important to me and game-play and on-table performance are less so. I still want to win, but not at the expense of my theme or the look of my army. That's why the centstar (and Centurions in general) is so abhorrent to me. There should never be a circumstance where Draigo decides to forsake his brothers to taxi around a group of Centurions. And don't get me started on Purifiers catching a lift in a SW or BA drop pod. Just no. Allies should be used to boost an armies theme and aesthetic, not just to get a boost on the table top. 40K isn't a good enough game that I can get a kick from playing it to win like that, it just breaks too easily. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3968982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 ^ very good sum of what recent GW policy is ;"quantity (of sales) over quality (of rules)"..that has turned 40k into...next gen "Snakes n Ladders" . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3969038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 The sad thing is, it's the non-competetive players that are bashing the game as it stands today, while the players that actually play competetively are enjoying a renaissance in the game. As I always say, if you think this is not the game for you, you are right. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303826-grey-knights-at-the-lvo/#findComment-3969054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.