HelBrute: A discussion and Analysis

[Khornestar]

Just google search, it won't take long to find the details.

 

I always loved the idea of the murderpack, each equipped with a lascannon and missile launcher. Behind an ADL for some saves. Since they're a squadron and you can allocate wounds, and since you can choose the result on the crazed table, you can double-shoot those big guns and get immobilized. Then, since they were part of a squadron, those immobilized brutes would become their own units, allowing them to fire at separate targets. As long as the brute champ is alive, you can continue to choose the crazed result.

 

Now, I've never actually tried this out, but it sounds like it would either be hilariously good or hilariously awful. Great fun, either way. Mind you, it is a 675 point formation, when used that way.

[Targetlock]

yeah i got the dataslate, the murderpack looks like fun (especially double shot mode hehe) and also the helcult looks entertaining, fun way to use cultists and keep the helbrute alive too :)

[Bearingtheword]

 

Edit 3: Looks like it answers Inquisitor Quidham's question, since we only roll on it if the Helbrute has taken a glancing or pen hit. So if you are starting them in reserves they aren't likely to have taken a glance or pen yet....

If iirc, the old Crazed was an auto roll every turn, whereas now it is only if we are damaged....still sucks but better than it was...

The mayhem pack have a special rule that makes them roll on the crazed table every turn, and apply the result to all three.

 

 

 

My bad...Thought we were talking in general ;)

 

~BtW

[Kaldoth]

So, here's a bit of a review on the Mayhem pack. I did a bit of playtesting on it today. Here's what I found:

Pros:

-This unit is NOT a squadron. Nowhere in the rules does it say that it is. In fact, in the same data slate the entry for the Murderpack specifically says that the Murderpack is a squadron. What the rules do say, however, is that all three Helbrutes arrive on one die roll. What does this translate to for you? Three brutes, three different drop sites, one turn. This is HUGE for tactical flexibility. Most people assume the brutes must all be DSd onto the same target. Not the case. This also makes them more survivable than you would think for scatter.

- It Will Not Die. Self explanatory. Makes the brutes more survivable.

- Roll on the Crazed table the turn they arrive. You've got a 60% chance of getting the rage special rule, and then another 20% of being able to shoot all of your weapons the turn you arrive. Very much yes.

Cons:

-Scatter. Even though we can drop all three brutes in different locations, scatter is still an issue with big bases like these. You need to be wary of where you put these guys.

-Roll on the Crazed table the turn they arrive. This can be a con as well. If you scatter badly, this can put you within guaranteed charge range of an enemy unit, and you can't escape it. This can stink if you dropped him next to a tank or something and that to hit roll on your multi melta went fzzzzzt off into the distance. Then there is that last 20% that will have you running headlong towards the nearest enemy without being able to fire your weapons in the shooting phase and not being able to declare a charge.

-One crazed roll for all three brutes. Say you dropped two brutes for a little tank hunting and one to assault an objective. You roll crazed and get Blood Rage. Well, those two tank hunters are now running instead of shooting. This makes taking different weapon loadouts on brutes a bit impossible. You are going to need to kit them out for one role and one role only.

My two recommendations for loadouts are as follows:

Anti Tank:

Bare bones MM/PF- All three for 300 points flat.

Anti Troop:
Reaper Autocannon x3
Combi Bolter x3
2x Power scourge
1x Power Fist- 350 Pts- Power scourge WS reduction stacks if they end up in melee, one power fist for a little heavy hitting. On fire frenzy, that's 8 twin linked shots per dread. More than decent against line troops camping on objectives. Even a little light armor/transport fun, if you're feeling frisky

Cheers

-Kal

[Targetlock]

So, here's a bit of a review on the Mayhem pack. I did a bit of playtesting on it today. Here's what I found:

Pros:

-This unit is NOT a squadron. Nowhere in the rules does it say that it is. In fact, in the same data slate the entry for the Murderpack specifically says that the Murderpack is a squadron. What the rules do say, however, is that all three Helbrutes arrive on one die roll. What does this translate to for you? Three brutes, three different drop sites, one turn. This is HUGE for tactical flexibility. Most people assume the brutes must all be DSd onto the same target. Not the case. This also makes them more survivable than you would think for scatter.

- It Will Not Die. Self explanatory. Makes the brutes more survivable.

- Don't roll on the Crazed table the turn they arrive. The rulebook specifically states in the entry for arriving by reserves that units may not charge, or use special rules or abilities that must be used at the start of the turn the turn they arrive. This guarantees your dreads will not run when they aren't supposed to and you can fire their weapons.

