Quantum Shielding VS. Lance

[Swculve]

So QS became a set value in the 7th edition codex. Both Lance and Quantum Shielding are modifiers that set a characteristic value (Armour Value). Since they are both the same type of modifier and happen at the same time, on the same 'layer,' they are conflicting with no clear outcome. Since they are conflicting, Basic Versus Advance comes into play. Lance is basic, while Quantum Shielding is advanced.

 

Lance- "count Vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12."

 

Quantum Shielding- "counts all of its Front and Side Armour Values as 13."

 

Modifiers:

"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any mulipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values"

 

Both are set values. Both are applied last, and in conflict because of it.

 

If in Conflict, the Advanced versus Basic rules clarify to use the codex rules over USR's and the Rulebook.

 

Advanced versus Basic:

"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override basic rules... A conflict will between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence"

 

Interesting that Lance does nothing to Quantum Shielding lol. I don't play Necrons or use Lamce in my army, but this be funny to watch the Eldar players expression as you inform them that the Necrons they're fighting negate their Lance shots lol.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Do you have a question, or are you just pointing out the obvious?

 

Yes, lance is in the rulebook, QS in a codex. Codex > rulebook, all day every day.

[Swculve]

Do you have a question, or are you just pointing out the obvious?

 

Yes, lance is in the rulebook, QS in a codex. Codex > rulebook, all day every day.

Players argue this, particularly Eldar players, wanted a clear reference of the rules for it on a forum so maybe more players wouldn't just assume Lance wins.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Like I said, codex > rulebook. Suck it, Eldar.

[Swculve]

Lol

[Acebaur]

Like I said, codex > rulebook. Suck it, Eldar.

 

I'm not sure this really applies here. The Lance rule is in the BRB because it applies to multiple armies, so it is more of a convenience thing than a BRB rule. 

 

Another thing to consider is the Sequencing rule on page 17. This would seem to favor the Eldar player as it will almost always be his turn when shooting Lance weapons. 

 

To be honest I think the best thing is to simply dice off for it to see which wins. You can even make it a fluff thing, by dicing off for each unit to see if the QS can resist the penetrating power of the lance. 

[Kristoff]

 

Like I said, codex > rulebook. Suck it, Eldar.

 

I'm not sure this really applies here. The Lance rule is in the BRB because it applies to multiple armies, so it is more of a convenience thing than a BRB rule. 

 

Another thing to consider is the Sequencing rule on page 17. This would seem to favor the Eldar player as it will almost always be his turn when shooting Lance weapons. 

 

To be honest I think the best thing is to simply dice off for it to see which wins. You can even make it a fluff thing, by dicing off for each unit to see if the QS can resist the penetrating power of the lance.

 

The Sequencing Rule applies when two rules are resolved at the same time. Quantum Shielding applies when the Vehicle is deployed and is modifying the Armour Value from Movement on until it gets Penetrated. Lance only applies when a weapon is attempting an Armour Penetration roll.

[Swculve]

All USR's are basic rules, they are described in the core rulebook, only referenced if you have them in a codex. It is a Basic rule as defined by Advanced versus Basic, all rules (USR's included) described in the rulebook are Basic. They are mentioned in codex's that have them to show you have them, and tells you to look in the rulebook for a given USR's rules.

 

They are both modifiers, the modifier rules state both are applied, and neither override the other because they are the same type of modifier. Advanced versus Basic says the Advanced rules override any basic rule. Sequencing says who's player turn it is chooses the sequence, that doesn't change the fact a basic rule (Lance) sets an armor value and the Advanced Versus Basic rules says specifically the Advanced rule (QS, also setting an armor value) will override it.

 

Modifier rules state if a given type of modifier overrides another, or if they are the same type of modifier that neither overrides the other.

 

Sequence can clarify which one resolves first, but that's all it does. While Modifier rules say they are still equal, and Advanced versus Basic rules clarifies QS being advanced wins here.

 

Example: active player shoots a USR Lance type weapon at a QS vehicle, decides QS is applied first since Modifier rules says they equal modifiers and sequencing says he gets to choose the order, then Lance is applied, but still doesn't override the Codex rule QS because QS is Advanced and Lance is Basic. Choosing their sequence doesn't change the fact that they are still equal types of modifiers, Advanced versus Basic still is applied to rectify that.

