GK support

[march10k]

So I've come up with a few "auto-includes" for all of my loyalist armies...A pair of quad icarus VWBs and a GKL...which includes a tax of a 5 man strike squad.  the VWBs are amazing air defense, and the GKL is daemon insurance (hey, he can take divination when there are no daemons on the table!)

 

I was thinking about my repentia...they have rhinos, and my general play style is a sisters rhino rush.  The enemy gets to choose between trying to pick the repentia out of the back of the mob of seven rhinoloads that unload in his face, giving the 40 battle sisters (and banna-waving command squad) a second round of simalcrum-powered preferred enemy double-tapping, or charging in to tie up the battle sisters in melee, where they're only S3 (but +1A and preferred enemy?), only to have the repentia counter-charge and clean up...it's not unbeatable, but it's fun and it's more fluffy than dominion spam.

 

But...if I'm already fielding the GK contingent...why not load a single squad of repentia into a stormraven, dropping the second squad of them, two rhinos, and the VWBs in the process...9 exiscerators coming off of an assault ramp is a lot better than 18 of them coming out of rhinos, no?  And cheaper, since the stormraven more than adequately replaces the VWBs in the air defense role...WSY?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I was thinking about my repentia...they have rhinos, and my general play style is a sisters rhino rush.  The enemy gets to choose between trying to pick the repentia out of the back of the mob of seven rhinoloads that unload in his face, giving the 40 battle sisters (and banna-waving command squad) a second round of simalcrum-powered preferred enemy double-tapping, or charging in to tie up the battle sisters in melee, where they're only S3 (but +1A and preferred enemy?), only to have the repentia counter-charge and clean up...it's not unbeatable, but it's fun and it's more fluffy than dominion spam.

 

Enjoy getting shot off the table. Even with 6+ AV11 hulls, xenos will have no trouble killing the leading vehicles and thus clogging up your advance with dead Rhinos. You then disembark short of your preferred range, and eat another 2 shooting phases before getting into rapid-fire range. Being T3, you're easier to kill than Marines, and your complete lack of melee ability means even basic Boyz or Tac Marines can roll over most of your squads. 

 

Repentia aren't going to scare people that much, especially if they can get a charge in against them. Dominion spam is relevant because it brings a bunch of meltaguns on the cheap on Fast platforms, then says to your opponent 'okay kill these or the Exorcists, but either way you'll eat AP1'. 

But...if I'm already fielding the GK contingent...why not load a single squad of repentia into a stormraven, dropping the second squad of them, two rhinos, and the VWBs in the process...9 exiscerators coming off of an assault ramp is a lot better than 18 of them coming out of rhinos, no?  And cheaper, since the stormraven more than adequately replaces the VWBs in the air defense role...WSY?

 

I'd take Dreadknights. They'll draw anti-tank and even S6/7 firepower off your Rhinos, and they kill anything they touch (unlike Repentia, who kinda fail against melee specialists or anything with a decent invul, like TWC or Wraiths). Due to the Nemesis Strikeforce, you don't even need to change your GK contingent much, you can literally just add 2x DK's in Heavy Support (the Libby and Strike squad tax fulfills the other requirements). 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

To many witches for my Tastes.

 

Truth be told though if you can Load a SR with Jacobus and 10 Repentia you will not be disapointed, great results every time.

You really should consider adding a few Immolators to your army though, Rhinos only do so much.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

To many witches for my Tastes.

 

Yeah but SIsters don't have a problem with sanctioned psykers. It's unclean or rogues they hate ;)

Truth be told though if you can Load a SR with Jacobus and 10 Repentia you will not be disapointed, great results every time.

 

Or it gets shot down by Interceptor/Skyfire before you can do anything. That's the issue with only 1-2 Flyers in an army, they're too easily focused. It's better just to beef up your ground presence, as it makes any AA tech worthless. Also, while I'm sure Repentia+Jacobus do horrible things to non-melee infantry, they're still just a bunch of T3 models who are one Shooting phase away from being shredded meat. GKT's and Dreadknights offer melee threat that other armies fear. It's something Sisters badly lack. 