Cons:

-Scatter. Even though we can drop all three brutes in different locations, scatter is still an issue with big bases like these. You need to be wary of where you put these guys.

-Don't roll on the Crazed table the turn they arrive. This can be a con as well. If you scatter badly, this can put you within guaranteed charge range of an enemy unit, and you can't escape it. Not rolling crazed denies you the ability to shoot your weapons twice in case this happens. This can also stink if you dropped him next to a tank or something and that to hit roll on your multi melta went fzzzzzt off into the distance.

-One crazed roll for all three brutes. Say you dropped two brutes for a little tank hunting and one to assault an objective. You roll crazed and get Blood Rage. Well, those two tank hunters are now running instead of shooting. This makes taking different weapon loadouts on brutes a bit impossible. You are going to need to kit them out for one role and one role only.

My two recommendations for loadouts are as follows:

Anti Tank:

Bare bones MM/PF- All three for 300 points flat.

Anti Troop:

Reaper Autocannon x3

Combi Bolter x3

2x Power scourge

1x Power Fist- 350 Pts- Power scourge WS reduction stacks if they end up in melee, one power fist for a little heavy hitting. On fire frenzy, that's 8 twin linked shots per dread. More than decent against line troops camping on objectives. Even a little light armor/transport fun, if you're feeling frisky

Cheers

-Kal

sounds pretty cool to me :) I'm a big fan of dreadnoughts and trying to find the most effective way to use them in my force (though mine is daemonkin) im leaning towards the helcult, a fun way to use helbrutes and make some cultists effective, though what would be best loadout for the dread? im thinking reaper autocannons.

[Kaldoth]

Well, I don't have much experience with the Helcult. But, given the rules I would lean towards close combat with it. All of those cultists prividing a 3+ save make it a bit more survivable for a foot slog. I could see it being a pretty effective objective holder or contester. The great thing about cultists is that they can take 3 flamers in a 35 man group. Any of the other weapons are too expensive for what they do. So, two maxxed squads of cultists with three flamers a piece will run you 330 points (I think flamers are 5 pts IIRC), plus a Heavy flamer and a power scourge on the brute means a whopping 7 templates and a WS reduction for any enemies in base to base with the brute. Makes for a tasty swarm clearing tactic if you ask me!

[Targetlock]

Well, I don't have much experience with the Helcult. But, given the rules I would lean towards close combat with it. All of those cultists prividing a 3+ save make it a bit more survivable for a foot slog. I could see it being a pretty effective objective holder or contester. The great thing about cultists is that they can take 3 flamers in a 35 man group. Any of the other weapons are too expensive for what they do. So, two maxxed squads of cultists with three flamers a piece will run you 330 points (I think flamers are 5 pts IIRC), plus a Heavy flamer and a power scourge on the brute means a whopping 7 templates and a WS reduction for any enemies in base to base with the brute. Makes for a tasty swarm clearing tactic if you ask me!

 

like the sound of this to me :) would they all work as one huge unit or still individual units? kind of like the idea of a mob of cultists with the helbrute in the centre. is a mark worthwhile on the cultists? im tempted for khorne just to go with the rest of my force.

[the jeske]

I would like to point out that 300+pts for 3 autocannons or 3 MM is a bit much. Same points in predators gives you the same AC and heavy bolters and av13 and non of the crazy problems.

[totgeboren]

 

- Don't roll on the Crazed table the turn they arrive.  The rulebook specifically states in the entry for arriving by reserves that units may not charge, or use special rules or abilities that must be used at the start of the turn the turn they arrive.  This guarantees your dreads will not run when they aren't supposed to and you can fire their weapons.

 

 

But you are allowed to use abilities that are used at the start of the Movement phase, which the crazy roll is.

 

So, make sure you end up within 12" of an enemy unit. Depending on what you roll you either get to shoot normally, shoot twice or you must assault, which you can't even though you are within maximum assault range. If you are outside of maximum assault range you must run, and there is no way around that, but if you are within 12" you may still shoot if you want to.

[Kaldoth]

like the sound of this to me would they all work as one huge unit or still individual units? kind of like the idea of a mob of cultists with the helbrute in the centre. is a mark worthwhile on the cultists? im tempted for khorne just to go with the rest of my force.

I wouldn't mark them. Not worth the points for what you get. Just run them bare bones with flamers at most.

I would like to point out that 300+pts for 3 autocannons or 3 MM is a bit much. Same points in predators gives you the same AC and heavy bolters and av13 and non of the crazy problems.

