Dark Angels.... Dark Times. A fail-rep of a game vs orks

[Prot]

Oh what a nasty game I had....

I played 2 games vs. the same Ork opponent. One with my Dark Angels which was supposed to feature my Fire Raptor.

I conceded before the Fire Raptor came in. He uses a really sick squad of Ork Bikers. Every time I face them it is a real battle. I have beat it, but never with Dark Angels....

The way it works is he takes a Warboss with a lucky stik. For the unaware, the Luky stikk is the most powerful piece of wargear in the future universe. The emperor wasted his time creating armies of supermen, and Primarchs, and giant warmachines. He would have turned the galaxy to his knees over a weekend if he would have had this twig.

The Warboss rerolls a lot of crap. He has to fail three re-rolls in a phase for it to have ill effect (this is nearly impossible with anyone who posses the math skills of a 2 year old).

Even when I shoot at the closest model (often the FNP Pain Boy) he will 'reverse' Look out Sir and try to take all wounds on the warboss because he really is nearly impossible to kill. He'll get saves, or jink, and then re-rolls, then Feel No Pain. He is toughness 6 and has a claw. He sits in a squad of 10 Nob bikers and the magic stick gives the squad +1 WS so they are WS5.

Add in a FnP Pain boy and the squad is 12 men big, and nasty as heck.

Now I've played this list, or a variant of it against a few opponents and I knew pulling out a Dark Angel list the odds were against me (he still has 5 trukks full of boyz, 10 lootas, artillery for AA, a Dakka jet, and Tank Bustas).

So I deployed like so and won first turn:

He fails to steal initiative, and I fire what I can from my lacannon dev squad, 2 razorbacks, and Bastion.... But I know the elephant in the room is the Nob Biker squad.... so I go all in....

- Belail drops. The Knights zoom up, hit the bikers with the Grenadelauncher reducing them to toughness 4. The plasma talons can't get through Jink and Feel No Pain.

- Belial's 10 terminators take 2 twin linked Cyclone shots at the 10 lootas in the battlewagon.... and fail to take it down (two hullpoints gone).

- The rest of the terminators add to the Black Knights firepower..... twin linking all shots into the Warboss squad... one bike dies after 4+/5++.

The next turn the warboss challenges Belial, kills him in one shot. The rest of the bikers and fists kill all terminators.

Bikes are shot up.

His 11 remaining bikes are surrounding objective points. I do the math and I've lost about 700 pts in a turn.

I concede as he has warlord, first blood, 3 objective points.

Wow. That's my shortest game of 7th! I played again with my Ultra's and did a lot better, but still lost. The DA I took never had a shot though. I just thought I would do a quick batrep instead of just doing my 'wins'.

I never did get to try the Fire Raptor but there's no way it could have turned this disaster around. :)

[aura_enchanted]

The lukky stick however is over ridden by instant death, if you can ID him a failed save is a failed save and the warboss dies.

 

This is a fine example of where the mhoc would of been useful because if it had been a 6 a single failed saving set is enough to kill him and a power sword is strikes at I so it would go first regardless of pk.

 

With an ork warboss close combat is a very big gamble if you can't strike at initiative as he's strong enough that his weapon id's anyway.

 

another thing that might have been smart would of been a dark talon because blind basically declaws a warboss totally. Ws and bs 1 basically robs him of his combat effectiveness and he becomes the ablative wounds on a squad of mediocre units (for orks).

 

I do however think that your list was a little different and I appreciate that, New idea are few and far between in our codex I feel

[depthcharge12]

Maybe take a land raider redeemer to ignore the cover saves? Two big flame storm templates at S6 AP3 ignores cover is pretty great against them, not to mention the assault cannon and the ability to take a MM and use PoTMS to kill a tank.

 

Your opponents bikes will be moving towards you anyway and you can have a terminator squad with an HQ (maybe a Libby or Ezekiel in this case?) hop out to assault the bikes after flaming them.

