Black Marshal Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 as someone who has played mech ba extensively I would have to agree with Maximus' estimation...they suck. Don't get me wrong they are cool and fun and totally playable in a friendly environment. Trying to play them seriously they just do not do what you want them to do. I have two vindicators that I used for over a year and haven't been used since because they almost never got to fire their guns. My razorbacks die from the first thing that shoots at them. And with the amount of fire power out there at doesn't care what your Armor value you have is amazing. I love my mech ba because I have spent so much time building painting and playing them but I am quoting someone else "now is the era of the jump pack". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-beard Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 The problem with vindicators is the vehicle damage table. Any pen cripples them. 1: Can't fire the main gun 2: Can't fire the main gun 3: Can't fire the main gun 4: Can't fire the main gun 5: Can't fire the main gun (destroyed) 6: Immobilized and main gun is not on a turret 7: Boom One lucky pen and the tank is useless for an entire round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appiah4 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 The problem with vindicators is the vehicle damage table. Any pen cripples them. 1: Can't fire the main gun 2: Can't fire the main gun 3: Can't fire the main gun 4: Can't fire the main gun 5: Can't fire the main gun (destroyed) 6: Immobilized and main gun is not on a turret 7: Boom One lucky pen and the tank is useless for an entire round. Well, you can still Ram with it in most cases :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 Reason why you need to run it in deuces ... while one is dead meat (still taking reasonable fire) the second is able to return fire ...if able take 3 but BA has much better options ... On the other hand, been playing with idea of list with Dual Caetus with tripple Vindies ...RAMs for the RAM god... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bukimimaru Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 For troops, I'd go with 2 x 5 man Tacs in Lasplas razorbacks. I know Razors arnt in favor right now, but with all the other high armour on the field, the opponent will have more important things to worry about. The plasmabacks are almost certainly the first thing that your enemy will kill because 1) its low armour 2) it packs a pretty decent punch 3) its transporting troops, which may get pinned/suffer some losses from the Razor's destruction. Well these arnt being used for transport, they would be sat at the very back of the board shooting off their lascannons. Even so, if the enemy is spending time shooting at cheap av 11 transports, your Dreads, Vindis, Preds, StormRavens etc are going unmolested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 It seems sad to say it but spamming units in a similar role is pretty effective in many armies. Stopping one Wave Serpent is not that hard, killing 4-5 in 1500 points is a lot harder. The new codex has made BA armour-spam less effective than under the old codex but even so, stopping 7-8 AV13+ hulls is not going to be easy. OK laserbacks might provide your opponent with a couple of easy kills (and potentially 1st Blood) but any serious AT fire directed against them means the core of the armour is still heading his way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bukimimaru Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 I really, really miss having outflanking Baal Preds that didnt use up a precious Heavy Slot. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-beard Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Reason why you need to run it in deuces ... while one is dead meat (still taking reasonable fire) the second is able to return fire ...if able take 3 but BA has much better options ... On the other hand, been playing with idea of list with Dual Caetus with tripple Vindies ...RAMs for the RAM god... You can run them in pairs, sure. But a smart opponent will shoot one lance or lascannon into the first Vindicator to pen it. Once that 1st vindicator is made useless for a turn from taking a single pen, the smart opponent will shoot his other anti-tank weapons into the 2nd vindicator and try to pen that one and also make it useless. Another problem for vindicators is that they have short range, a narrow front arc, and big fat AV11 side arcs. After the first turn, a strong opponent will be hitting the AV11 and not the AV13. I like vindicators and do run them (b/c, let's admit it, big guns are fun). However, my expectations for them are extremely low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 It seems sad to say it but spamming units in a similar role is pretty effective in many armies. Stopping one Wave Serpent is not that hard, killing 4-5 in 1500 points is a lot harder. The new codex has made BA armour-spam less effective than under the old codex but even so, stopping 7-8 AV13+ hulls is not going to be easy. OK laserbacks might provide your opponent with a couple of easy kills (and potentially 1st Blood) but any serious AT fire directed against them means the core of the armour is still heading his way. Just like that friendly Russian fella said, "Quantity is a quality in itself". No coincidence that the top competitive players run their best units in threes, or more. One for dying, one to succeed where the other one fails. Now what could we use that way? The Sicaran stands out to me, but nothing from the dex I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t4play Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Ok "sicaran" what is it? where do I find rules for it? how do I include it in a FT list? And where do I get one? Sorry to poke into a post but running a mainly mech list of rhinos and razors I'd like to know what this Sicaran is all about thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaezus Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 It's an AV 13 12 12 fast tank. Main weapon is the accelerator autocannon S7 AP4 rending Heavy 6 twin linked, ignores jink. Rules are in Imperial Armour volume 2, 2nd edition (IA2.2). Can also be downloaded free from foreign sites which are not subject to western copyright law. It's also a relic of the armoury, meaning you can only take one unless you have a keeper of relics in your army. This used to be the reclusiarch but is now, under FW house rules, the chaplain. Forgeworld model; buy it from their store or a bit cheaper from foreign trading sites. Fits right in with BA and successors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t4play Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Thanks sounds good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Well these arnt being used for transport, they would be sat at the very back of the board shooting off their lascannons. Even so, if the enemy is spending time shooting at cheap av 11 transports, your Dreads, Vindis, Preds, StormRavens etc are going unmolested. That is not taking into account how much easier it is to nuke AV 11 vehicles compared to AV13 or Flyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bukimimaru Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I find that my opponents dont want to waste las-cannon or other long range weapons at razorbacks when there are vindicators and predators on the table, and whilst it is true that lower stength weapons can pop Razorbacks, most of them dont have the range to hit the backfield very early in the game. If my 2 razorbacks last until turn 3, then they will probably have made their points back. But hey, if they don't work for you, thats fine too. Different folkes, different strokes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 I find that my opponents dont want to waste las-cannon or other long range weapons at razorbacks when there are vindicators and predators on the table, You are lucky then. Razorbacks are usually target priority number 1 due to the combination of being lightly armoured, packing a mean punch and being transports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Aegis Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Mine used to get targeted until I started using triple las predators, along with a few riflemen dreads. Saturation works wonderfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Mine used to get targeted until I started using triple las predators, along with a few riflemen dreads. Saturation works wonderfully. I'd still target the Razors first if I was faced with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Shadow Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Does no one use Whirlwinds? Are they rubbish or do people just consider other options better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Does no one use Whirlwinds? Are they rubbish or do people just consider other options better? I haven't been a fan of Whirlwinds for a very long time. Very fragile and not enough damage output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 If hidden and firing indirect, the accuracy suffers. If you put it where it has LOS, it is vulnerable to return fire. Blood Angels do not struggle much against infantry blobs as we have plentiful access to flamers and CC units with enough attacks to wear down even big units. If you want pie plates, the Whirlwind competes with the Fast Vindicator which (whilst more expensive) is better in just about every respect. The Whirlwind is a solution to a problem the Blood Angels do not have. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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