You really should consider adding a few Immolators to your army though, Rhinos only do so much.

 

Yeah, mobile multi-meltas are great, as are heavy flamers for anti-infantry. Rhinos just shield you from a Shooting phase. 

[lt051]

I dont think there's really any downside to it vs your current rhino rush. I can't think of anything besides storm shield termis that could really take that assualt, and a SR pretty much guarantees you get the charge unless you have a meta full of anti flyer tau. I would much rather take that over rhinos with melee squads. Plus the raven fills some AA which is never a bad thing

[march10k]

Hmmm. Overall, you guys have given me food for thought.

One thing that I don't understand is the idea that rhinos are bad because they're AV11, yet immos are great in spite of being AV11. Is it not logical to think that all else being equal, the immolator is going to draw more enemy fire because it's more dangerous but no better protected? How can you say:

xenos will have no trouble killing the leading vehicles and thus clogging up your advance with dead Rhinos. You then disembark short of your preferred range, and eat another 2 shooting phases before getting into rapid-fire range.

about rhino-loads of battle sisters and then turn around and not apply the same scenario to immo-loads of dominions?!?

Now, I have had my plans messed up by enemy anti-tank shooting, but it's actually IG, more than xenos, that has the capacity to gut 7-9 rhino chassis in 1-2 turns, at least in my meta. But, as I was saying, if it's dying on my side of the board, a meltagunner is in far worse shape than a boltgunner, given the difference in maximum ranges, and immos are no less fragile, but draw far more fire.

That actually suggests a compromise...2-3 rhinoloads of battle sisters and 2-3 immo-loads of other squads. I can't bring myself to leave this fine lady out:

So I'm talking about a command squad and maybe two squads of dominions. Add to that a SR-load of priest-led (maybe Jacobus) repentia and the GKL and squad of strikes. Maybe a melee dreddy slung under the SR, as well? I don't want to go crazy on the GK contingent, otherwise it starts making sense to drop the sisters and just play GK...GK, as mentioned, are primarily daemon insurance (290 points for 5 strikes and a pimped libby), and the SR makes sense because it replaces the quad icarus on AA duty and the repentia rhino on transport duty while adding "assault vehicle" goodness...anything beyond that starts getting a little too heavy on the GK side for my tastes...but I'll think about it.

The SR wouldn't be the only flier, I also run this bad boy:

It doesn't bring redundancy, but it does give the enemy AA something to think about...

[*Furyou Miko]

The difference between Rhinos and Dominions in Immolators is simple: Dominion Immoolators Scout, so they start off much closer, get to drive much closer, and so are much further forward when they're destroyed and don't end up blocking you in.

 

There's also the fact that immolators might kill something, when a Rhino probably won't.

[march10k]

So...the scout move offsets the difference between 12" shooting and 24" shooting?  I suppose that makes good sense...even more so when you mix them, the immos will force the enemy to deal with them, drawing fire away from the rhinos.  

 

TBH, a big part of my dislike (besides the mentality that rhinos will be destroyed on the top of turn one, but immos will somehow not die and will go on to blow things up) is the short squads...even in power armor, I'm not fond of T3 models that come in groups smaller than 10, even more so when 4 of the 5-6 have special weapons...incidental enemy rhino stormbolter fire suddenly gets threatening!

[*Furyou Miko]

That's why Sisters have to be so aggressive in my opinion. We're moderately resilient, but we're still slanted massively towards close-range offence over defence, and conserving units until the opportune moment is highly risky as a result.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

One thing that I don't understand is the idea that rhinos are bad because they're AV11, yet immos are great in spite of being AV11.  Is it not logical to think that all else being equal, the immolator is going to draw more enemy fire because it's more dangerous but no better protected?  How can you say:

 

 about rhino-loads of battle sisters and then turn around and not apply the same scenario to immo-loads of dominions?!?