True, but what you don't get is deep strike, if will not die, crazy can often be a solution more than a problem, and the look on your opponents face is priceless when you strike three brutes into the middle of his line, onto an objective, or right behind a big nasty tank. Risky? Yes. Worth it? It definitely can be.

But you are allowed to use abilities that are used at the start of the Movement phase, which the crazy roll is.

I'll have to look it up, but the ruling at my store has been no rolling on the table the turn they arrive. Its a special ability used at the beginning of the movement phase. Rulebook says no go.

EDIT:

You are absolutely correct! Shows how much I know :P Thanks for pointing that out. Will adjust my post accordingly ^_^

[totgeboren]

 

But you are allowed to use abilities that are used at the start of the Movement phase, which the crazy roll is.

I'll have to look it up, but the ruling at my store has been no rolling on the table the turn they arrive. Its a special ability used at the beginning of the movement phase. Rulebook says no go.

 

 

Each to their own, the rules only say you can't use abilities which are activated at the start of the Turn, while the Crazy table is rolled on at the start of the Movement phase, which is after you roll for if units have arrived from reserves. On the other hand the Deep Strike rules says "In the Movement phase during which they arrive", so those rules seem to imply they arrive during the Movement phase after all, though the rules for Reserve says to roll and deploy at the start of the turn (which is before the movement phase), and that you may not move any other unit until all units who arrive from Reserve have been deployed.

 

Personally I would like them to not have to roll. There is only so much random I can take before it stops being enjoyable.

[Kaldoth]

But you are allowed to use abilities that are used at the start of the Movement phase, which the crazy roll is.

I'll have to look it up, but the ruling at my store has been no rolling on the table the turn they arrive. Its a special ability used at the beginning of the movement phase. Rulebook says no go.

Each to their own, the rules only say you can't use abilities which are activated at the start of the Turn, while the Crazy table is rolled on at the start of the Movement phase, which is after you roll for if units have arrived from reserves. On the other hand the Deep Strike rules says "In the Movement phase during which they arrive", so those rules seem to imply they arrive during the Movement phase after all, though the rules for Reserve says to roll and deploy at the start of the turn (which is before the movement phase), and that you may not move any other unit until all units who arrive from Reserve have been deployed.

Personally I would like them to not have to roll. There is only so much random I can take before it stops being enjoyable.

Seems as if we were both replying at the same time Read my post above. Though, I would like to point out this (prepare for some rules lawyering):

In the movement phase during which they arrive

So, reserve rolls happen before the movement phase at the beginning of your turn. The rulebook does say the "beginning of the turn" is not the same thing as the beginning of your movement phase. So, we have this:

Beginning of turn-> Movement phase

Reserve rolls are made first.

Reserve Rolls->Movement phase

Now, the crazed table says at the beginning of the movement phase, which implies you resolve this first.

Reserve Rolls->Crazed->Reserve Placement

Given that, isn't it safe to say that you would resolve Crazed results before deep striking reserves? If so, the crazed rule wouldn't affect the brutes, as special abilities rules and abilities do not affect models waiting in reserves to be deployed. So, not on the table, no roll for crazed?

[totgeboren]

I think the intent is that they should roll when they come down, because GW seem to define CSM as lolrandumb, and that leads to more randumb.

 

I mean, the Reserves rules says you must deploy all units that arrive from reserves before you can move anything else. But I guess if you add the Reserves rules and the Deep Strike rules together, you get that you roll for Reserves at the start of the turn, but you don't deploy them until you get to the start of the Movement phase (since the DS rules says "In the Movement phase during which they arrive"), and that means you have two things that happen at the start of the Movement phase, deploying and the Crazy-roll, and in that case the player gets to pick the order. And if you roll for Crazy first, you have an ability with no model that can be affected, and so it doesn't apply.

 

Feels kinda contrived doesn't it? :p

[Kaldoth]

Contrived? Yes. Is it game shatteringly overpowered? Not at all It is by definition rules lawyering, but you really aren't gaining all that much by not rolling on the table anyway. Yeah, if you roll a six your brutes are going to rush forward if they aren't within 12", but its likely that you were going to drop them next to something that wouldn't blow them up in one turn anyway. Second, between 3HP, IWND, and THREE brutes that just got dropped into the middle of your opponent's grand plan, he's going to have a hard(er) time wiping all three off of the table between target priority and damage rolls. And if you don't roll a six, well then you've either got rage or fire frenzy. People tend to focus on the negative within a rule more than the benefit in case that one in six scenario happens. Even if it does, it's not the end of the world. That's still 9 HP with IWND your opponent has to deal with, and likely you struck them in somewhere they can maximize damage with little return risk, right?

