Grey knights at the LVO

[IndigoJack]

You are aware that Loth only had two wounds right? A few bad rolls are all it takes for him to go down, not to mention the threat of perils. Loth might be durable, but I wouldn't use him as a tank.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You are aware that Loth only had two wounds right? A few bad rolls are all it takes for him to go down, not to mention the threat of perils. Loth might be durable, but I wouldn't use him as a tank. 

 

(shrug) It's not likely though. You're talking about a T7 dude with 2+ invul and 4+ FNP. Plus you can Look Out Sir! onto whatever unit you take him with. 

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

See the issue? Divination fixes our low damage output by making it very reliable, negates cover, buffs saves against AP2, makes your army Rend when they gang up on a single target (which we commonly do, due to our low unit count), and lastly makes your psyker a great tank. Telepathy does none of those things, instead it offers some hexes that can be negated by high Leadership, Stubborn and/or re-rolls to Ld tests, a mind-bullet that again is pretty random, and the best defensive tech in the game but Tau can get around it. 

 

 

Seriously, if you are happy winning games against Tau with Divination then carry right on. No need to change if it is working for you and your list.

 

I personally get more utility out of the Telepathy powers than you do and only regard Hallucination as a complete duff. Range is not a hindrance, if my deep strike lands me further away than that I am in a ton of trouble already. Against a Tau list with Ethereal or the Talisman (or both) I would just change things round and use a different set of powers.

 

p.s. i do not find shrouded as bad as everyone else seems to - it forces each Tau unit to use twice as many marker lights to be effective which halves the number of units that shoot effectively. Tau do not have unlimited marker light sources and they are my top target priority in the shooting phase - they are typically the only thing with poor enough resilience that my shooting can properly hurt them assuming I shunted to avoid the tanking commander. For one point and buffing multiple units I am quite happy with it.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I personally get more utility out of the Telepathy powers than you do and only regard Hallucination as a complete duff. Range is not a hindrance, if my deep strike lands me further away than that I am in a ton of trouble already. Against a Tau list with Ethereal or the Talisman (or both) I would just change things round and use a different set of powers.

 

Most Tau have an Ethereal now. They're cheap, their powers make Fire Warriors really scary (especially trying to charge them...3x pulse shots each is crazy), and it fixes Leadership (their only real weakness besides melee). Talisman is okay, I see it sometimes if people run Farsight lists. Range can be an issue if they can zone you using their infantry and tanks, even with Deepstrike you may not be close enough. 

p.s. i do not find shrouded as bad as everyone else seems to - it forces each Tau unit to use twice as many marker lights to be effective which halves the number of units that shoot effectively. Tau do not have unlimited marker light sources and they are my top target priority in the shooting phase - they are typically the only thing with poor enough resilience that my shooting can properly hurt them assuming I shunted to avoid the tanking commander. For one point and buffing multiple units I am quite happy with it.

 

You are aware that if the psyker dies, the power turns off right? They only need to Ignore Cover on the psyker and his unit, then hit them with Riptides/Broadsides etc. 

 

Also, regarding markerlights, Tau usually bring at least 2 units who do it, sometimes 3 (if you wanna include Skyrays, which I do). They can also JSJ with marker drones, which not only extends their range, it also means they can get behind a friendly Devilfish or LOS blocking terrain to hide from your guns. And in the unlikely event the Tau player makes a mistake and puts the unit in a position to get shot, the Buff Commander is always closest model, typically with 2+ armour and 5+ FNP. It's not like they're not aware how hated their marker units are. 

[Quozzo]

 

You are aware that Loth only had two wounds right? A few bad rolls are all it takes for him to go down, not to mention the threat of perils. Loth might be durable, but I wouldn't use him as a tank. 

 

(shrug) It's not likely though. You're talking about a T7 dude with 2+ invul and 4+ FNP. Plus you can Look Out Sir! onto whatever unit you take him with. 