Because you shouldn't be investing so much in Battle Sister squads. They're bad. Like, worse than Tactical squad bad. Going MSU with Immolators isn't ideal, but at least you bring relevant firepower on a Fast platform (Rhinos aren't Fast either). Bring min 2x 5-man Sister squads for Troops, park them somewhere behind terrain in your DZ, hope they get ignored. 

Now, I have had my plans messed up by enemy anti-tank shooting, but it's actually IG, more than xenos, that has the capacity to gut 7-9 rhino chassis in 1-2 turns, at least in my meta.  But, as I was saying, if it's dying on my side of the board, a meltagunner is in far worse shape than a boltgunner, given the difference in maximum ranges, and immos are no less fragile, but draw far more fire.

 

Yes, but critical mass is what you want. By going for Immolator spam backed up by Exorcists (or dropping the Exorcists for DK's if you're bringing GK as Allies), you'll put down a bunch of Fast twin-linked multi-melta or heavy flamer. Rhinos just don't do anything besides buy you a shooting phase of maybe not losing the cargo. 

That actually suggests a compromise...2-3 rhinoloads of battle sisters and 2-3 immo-loads of other squads.  I can't bring myself to leave this fine lady out:

 

Throne no. Worst of both worlds. You've got a bunch of points tied up in useless ground infantry that lose firefights to most other armies Troops (points being equal). And you don't bring enough Immolators to be a threat, they're only an easily-focused nusiance. If your opponent has to kill 6 Immolators before they're all gone, that's different, But 3? That's like an average Tau or IG shooting phase. Necrons can do that with their basic infantry, nevermind their specialists. 

So I'm talking about a command squad and maybe two squads of dominions.  Add to that a SR-load of priest-led (maybe Jacobus) repentia and the GKL and squad of strikes.  Maybe a melee dreddy slung under the SR, as well?  I don't want to go crazy on the GK contingent, otherwise it starts making sense to drop the sisters and just play GK...GK, as mentioned, are primarily daemon insurance (290 points for 5 strikes and a pimped libby), and the SR makes sense because it replaces the quad icarus on AA duty and the repentia rhino on transport duty while adding "assault vehicle" goodness...anything beyond that starts getting a little too heavy on the GK side for my tastes...but I'll think about it.

 

Daemons will roll over your army and laugh. Sisters are actually in a really bad place against Daemons. You wanna get into close-range for all that flamer and melta fun, but Daemons out-melee threat you by a huge margin, and melta is nothing to them (the massed fire will do work, but they can summon more infantry). One lone Librarian won't do jack. You need to bring Dreadknights, or just not bother at all. 290 points could be spent on more Immolators. 

It doesn't bring redundancy, but it does give the enemy AA something to think about...

 

It's AV11, a single quad-gun can potentially take it out before you even get to shoot. This is what I mean, 2 Flyers isn't enough. Granted, Ravens at AV12 and with melta immunity are fairly durable, but you only have the one. It's too easily focused. Not to mention you're relying on Reserves, which is always a gamble. They also won't be able to charge the turn they arrive, so even without Interceptor you're risking an entire enemy Shooting phase of being in the air. Auto S10 AP2 hits if you Crash+Burn is painful as hell, even with invul saves on the Crusaders. 

The difference between Rhinos and Dominions in Immolators is simple: Dominion Immoolators Scout, so they start off much closer, get to drive much closer, and so are much further forward when they're destroyed and don't end up blocking you in.

 

There's also the fact that immolators might kill something, when a Rhino probably won't. 

 

Haha, I totally forgot that they can Scout too. Even bigger nail in the coffin of Rhinos. 

TBH, a big part of my dislike (besides the mentality that rhinos will be destroyed on the top of turn one, but immos will somehow not die and will go on to blow things up) is the short squads...even in power armor, I'm not fond of T3 models that come in groups smaller than 10, even more so when 4 of the 5-6 have special weapons...incidental enemy rhino stormbolter fire suddenly gets threatening!

