Deathstorm Drop Pods - Insane?

[Emperor's Furor]

Looking at the rules for the Deathstorm Drop pod, it has 5 frag or if upgraded krak launchers, the krak launchers fire two krak missiles each at str 8 ap3 at BS4 and they can be fire at separate targets if needs be. To me that's an insane amount of shots at such high ap and str that can drop in behind your enemies front line and cause absolute havoc, I mean it could nearly neutralise a 10 man squad in one go or it could totally own tanks just through glancing let a lone penetrating. Really considering getting one or two of these.

[Azekellon]

What would you pair it with? If you're going to drop behind enemy lines, I'd suggest Breachers for the awesome durability, or Terminators for vicious power of their frames.

[Emperor's Furor]

A line of infiltrating breachers (Alpha legion) with outflanking headhunters and terminators in transports and a drop podding dread. Idea is to drop the deathstorms in first via drop pod assault, so they arrive on the first turn, then hopefully the second wave comes on via outflank. Really put on the pressure and get up and personal.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Doesn't it suffer from facing/single target firing issues? why does it get 2 kracks per turret?

[Emperor's Furor]

Doesn't it suffer from facing/single target firing issues? why does it get 2 kracks per turret?

I'm not sure about the facing, the model it's self has several facings but then the missile pods it carries has like 8 missiles on it. it has a rule that allows it to split fire for every launcher called Independent Machine Spirits. It gets two kraks per turret because each launcher is heavy 2 and it has 5 of them. Can it fire heavy weapons on the turn it deep strikes or would they be snap shots?

 

Edit: Vehicle counts as having moved at combat speed when it drops. However I'm not sure if the Independent Machine Spirits means all of them can fire at full BS on the turn they drop.

[Nusquam]

The updated rules for them in the latest FAQ made the fragstorms better and the krakstorms statistically identical by shooting every unit, friend or foe, d3 times with 12" at BS2 the turn it comes down. I've been experimenting with them in some lists. What makes them shine is that normal drop pods don't force out passengers so your podding infantry are safe inside.

[ROBOcaster]

I think it has facing firing arcs and I think only two launchers at a time will have interlocking fields of fire, also don't they shoot anything near them even friendly units? I think one would be great to cause confusion but two could cause mayhem forcing the enemy to show their hand.

[Emperor's Furor]

They sound so fun, exactly what I want for my Alpha Legion, to sow confusion and destruction so my main force can take advantage of the infiltrating/outflanking. Am I right that if a unit has infiltration (in this case from army special rule) then their transport can also infiltrate unless it states? (for example headhunters generic infiltrating gets lost if it takes a transport) So I could have outflanking terminators in a spartan/land raider and my headhunters in a rhino?

 

Also which do you think would be better? the frag shots on the open strike may be good but for prolonged effect I think the barrage of krak would be more helpful or should I just have one of each just in case.

[Nusquam]

Depends I would say. If you face tac blobs and the like or pod in infantry then fragstorm all the way. If you face mechanized lists then krak. Overall I would say frag is probably best out of two good things.

[Hesh Kadesh]

They sound so fun, exactly what I want for my Alpha Legion, to sow confusion and destruction so my main force can take advantage of the infiltrating/outflanking. Am I right that if a unit has infiltration (in this case from army special rule) then their transport can also infiltrate unless it states? (for example headhunters generic infiltrating gets lost if it takes a transport) So I could have outflanking terminators in a spartan/land raider and my headhunters in a rhino?

 

Also which do you think would be better? the frag shots on the open strike may be good but for prolonged effect I think the barrage of krak would be more helpful or should I just have one of each just in case.

 

In regards to Infiltrators; only Dedicated Transports, not just any old combined unit you choose to deploy together. Outflanking Spartans are pretty terrible, despite the idea. You spend those points on keeping them alive, despite the high strength shots coming their way. They're not a fantastic weapons platform; they're a Terminator/Primarch Conveyer belt. They mean to smash deep into enemy lines; sure 4x TL Lascannons can do alright, but I can think of cheaper ways about getting them rather than 350pt vehicle with really poor firing arcs.

 

Terminators can strike at the enemy lines Turn 2 in a Spartan. If you're buying a Spartan, it's for the same reason as you buy a Land Raider Crusader in 30K. Because it carries lots of them. So, you have a big blob of 2+ Save units (which dependent on Legion have some combination of special rules for being Bulky and getting benefits in combat, Furious Charge, or other esoteric rules which rely on being in the enemy deployment zone) equipped with *free* power weapons which also have the benefits of scoring regardless of Rite of War. 

 

Guess what kind of weapon is quite rare in 30K; I5+ AP2. It's quite rare in 40K too, but less so than 30K, which is pretty much Rending, Paragon Blades, Phoenix Power Spears, and Primarchs, plus some special characters like Eidolon or Sigismund; so maybe limited to about 1-4 models per army best case scenario. Some of those are either random (Rending), or situation dependent (Eidolon/Spears); that makes Terminators only real CC weakness other Terminators; as they're forced to take Fist equivalents and/or Axes to counter other terminators (who are forced to do the same).