[GreyCrow]

The way I use Helbrutes and Dreadnoughts in general is as a "support" unit for footslogging lists. Due to its speed it synchronizes very well with boots on the ground over faster elements and works as a defender platform to counter threats incoming towards the units.

 

On its own, it's best not used as an attack or eraser unit. It's good to intercept special kinds of threats coming to the line, but not much else.

[the jeske]

Contrived? Yes. Is it game shatteringly overpowered? Not at all It is by definition rules lawyering, but you really aren't gaining all that much by not rolling on the table anyway. Yeah, if you roll a six your brutes are going to rush forward if they aren't within 12", but its likely that you were going to drop them next to something that wouldn't blow them up in one turn anyway. Second, between 3HP, IWND, and THREE brutes that just got dropped into the middle of your opponent's grand plan, he's going to have a hard(er) time wiping all three off of the table between target priority and damage rolls. And if you don't roll a six, well then you've either got rage or fire frenzy. People tend to focus on the negative within a rule more than the benefit in case that one in six scenario happens. Even if it does, it's not the end of the world. That's still 9 HP with IWND your opponent has to deal with, and likely you struck them in somewhere they can maximize damage with little return risk, right?

Am having a problem with the scatttter in the middle part of the plan. How does one do it without a drop pod. loyalist can, but their dreads drop turn 1 and don't scatter. Chaos dreads scatter the full distance, and 9hp on an av12 without any other mitigation isn't very resilient either. Otherwise IG would be able to use their chimeras.

[Kaldoth]

Am having a problem with the scatttter in the middle part of the plan. How does one do it without a drop pod. loyalist can, but their dreads drop turn 1 and don't scatter. Chaos dreads scatter the full distance, and 9hp on an av12 without any other mitigation isn't very resilient either. Otherwise IG would be able to use their chimeras.

Well, factor in the max scatter distance of 12" and place accordingly, really. Your multi melta has a max range of 24", so even if you scatter the max distance you can still reach out a d touch somebody with it. I never said the unit was without risk. Quite the opposite. But, if you place well, you minimize risk of mishap. Just because you can't guarantee an unscatterrd deep strike doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. That's just me, anyway :)

[totgeboren]

Am having a problem with the scatttter in the middle part of the plan. How does one do it without a drop pod. loyalist can, but their dreads drop turn 1 and don't scatter. Chaos dreads scatter the full distance, and 9hp on an av12 without any other mitigation isn't very resilient either. Otherwise IG would be able to use their chimeras.

Well, factor in the max scatter distance of 12" and place accordingly, really. Your multi melta has a max range of 24", so even if you scatter the max distance you can still reach out a d touch somebody with it. I never said the unit was without risk. Quite the opposite. But, if you place well, you minimize risk of mishap. Just because you can't guarantee an unscatterrd deep strike doesn't mean you shouldn't use it. That's just me, anyway

Maybe I play with too much terrain, but a scatter is the same thing as a mishap for me two times out of three. Or, when I deep strike something, about half the time it will mishap, half the time it will end up somewhere where it can do something useful.

[Kaldoth]

Maybe I play with too much terrain, but a scatter is the same thing as a mishap for me two times out of three. Or, when I deep strike something, about half the time it will mishap, half the time it will end up somewhere where it can do something useful.

The Mayhem pack, just like any other unit in the game, is entirely situational. There are some units out there that are absolutely no brainers to take, and then there are some that are only good for certain fights. For a city fight kind of board, or a densely forested board, I wouldn't take a lot of brutes. Swarm armies like 'nids and Orks, probably not a good choice. But against a static gunline, mechanized, or against emplaced units like Devastator's or Basilisks, a mayhem pack can be incredibly useful. The discussion is about making Helbrutes a viable choice and how to use them. In low to medium density terrain, against vehicle/heavy infantry themed armies, the Mayhem Pack brings helbrutes back into play as, IMHO, a good formation choice and something that could possibly tip the balance of the game if used properly.

 

Cheers,

 

-Kal

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

I personally love hellbrutes im thinking of giving mine a plasma cannon and sitting him in a hell cult

[Thousand Eyes]

Mayhem pack is the way I plan to go with it. But then I haven't played since 3rd edition and am only just getting back into things.

 

Thanks for the write up and comments though.