 

MSU is how Sisters are currently played. If it's not your preference, fair enough, but you will notice the difference in games. Splitting up your melta threats across lots of small 5-woman squads is actually more dangerous, than clumping them into a handful of 10-strong units. You dilute enemy firepower, and you actually increase the odds of getting into your preferred short-range shooting scenario. Also, it helps against melee, as they can only eat 5 Sisters at best, and you can blunt charges into your lines by sacrificing closer units to keep say your tanks or Retributors alive. 

That's why Sisters have to be so aggressive in my opinion. We're moderately resilient, but we're still slanted massively towards close-range offence over defence, and conserving units until the opportune moment is highly risky as a result. 

 

It's really lame though. At least as GK players, we get an army of 2+ saves, with PA specialists we can take or leave, and a tonne of melee threat with decent shooting on the way in. Your entire army is T3 3+ armour with no meaningful melee ability, but you wanna be at 12" from the enemy normally. You're pushed into the meatgrinder, but without the old Faith powers that used to keep you alive (somewhat). It's really dumb IMO. 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Sisters don't really even like the sanctioned ones, they tolerate them because they must, thats part the reason the Sisters are not the keenest on marines but have close links with the Black Templars.

 

Well its one of those risks you take with flyers is that they will be shot down, at days end though its a risk you need to take, its meant to be war and by its nature it is not predictable.

 

The difference you have to think with Immolators over rhinos is that they are a threat, have use elsewhere after the troops jump out and will threaten the enemy big guns.

With rhinos you charge forwards and have a few destroyed getting your sisters close, with razorbacks its the same but you also kill enemy armour in the process.

 

 

I always loved the Avenger Strike fighters, problem, is though, it is a little soft defensivly speaking.

2 Hull points really sting.

 

 

You have to remember with squads in armour as well that 10 sisters in a rhino with no special weapons cost 155 Points Where as 5 Sisters in an Immolator cost 120 Points, those 35 extra points is enough to buy 3 sisters elsewhere so in essence you are trading 2 models only for a Twin Linked Multi Melta.

A good trade in my eyes.

 

 

You see with sisters lists you tend to have to go full infantry blob or full armoured core.

Personally Is common for me to run 10 tanks plus anti air and extras, only ones I have that can carry 10 sisters is the Repressors and I take them for their fire points.

At days end when you have 6 immolators and 2 Exorcists firing at you you tend to lose a good chunk of your own anti armour core before they can destroy the sisters in return.

 

 

 

Personally on the anti air front I like to take 2 quad linked lascannon turrents or a firestorm redoubt, the latter having room for me to stash my Retributors.

Also another good tip is a Callidus assassin, as they delay your foes reserves they could potentially see turn 3 before they get air support.

[*Furyou Miko]

Uh, Darius, what?

 

Immolators are not Fast, and Battle Sister squads are significantly better than Tactical Marines. I actually cannot agree with anything you posted.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Sisters don't really even like the sanctioned ones, they tolerate them because they must, thats part the reason the Sisters are not the keenest on marines but have close links with the Black Templars.

 

My understanding was that, like the Templars, they consider psykers tainted unless they are sanctioned by the Emperor. In which case, they defer to his sanction. That's why both forces use Navigators, Astropaths etc, but exclude them from their fighting ranks. Blind hate I don't think is the simplest explanation. Both of them have very good reasons to distrust psykers (one is obssessed with purity, the other was largely created as a witch-hunting force in part). 

Well its one of those risks you take with flyers is that they will be shot down, at days end though its a risk you need to take, its meant to be war and by its nature it is not predictable.

 

Agreed, but what I'm pointing out is that the risk in this case is quite high, perhaps unacceptably so. That's why if you wanna take Flyers, I'd recommend at least 3 if you can (preferably of the same type, to minimise focus on the most powerful one ie the Raven). But that then gets expensive...it's a real annoyance. I just feel its only fair to warn you now, if you fight any of the good AA armies (who are geared to blast 4+ Flyers out of the sky potentially). 

The difference you have to think with Immolators over rhinos is that they are a threat, have use elsewhere after the troops jump out and will threaten the enemy big guns.