Meanwhile, at range, they're at the mercy of things like Kheres which can pile on around 8-9 wounds including some AP2 ones a turn, or Magna Melta S8 AP1 Blasts which bottom out Feel No Pain very easily (and why Cataphractii are shooting Terminators). This is why you take a Spartan, so that those Kheres or Magna Meltas don't work against the Terminators until they're in CC when they cannot be actively targeted, and it requires a lucky scatter to take them out.

 

Just a tactical aside.

 

Regarding the pod; eh, it lacks Drop Pod Assault, which at it's price means that it doesn't really fit into a Drop Pod Assault based army (i.e, you have a list of 3 Drop Pods and 2 Deathstorms; it's a 50pt tax for you to drop those 2 additional normal Pods first turn. It's not that much of a cost; but I'd rather have another 50pts to play around with). They're also at the vagaries of normal reserves rolling; not a problem so much with reserve manipulation lists; but if I'm tinkering with reserves, I'd rather bring on Mor Deythan in a Darkwing or Fire Raptors, or something with a bit more meat than something forced to fire at BS2 on the turn it comes down. Sure, it's cheap and cheerful, but the fact that it's a dedicated weapon system makes it a massive PITA.

 

If Castellax were 3+ Saves, they'd be decent at stripping some wounds from them; angle it right, and that's 4 or even 6 missiles causing an unsaved wound on 3's. But, nope, Castellax are 2+ Saves, which makes even that niche use a bit naff.

It can fire Heavy Weapons on the turn it deep strikes; it's a vehicle which has the Relentless Special rule (all vehicles do). However, the 7th Edition FAQ "Automated Weapons" special rule replaces that use with BS2 D3 Shooting attacks per unit within 12" of the pod. Independent Machine spirits is pretty explicit in what it allows. 

[Emperor's Furor]

Yeah but from then onwards it fires all it's weapons at bs4 in subsequent turns. On the issue of the automated weapons when it says every target within 12" is hit by D3 attacks from the weapons, does that mean it's D3 Heavy 2 attacks or just D3 missiles in regards to the krak launchers so for example is the max you can have 3 missiles on the unit or 6 missiles on the same unit?

 

I can see why the frag is now better, D3 templates against everyone nearby is a lot "easier" as you don't have to worry about missing as much as firing krak at BS2.

 

I've put an army list up if anyone wants to check it out using a Deathstorm and the outflanking terminators in a landraider phobos. I made them Cataphractii but I'm thinking of changing them to Tartaros as then they can benefit from Dynat's reroll sweeping advance ability.

[Hesh Kadesh]

A shooting attack is made by a weapon, which may have a listed different number of shots. So; D3 Heavy 2 BS2 shots.

 

And no, Terminators may not sweep, regardless of Cataphractii or not. Tartaros was a rumour that they could, but no rules ever came for them.

[Emperor's Furor]

Ah ok, I'll just go with Cataphractii then, I can't see the reason for having normal Tartaros over Cataphractii, if neither can sweep and advance and the cataphractii get a bonus to their invulnerable, why would someone ever take Tartaros?

[Slips]

Because they aren't slow and purposeful, mainly. Meaning they at least get overwatch.

 

They 1-up Cataphractii for IF because of our Storms Shields but thats about it.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Running to cover objectives late game, and overwatch are all pretty big abilities to give up on with Cataphractii. Considering that 3VP's typically rely on holding an objective, it's a pretty big thing, especially if you end up misjudging. AP2 is rare in melee, meanwhile, and even rarer is at initiative, and rarer still when you're assaulting. So why risk giving up run and overwatch with your heavy flamers/combiflamers, especially if you're using something like Emperor's Children, or Night Lords  for the sake of a comparatively rarely used 4++?

 

Because of how niche Terminator units are (they're middle tier at best, and often find themselves dedicated to hunting down their opposite numbers in other army lists; an odd little unit which is normally taken only to kill those who other people have taken to kill your unit which you only took to kill their unit... etc etc), I rarely can find the points to take a dedicated killer unit, and would much rather take either a Typhon and be done with it (375 with Armoured Ceramite compared to 375 for 10 with fists, guess which wins).

 

When you think of the points that you put into a Terminator unit; usually Spartan, tooled Praetor, Primus Medicae, occasionally Rad nades Forge Lord, you're looking around another 750pts on top of the terminator squad itself.

 

And all I have to do is avoid you; or spend 465pts and 1 Elites choice on 6 Haywire near enough autohits to make that a reality.

[Sanct]

If Castellax were 3+ Saves, they'd be decent at stripping some wounds from them; angle it right, and that's 4 or even 6 missiles causing an unsaved wound on 3's. But, nope, Castellax are 2+ Saves, which makes even that niche use a bit naff.

but the castellax are a 3+ save? They still have atomantic shielding but that is still 4 times you were thinking.

When you think of the points that you put into a Terminator unit; usually Spartan, tooled Praetor, Primus Medicae, occasionally Rad nades Forge Lord, you're looking around another 750pts on top of the terminator squad itself.

Half the reason I don't use terminator armour outside the tartaros (they so pretty)