[Teetengee]

Advanced vs basic on page 13 says that USRs are advanced rules (as they are excluded from the basic rules), however, it still says that brb rules are overruled by codex rules when in conflict. However, the Lance rule never changes the armour value of the target. It merely states that the weapon counts it as 12 if it would otherwise be higher. I can't be sure since I do not have the necron codex, but it seems that the way the rules would work is that QS would make the vehicle armour 13, and then Lance would treat it as 12.

[Fibonacci]

From what we have hashed out among my game groups is that there is no conflict.  QS is at AV 13 and lance weapons work exactly like they do with any other AV 13.  The front armor of a Predator counts as AV 13, too.  Why would it not?

 

However I don't see this getting answered on B&C any more than it has on other forums.  For now, try to reach an agreement with your opponents before you start a game. Like Acebaur said, dicing off is always an acceptable solution in situations like this.

[Swculve]

From what we have hashed out among my game groups is that there is no conflict. QS is at AV 13 and lance weapons work exactly like they do with any other AV 13. The front armor of a Predator counts as AV 13, too. Why would it not?

 

However I don't see this getting answered on B&C any more than it has on other forums. For now, try to reach an agreement with your opponents before you start a game. Like Acebaur said, dicing off is always an acceptable solution in situations like this.

Advanced vs basic on page 13 says that USRs are advanced rules (as they are excluded from the basic rules), however, it still says that brb rules are overruled by codex rules when in conflict. However, the Lance rule never changes the armour value of the target. It merely states that the weapon counts it as 12 if it would otherwise be higher. I can't be sure since I do not have the necron codex, but it seems that the way the rules would work is that QS would make the vehicle armour 13, and then Lance would treat it as 12.

Read my first post, both are under Modifier rules set values, both set opposing armor values, the rules say there neither overrides the other, but demonstrates a conflict because of it. Advanced versus Basic clears this up saying to use the codex rule (QS).

 

There's a specific way modifiers like both these rules are are applied, explained in the Applying Modifiers section that creates the conflict. The Advanced versus Basics rules are clear about which rules override which other rules in a any conflict.

 

Applying Modifiers rules:

"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any mulipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values"

 

Both are set values. Both are applied last, and in conflict because of it.

 

If in Conflict, the Advanced versus Basic rules clarify to use the codex rules over USR's and the Rulebook.

 

Advanced versus Basic rules:

"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override basic rules... A conflict will between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence"

[Venemox]

There is no conflict, as they are not resolved simultaneously.  The BRB is very specific in that aspect.

 

'While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order. '

[Swculve]

There is no conflict, as they are not resolved simultaneously. The BRB is very specific in that aspect.

 

'While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order. '

Yeah guess I'm flipping back to other side of this argument lol. I do think that clarifies it.

[Teetengee]

 

From what we have hashed out among my game groups is that there is no conflict. QS is at AV 13 and lance weapons work exactly like they do with any other AV 13. The front armor of a Predator counts as AV 13, too. Why would it not?

 

However I don't see this getting answered on B&C any more than it has on other forums. For now, try to reach an agreement with your opponents before you start a game. Like Acebaur said, dicing off is always an acceptable solution in situations like this.

Advanced vs basic on page 13 says that USRs are advanced rules (as they are excluded from the basic rules), however, it still says that brb rules are overruled by codex rules when in conflict. However, the Lance rule never changes the armour value of the target. It merely states that the weapon counts it as 12 if it would otherwise be higher. I can't be sure since I do not have the necron codex, but it seems that the way the rules would work is that QS would make the vehicle armour 13, and then Lance would treat it as 12.

Read my first post, both are under Modifier rules set values, both set opposing armor values, the rules say there neither overrides the other, but demonstrates a conflict because of it. Advanced versus Basic clears this up saying to use the codex rule (QS).

 

There's a specific way modifiers like both these rules are are applied, explained in the Applying Modifiers section that creates the conflict. The Advanced versus Basics rules are clear about which rules override which other rules in a any conflict.

 

Applying Modifiers rules:

"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any mulipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values"

 

Both are set values. Both are applied last, and in conflict because of it.

 

If in Conflict, the Advanced versus Basic rules clarify to use the codex rules over USR's and the Rulebook.

 

Advanced versus Basic rules:

"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override basic rules... A conflict will between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence"

 

My point was that the lance rule doesn't set a different value. The armour is still 13. Lance weaponry just doesn't care.

[Kristoff]

There is no conflict, as they are not resolved simultaneously.  The BRB is very specific in that aspect.

 

'While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order. '

 

Did you miss the part where that rule applies only when they are resolved at the same time?

 

But there is still a conflict. I will get to why in just a minute.