 

The thing about LoS! is that it happens before rolling saves, so you either tank wounds and non of your unit dies with the slim chance of taking an unsaved wound, or you pass the wound along and the unfortunate meatshield will probably fail his saves. Then there's always the chance of failing LoS!

[Brom MKIV]

I personally avoid tanking on loth at all costs. Perils usually does him in all on its own so I can't risk even a single wound. 

 

While its true that shrouded can cost them marker lights the problem is giving them the choice because it costs us warp charge and if they got a buffmander its blanked.

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

While its true that shrouded can cost them marker lights the problem is giving them the choice because it costs us warp charge and if they got a buffmander its blanked.

 

All of that is true and whether you can afford to throw warp charge at it depends on the kind of list you are running, with Inquisitors along I am usually not too short of warp charge. Tau want an optimal balance of markerlights and shooting to stop the imminent charge, the GK army has one psychic phase and one shooting phase to upset and disrupt that balance as best it can to mitigate the damage.

 

Personally I love the flexibility of having so many psykers on the table and eschew any rigid doctrine; clearly others believe they have perfectly honed their list and their tactics and are not interested in any alternatives. Which is fine, if it works for them. That flexibility comes with the price of randomness but with so many rolls on the tables I find the dice usually even out well enough for me to have something viable to do.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The thing about LoS! is that it happens before rolling saves, so you either tank wounds and non of your unit dies with the slim chance of taking an unsaved wound, or you pass the wound along and the unfortunate meatshield will probably fail his saves. Then there's always the chance of failing LoS!

 

It's a judgement call. But I'm usually comfortable taking the wounds on Loth. 2+ invul is absurd, especially when T7 means a lot of attacks simply won't even wound him anyway. And he still has 4+ FNP as a backup if he fails his invul. 

I personally avoid tanking on loth at all costs. Perils usually does him in all on its own so I can't risk even a single wound. 

 

Eh, he's a high risk high reward hero. Either he eats half the enemy army and is an unstoppable juggernaut, or he blows himself up with Perils haha. Actually kinda balances him, being only 2 wounds. Imagine if he had 3 or 4...urgh. 

Personally I love the flexibility of having so many psykers on the table and eschew any rigid doctrine; clearly others believe they have perfectly honed their list and their tactics and are not interested in any alternatives. Which is fine, if it works for them. That flexibility comes with the price of randomness but with so many rolls on the tables I find the dice usually even out well enough for me to have something viable to do.

 

Well the thing is, once your psykers start dying (Inquisition aren't renowned for their durability, especially not against Tau), you lose all that WC advantage. Telepathy requires a lot of luck and things going your way. Divination by comparison is far more reliably at doing something to help your army, and it doesn't care about matchups as much (very few of it's powers are going to be useless against Marines say, or Tyranids etc). Telepathy basically requires an enemy army with no access to Stubborn, ATSKNF, Fearless etc and Leadership ideally in the 7-8 range. 

[IndigoJack]

Loth is T7, but it's still majority toughness, so most small arms are still wounding him on 4s and 5s

[Happy-inquisitor]

Well the thing is, once your psykers start dying (Inquisition aren't renowned for their durability, especially not against Tau), you lose all that WC advantage. Telepathy requires a lot of luck and things going your way. Divination by comparison is far more reliably at doing something to help your army, and it doesn't care about matchups as much (very few of it's powers are going to be useless against Marines say, or Tyranids etc). Telepathy basically requires an enemy army with no access to Stubborn, ATSKNF, Fearless etc and Leadership ideally in the 7-8 range.

Strangely enough I don't roll on telepathy vs armies like that. No rigid doctrine, roll on the tables that best suit the match-up. It is a bit of a glass cannon but reinventing your army every game is not boring or repetitive.

[Brom MKIV]

I'll add that one of the more subtle perks of generating shriek is how it can effect your opponents choices.

Just having shriek can make the tau player think twice about nova charging their ion accelerators. Obviously any ap2 in significant volume will do this but in pure GKs there isn't much outside of psych or ravens.