With rhinos you charge forwards and have a few destroyed getting your sisters close, with razorbacks its the same but you also kill enemy armour in the process.

 

Well yeah, and that's kinda what I'm driving at. Spamming Immolators cuts down on costs (as you're only taking 5-woman squads), and you get more firepower. So, Rhinos really don't cut it. Maybe try Repressors? I hear they're pretty good at anti-infantry. 

I always loved the Avenger Strike fighters, problem, is though, it is a little soft defensivly speaking.

2 Hull points really sting.

 

Yeah it's really lame. I don't know why they do that, same for the Storm Talon and other 'light' flyers. I mean, you already give them AV11 or even AV10. No need to kick them while they're down. 

You have to remember with squads in armour as well that 10 sisters in a rhino with no special weapons cost 155 Points Where as 5 Sisters in an Immolator cost 120 Points, those 35 extra points is enough to buy 3 sisters elsewhere so in essence you are trading 2 models only for a Twin Linked Multi Melta.

A good trade in my eyes.

 

That's the real kicker I feel. Investing more points into Sisters quickly becomes a diminishing return, whereas more dakka is always a good thing (especially on AV11 hulls that require at least S5 to scratch). Again, AV11 isn't exactly hard to remove, but it's still harder than removing Sisters. 

You see with sisters lists you tend to have to go full infantry blob or full armoured core.

Personally Is common for me to run 10 tanks plus anti air and extras, only ones I have that can carry 10 sisters is the Repressors and I take them for their fire points.

At days end when you have 6 immolators and 2 Exorcists firing at you you tend to lose a good chunk of your own anti armour core before they can destroy the sisters in return.

 

Yeah that's probably what I'd fear most fighting against Sisters. Once you get above 6 hulls, enemy anti-tank isn't going to kill enough to matter, you're gonna get in range and kill something. Exorcists are kinda random, but I've had some really harsh games against triple Exorcist lists. It's a lot of S8 AP1 sometimes. 

Personally on the anti air front I like to take 2 quad linked lascannon turrents or a firestorm redoubt, the latter having room for me to stash my Retributors.

Also another good tip is a Callidus assassin, as they delay your foes reserves they could potentially see turn 3 before they get air support.

 

Kinda expensive, but I guess if you take Retributors it makes a good firebase. BS2 is what annoys me about ground emplacements, even if it is twin-linked. 

Immolators are not Fast

 

Coulda sworn...well anyway, they're still Scouting with Dominions, and they still bring firepower on a relatively cheap platform. Maybe I was thinking Fast Attack. 

Battle Sister squads are significantly better than Tactical Marines

 

In what parallel universe? Tac Marines at least have WS4, S4 and T4 (not to mention Chapter Traits thrown in for free, which usually give them a slight edge). Also, ATSKNF, wider special and heavy weapon options, about three times the transport options....

 

Look, I don't think Tacticals are worth taking in most lists (Scouts are better as a cheap unlock for Allies, Bikers are better as Troops in a CAD etc), but Sisters aren't even vaguely as good as arguably the worst infantry unit Marines get. Blood Angels even steal your thunder with heavy flamers on Tacs now (plus free 'Furious Charge'). It's not even a contest. In a firefight, Marines suffer less wounds and inflict more, and in melee it's grindy (power armour does stop 2/3rds of wounds for both) but they win again eventually. 

 

With the old Faith powers, Sisters had a definite edge with 3+ invul saves, or S5/I5 etc. That all existed in an age before shooty xenos could just blast Marines off the board (nevermind T3 3+ saves). Even the mech list we're all debating about isn't even that scary. Sure, it's annoying and will do damage, but over three Shooting phases you can expect to lose most of your vehicles, at which point you're down to infantry choices or whatever Allies you bring. It's why I'm advocating GK, specifically DK's. DK's demand attention, and even if they never kill a single model, they'll absorb entire armies firepower before they die. If they survive, they can handle things no Sister unit can. Add in Celestine and some Seraphim to harass their infantry, and that's a very aggressive assault package that will distract the enemy long enough for you to win on mission objectives. 