 

My point was that the lance rule doesn't set a different value. The armour is still 13. Lance weaponry just doesn't care.

If Lance doesn't set a different value, than Quantum Shielding doesn't either.

 

Both rules literally have certain Armour Values "count as" a set value. They use the exact same words to establish what they do but not when and to what value.

 

When a Lance weapon hits, it attempts to count the Armour Value as 12 (if higher). When that hit occurs (and before it, too) Quantum Shielding is attempting to count the Armour Value as 13 until the Vehicle is Penetrated.

 

12 and 13 cannot exist as the same value for an object, so a conflict arises.

 

Since Lance and Quantum Shielding are not applied at the same time, Sequencing does not help (requiring both to happen at the same time to take affect).

 

Since they are both set values, no other type of modifier can override them unless explicitly stated (see multiple modifier rules).

 

Basic vs Advanced tells us that USRs override basic rules and Codex special rules override USRs and any other basic and advanced rules in the rulebook.

 

Lance is a rulebook advanced rule by virtue of being a USR. Quantum Shielding is a codex rule.

 

Conflict is now resolved in favor of Quantum Shielding by virtue of the Basic vs Advanced rule.

[Ushtarador]

I'm sure it was not the intention of GW to make Quantum Shielding ignore Lance. Nobody around here plays it like that in any tournament or friendly game.

Yes RAW you might make a case for it, but many things are stupid RAW.

[Teetengee]

 

There is no conflict, as they are not resolved simultaneously.  The BRB is very specific in that aspect.

 

'While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order. '

 

Did you miss the part where that rule applies only when they are resolved at the same time?

 

But there is still a conflict. I will get to why in just a minute.

 

My point was that the lance rule doesn't set a different value. The armour is still 13. Lance weaponry just doesn't care.

If Lance doesn't set a different value, than Quantum Shielding doesn't either.

 

Both rules literally have certain Armour Values "count as" a set value. They use the exact same words to establish what they do but not when and to what value.

 

When a Lance weapon hits, it attempts to count the Armour Value as 12 (if higher). When that hit occurs (and before it, too) Quantum Shielding is attempting to count the Armour Value as 13 until the Vehicle is Penetrated.

 

12 and 13 cannot exist as the same value for an object, so a conflict arises.

 

Since Lance and Quantum Shielding are not applied at the same time, Sequencing does not help (requiring both to happen at the same time to take affect).

 

Since they are both set values, no other type of modifier can override them unless explicitly stated (see multiple modifier rules).

 

Basic vs Advanced tells us that USRs override basic rules and Codex special rules override USRs and any other basic and advanced rules in the rulebook.

 

Lance is a rulebook advanced rule by virtue of being a USR. Quantum Shielding is a codex rule.

 

Conflict is now resolved in favor of Quantum Shielding by virtue of the Basic vs Advanced rule.

 

Ok, I wasn't aware that QS used the same "counts as" syntax. In that case, QS does in fact overrule Lance. I am not convinced this is RAI, but it does definitely seem to be RAW.

[Kristoff]

I'm sure it was not the intention of GW to make Quantum Shielding ignore Lance. Nobody around here plays it like that in any tournament or friendly game.

Yes RAW you might make a case for it, but many things are stupid RAW.

Well since this forum doesn't represent your local group, we kind of have to stick to RAW. RAI can be discussed with your opponents, your local group, and TOs.

 

It's still good to know how the rules are organized so you can bring a proper presentation and everyone can make informed decisions.

[KiwiBen]

Without wanting to get dragged into the never-ending debate this seems to have become on a few other forums - If we're playing the RAW game, I don't think that it is possible to rely on "multiple modifiers" to resolve this. The process for multiple modifiers only applies where "a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modifies a characteristic" (BRB p8) - it requires that the combination of rules/wargear must be "had" or possessed by the same model. It is quite clear here that the Necron "has" QS and the enemy weapon "has" Lance. It is not a case of the same model possessing multiple rules/wargear to modify the same characteristic, therefore the modifier process can't apply.

Whether they're resolved simultaneously or not, I'm not even going to get into, as it is absolutely a matter of personal interpretation.

This question can't and won't be settled unless/until we get an FAQ - and given recent trends, I'm not holding my breath. My feeling is that, changes in the QS wording aside, the TO's that I know will be following the "Lance trumps QS" school of thought. My understanding is that the previous edition FAQed it to say Lance wins, and Necrons got good enough in the new codex without needing this particular easter egg as well.