The reason this matters is because of interceptor. If theres no reason to need a 3++ (non ID rending doesn't count) then they're gonna drop a pie plate on you simple as that and str 8 ruins tanking GMs.

However if your running massed grav/las/plas OR rending + psilencers they can't afford to leave their suits open to armour ignoring firepower. 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Loth is T7, but it's still majority toughness, so most small arms are still wounding him on 4s and 5s 

 

Ah, forgot about majority Toughness. Still, it means he shrug off lascannon just as well as small arms, and his 2+ invul and 4+ FNP means he can tank both kinds of firepower exceptionally well (better than Draigo). 

Strangely enough I don't roll on telepathy vs armies like that. No rigid doctrine, roll on the tables that best suit the match-up. It is a bit of a glass cannon but reinventing your army every game is not boring or repetitive. 

 

Why roll on it at all? Divination is straight up better, regardless of matchup. 

Just having shriek can make the tau player think twice about nova charging their ion accelerators. Obviously any ap2 in significant volume will do this but in pure GKs there isn't much outside of psych or ravens.

 

I've literally never seen them nova-charge the ion accelerator. The HBC all the time, because that's why you take it. More commonly, they either do 3+ invul (if they expect to get shot with AP2 at all), or they turn on double-shot for their secondary (if they expect to kill you in the Shooting phase). You really shouldn't base your strategy around assumptions about how your opponent will react. That's just a recipe for failure. 

The reason this matters is because of interceptor. If theres no reason to need a 3++ (non ID rending doesn't count) then they're gonna drop a pie plate on you simple as that and str 8 ruins tanking GMs.

 

You do understand that the ion accelerator has its S8 AP2 blast mode normally, right? The only thing nova-charging does is make it S9 and Ordnance, that's it. 

[Brom MKIV]

Ya i glossed the blasts options base strength. I'm mis remembering my last encounter then. It was probably the secondary weapon they were charging, I was thinking the accel.

[Ishagu]

I find a lot of complaining in this topic rather funny, especially in regards to Tau.

They are a strong army but not what they used to be.

Grey Knights are badly matched against them, true, but something as simple as shunting two Interceptor squads up and incinerating their pathfinders tends to really decrease the Tau's ability to deal damage - you'd be surprised how many players don't focus on them early. Tactical Objectives that require any sort of movement also hurt the Tau greatly.

 

As for people complaining that competitive armies aren't fluffy - some lists aren't something you'd read about in a Codex, but others fit the lore well.

 

40k is actually undergoing a bit of a renaissance - more players and growing exposure in recent months, and frankly GW is putting out some really great stuff at the moment.

[Adeptus]

I really liked the last few Marine codexes. It looked like they were going to really pull all the factions back into line, but then they went and dropped the ball on the Necrons.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Grey Knights are badly matched against them, true, but something as simple as shunting two Interceptor squads up and incinerating their pathfinders tends to really decrease the Tau's ability to deal damage - you'd be surprised how many players don't focus on them early.

 

Assuming they even field Pathfinders. The die-hards do, but most have switched to Marker Drones to conteract that exact issue. They hide behind terrain, then jump out in the Shooting phase, then jetpack back behind terrain. Also, if the Tau bring Devilfish, they can simply block your shooting angle so you can't get the flamer into range (the only real threat, as storm bolter alone won't kill them off). Kroot and Fire Warriors can also be sacrificed to achieve the same goal. Or they put the marker drones behind their Broadsides/Riptide so again, you can't BBQ them. 

Tactical Objectives that require any sort of movement also hurt the Tau greatly.

 

Based on what? Their battlesuits (the exception being Broadsides) have fantastic mobility, and their infantry are usually either Infiltrating or mechanised in Devilfish. They also have fast stuff like Piranhas, drones and Tetras. Maelstrom is biased in favour of shooting armies anyway. You can't generate free VP's if you're dead. 