[Jacinda]

Uh, Darius, what?

Immolators are not Fast, and Battle Sister squads are significantly better than Tactical Marines. I actually cannot agree with anything you posted.

It's like the longer the post and the more nested the quotes the less sense it makes. I hit TL;DR real fast. I thought it was a troll; then I saw the Moderati tag ...

[*Furyou Miko]

In the parallel universe where this is a shooting game, and Sisters squads are the same at shooting as the more expensive tacticals, more resilient against everything that ignores their 3+ save (most anything AP3 is also S6+ anyway, so T3 doesn't matter), and once or twice a game are even better than Marines. The only 'good' weapon we're missing out on is plasma, and the extra bodies we can bring because of large squad sizes, and the extra melta we can bring because Dominions completely mitigates that without the chance of blowing ourselves up.

 

Sure, we're not as good as when we also has pseudo-atsknf and rending everywhere, but we still have a leg up over Tacticals.

[march10k]

Um....Avengers are not AV11...it's my understanding that immolators are not fast, but do get a scout move if taken as the dedicated transports of dominions.  

 

Anyway, it was not my intention to start a netlisting session for developing the "one true list" for Ard Boyz 2015.  The question was, given that I'm fielding repentia in a list with allied GKs, is it better to take one squad of them in an allied SR, or is it better to take two squads of them in rhinos (and two quad icarus VWBs)?

[*Furyou Miko]

If you're not putting them in an assault vehicle, why bother with the Grey Knights?

[Naminé]

Best options are Landraider transport or simply on foot with warlord jacobus... Anything else delays them a little too long to be as useful.

[grendal1989]

Best options are Landraider transport or simply on foot with warlord jacobus... Anything else delays them a little too long to be as useful.

I'm inclined to agree, its an additional firebase turn 1 as well.

[march10k]

I thought about the land raider...it's 50 points more and doesn't provide anti-air the way the SR does...but the LR potentially enables a turn 2 charge, while the SR is lucky to have the girls dash into the fray on turn 3...it's really not a tough call for me, though...150 points for the pair of quad icarus VWBs that the SR replaces but the LR doesn't, and the LR option literally costs twice as much!  

 

 

If you're not putting them in an assault vehicle, why bother with the Grey Knights?

 

 

As explained in the original post, a GK librarian (with obligatory strike squad) is a standard feature in all of my loyalist lists...as daemon insurance (and a ML3 diviner isn't wasted even if no daemons show up)

[Duke Danse Macabre]

They use them if they must but you have to remember that the Navigators etc are part of the Imperial Navy and not the order so even then they have no direct contact or link to them.

Besides there is a big differece between a navigator that is used as a tool to a witch that is allowed to come and go as they please like a librarian etc.

 

I agree with you on the flyers, these days its either go big or go home, truth be told though they are not the huge threat they were in 6th edition so you rarely see anti air spam these days.

 

Repressors are a good anti Infantry choice but they are costly at more than double to rhinos points even with the increased armour and weapons.

Truth be told though you take this option for the fire points and not so much the troop capacity.

 

The anti Air, if you take 2 turrets is 150 points.

That is 4 twin linked intercepting sky fire shots on an armour 14 base, Personally I feel they are a solid investment.

 

 

 

Where as i do Like SR's the GK varients missiles are not going to really help in an anti air role.

Take the Land Raider, Jacobus and a 10 Strong Repentia unit, for the repentia take a Repressor as a deadicated transport and let the GK's ride it into battle, they can swap car keys in deployment and they can rock forwards shooting Psycannons from its fire points before jumping out when they get close.

[*Furyou Miko]

Repressors don't cost double what Sororitas rhinos do. ;) I feel this bears mentioning. If you want Rhinos, you'll have to decide if a 6++ is worth 10 points.

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Repressors don't cost double what Sororitas rhinos do. I feel this bears mentioning. If you want Rhinos, you'll have to decide if a 6++ is worth 10 points.

No they don't... They cost just under double.

Used to the 5 point cheaper Space Marine Varient.