That said, my Dark Eldar have been sitting in a box for nearly 2 years and I'm only playing Sisters and Grey Knights at the moment... so it's not my problem. Y'all do what you want!

[Kristoff]

Without wanting to get dragged into the never-ending debate this seems to have become on a few other forums - If we're playing the RAW game, I don't think that it is possible to rely on "multiple modifiers" to resolve this. The process for multiple modifiers only applies where "a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modifies a characteristic" (BRB p8) - it requires that the combination of rules/wargear must be "had" or possessed by the same model. It is quite clear here that the Necron "has" QS and the enemy weapon "has" Lance. It is not a case of the same model possessing multiple rules/wargear to modify the same characteristic, therefore the modifier process can't apply.

If Lance is not modifying the target's Armour Value, what is it doing?

 

The modifiers do not have to be possessed by the model to be affecting said model, a characteristic of the model just needs to be affected.

 

In this case, Lance affects a target's Armour Value, not the model firing it.

 

My feeling is that, changes in the QS wording aside, the TO's that I know will be following the "Lance trumps QS" school of thought. My understanding is that the previous edition FAQed it to say Lance wins, and Necrons got good enough in the new codex without needing this particular easter egg as well.

The previous edition FAQ doesn't really matter, as what the Wargear did changed to a different level of modifier.

 

I know a lot of TOs who haven't had time to research it will apply a "feel" ruling to it, and it "feels" right that since Lance comes second and won't activate without QS being active, Lance should affect it. The rules don't support it, but it is their event and so they can make the rules what they want.

[Teetengee]

 

Without wanting to get dragged into the never-ending debate this seems to have become on a few other forums - If we're playing the RAW game, I don't think that it is possible to rely on "multiple modifiers" to resolve this. The process for multiple modifiers only applies where "a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modifies a characteristic" (BRB p8) - it requires that the combination of rules/wargear must be "had" or possessed by the same model. It is quite clear here that the Necron "has" QS and the enemy weapon "has" Lance. It is not a case of the same model possessing multiple rules/wargear to modify the same characteristic, therefore the modifier process can't apply.

If Lance is not modifying the target's Armour Value, what is it doing?

 

The modifiers do not have to be possessed by the model to be affecting said model, a characteristic of the model just needs to be affected.

 

In this case, Lance affects a target's Armour Value, not the model firing it. 

I'm not sure that is accurate, the rule clearly states that the model has to have the rules or wargear in question. Which as far as I can tell means the multiple modifiers rule does not come into play at all. However, codex rules still trump brb, so QS still wins as far as I can tell.

[Kristoff]

I'm not sure that is accurate, the rule clearly states that the model has to have the rules or wargear in question. Which as far as I can tell means the multiple modifiers rule does not come into play at all. However, codex rules still trump brb, so QS still wins as far as I can tell.

From Modifiers: "Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively..."

 

Nope, possession is not required. If it was, than Lance would be literally useless.

 

But, yeah, codex still trumps rulebook. A rule some have forgotten in reviewing this case, and not necessarily here.

[tsijben]

Due to the sequencing rules there is no real contradiction because the active player decides what goes first.

And without a contradiction we can't use the 'Codex > BRB'-rules.

 

That would mean that Lance > QS (unless the Lance-player decides otherwise), except for an Overwatch against the Catacomb Command Barge.

[Kristoff]

Due to the sequencing rules there is no real contradiction because the active player decides what goes first.

And without a contradiction we can't use the 'Codex > BRB'-rules.

 

That would mean that Lance > QS (unless the Lance-player decides otherwise), except for an Overwatch against the Catacomb Command Barge.

Incorrect. The Sequencing rules only come in to play when two rules resolve at the same time.

 

Nor do the sequencing prevent conflicts, it just helps resolve them.

[Teetengee]

 

I'm not sure that is accurate, the rule clearly states that the model has to have the rules or wargear in question. Which as far as I can tell means the multiple modifiers rule does not come into play at all. However, codex rules still trump brb, so QS still wins as far as I can tell.

From Modifiers: "Certain pieces of wargear or special rules can modify a model’s characteristics positively or negatively..."

 

Nope, possession is not required. If it was, than Lance would be literally useless.

 

But, yeah, codex still trumps rulebook. A rule some have forgotten in reviewing this case, and not necessarily here.

 

I'm not arguing that the wargear can't modify the model's characteristic regardless of possession, my point was that the multiple modifiers conflict resolution rule technically only applies when they are possessed by the same character. (which means we look elsewhere for conflict resolution and arrive at codex>brb.)