As for people complaining that competitive armies aren't fluffy - some lists aren't something you'd read about in a Codex, but others fit the lore well.

 

40k is actually undergoing a bit of a renaissance - more players and growing exposure in recent months, and frankly GW is putting out some really great stuff at the moment. 

 

It's more just people getting into the latest codex releases. Anyone still stuck with a bad 7th update (or still stuck in 6th with the same issue) still has problems. Xenos being top dog is a big change though. 

I really liked the last few Marine codexes. It looked like they were going to really pull all the factions back into line, but then they went and dropped the ball on the Necrons.

 

Well they had to shill the hell out of Necrons, otherwise no new player would touch them. Also, the super-heavy kits weren't selling, so they ported them into normal 40k via the Decurion. It's actually depressing how pushed the whole army is now. Nothing got worse at all (even the price hikes don't matter), and some of their stupidest offenders got buffed (Wraiths are the best assault unit in the game now, no contest). 

[21stPrimarch]

Had to weigh in here. Nothing got worse? Mindshackle scarabs reduced to worthless, every named character (aside from the crypteks) got major nerfs, and the only one worth running is Zahndrek and even thats debatable. Most of the stuff stayed the same unit wise, except they got what every player wants, worthless units made viable, and scary units toned down. A barge and scythe spam is done, but they are still usable for example. Honestly, wraiths confound the ever loving crap out of me. Why a book with so many well written units would they buff the main unit that needed toning down. I am more peeved about that than the named characters going down the toilet. The unfortunate thing here, is that most people will never see the awesome creative lists that could be written because all other cron players will see is 18 wraiths. At least my gaming group wont suffer that, as crons are one of my armies. This wasnt meant to be argumentative, just wanted to educate. Inflection is lost in text so I just wanted to throw that in there. Sorry for being off topic, but hey, now my GK brothers might no more about crons. Thanks for reading

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Mindshackle scarabs reduced to worthless

 

>laughingwraiths.jpeg

every named character (aside from the crypteks) got major nerfs, and the only one worth running is Zahndrek and even thats debatable. 

 

Zandrek is absurd now. Oh hey, free Warlord traits, whenever I like, whatever I like. The others were never that big a deal anyway, and largely haven't changed. WIth 4+ 'lol I'm not dead' rolls anyway, they're actually harder to kill. Trollzyn is absurd now. 

Most of the stuff stayed the same unit wise

 

>army wide special snowflake 4+ 'I'm not dead' roll

>Overlord has a 're-roll that 1 buddy, you're not dead' aura

>Wraiths got STRONGER

>C'Tan are actually scary now, especially Transcendant

>new army build is FORMATIONS TILL THE STARS END, free buffs for days, Force Org is for lesser younger races

I could keep going. I mean, even the price hikes on things like Annhilation Barges don't even matter. Now they cost the same as Predator, instead of the same as a Landspeer. Hooray, game balance. 

scary units toned down.

 

Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of all vehicles being dead forever due to GAUSS, and that's their basic infantry unit. Also, Wraiths were one of the premier assault units of the last codex, and they got buffed. 

The unfortunate thing here, is that most people will never see the awesome creative lists that could be written because all other cron players will see is 18 wraiths. 

 

Do we own the same Necron codex? Because I swear you've created a time portal to the past, where you still are reading their 5th edition book. Which, I will not contest, is still amazing and brought the army from 'lol Sisters beat you on a regular basis' to 'oh wow nothing ever dies and I'm shot off table every game by extra fun Tesla procs'. 

 

The new 7th edition book is broken. Utterly broken. Decurion puts it into 'Ludicrous Speed' territory, but even with CAD or Allied detachments, where are the drawbacks GW? Why would I not take 20-man Warrior blobs, now the best infantry in the game? Why would I not take Wraiths, the best assault unit in the game? Why would I not take any of the insane super-heavies, which are now legal in regular 40k without even the token 'I'm a Lord of War' restriction if taken as Formations?