 

I don't know what your list looks like, but maybe take some Greenwing. Command squad with bolters and banner of devastation and two 10 man bolter tacticals. That's about 100 bolter shots, which should put a dent in that unit.

[Varizel]

Ouch.... that sucks Prot. For Nob Bikerz though, even though i never fought anybody taking more than 6 (+2 with warboss and painboyz for a total of 8)... usually they died pretty bad to the bane of Orkz, Deathwing Knights led by an Int Chaplain... if the knights can catch them. Warboss also has that same setup you had and yes... the lucky stick gotta be the best artifact in the game for so cheap too. But do remember though, that Lucky Stick doesn't allow rerolls on FnP.

[Prot]

The lukky stick however is over ridden by instant death, if you can ID him a failed save is a failed save and the warboss dies.

 

This is a fine example of where the mhoc would of been useful because if it had been a 6 a single failed saving set is enough to kill him and a power sword is strikes at I so it would go first regardless of pk.

 

With an ork warboss close combat is a very big gamble if you can't strike at initiative as he's strong enough that his weapon id's anyway.

 

another thing that might have been smart would of been a dark talon because blind basically declaws a warboss totally. Ws and bs 1 basically robs him of his combat effectiveness and he becomes the ablative wounds on a squad of mediocre units (for orks).

 

I do however think that your list was a little different and I appreciate that, New idea are few and far between in our codex I feel

 

Not sure what the mhoc acronym is... so I'm not sure how I could have Instant Killed him? 

 

I tried something different... paid the price. A talon is something I feel is so situation, I'm just not sure it has a place in my 'normal' games and as I play against various opponents, I honestly think the Fire Raptor (which never made it out of reserves) is superior.

Maybe take a land raider redeemer to ignore the cover saves? Two big flame storm templates at S6 AP3 ignores cover is pretty great against them, not to mention the assault cannon and the ability to take a MM and use PoTMS to kill a tank.

 

Your opponents bikes will be moving towards you anyway and you can have a terminator squad with an HQ (maybe a Libby or Ezekiel in this case?) hop out to assault the bikes after flaming them.

 

I don't know what your list looks like, but maybe take some Greenwing. Command squad with bolters and banner of devastation and two 10 man bolter tacticals. That's about 100 bolter shots, which should put a dent in that unit.

 

Actually my list or the workings of was a combined effort of trying new things (fire raptor) and advice from the forum. See the post on fitting a fire raptor into my Dark Angels for the discussion. (There was 2 greenwing squads with Missile launchers in 2 razorbacks with las/plas and assault cannon.) 7 Devs with 4 lascannons sat in the Bastion while a bolter dude handled Quad gun duties.

 

Ouch.... that sucks Prot. For Nob Bikerz though, even though i never fought anybody taking more than 6 (+2 with warboss and painboyz for a total of 8)... usually they died pretty bad to the bane of Orkz, Deathwing Knights led by an Int Chaplain... if the knights can catch them. Warboss also has that same setup you had and yes... the lucky stick gotta be the best artifact in the game for so cheap too. But do remember though, that Lucky Stick doesn't allow rerolls on FnP.

 

Right. He never did use the stick for FnP. 

 

Obviously I took a big chance, but calculated the odds, but obviously did not think that 10 termies, Belial, 5 Black Knights and the rest of my shooting would amount to a total of 1 dead biker.

 

I did make a post on the astartes forum about my thoughts on Terminators. In a nutshell I feel they represent a very potent part of the Emperor's forces in fiction but fail miserably in this state of 7th edition. (I compare a Terminator to a Decurion Wraith (Which I have played a lot as they are my xenos army)).

 

I have played against 2 guys here who use this squad, and too many times the game is lost to that squad. So I went straight for their throat, and the gamble backfired. 

 

I do use a Redeemer in my Ultramarine army. However, it always seems my Dark Angels are over pointed, and they seem to lose the Landraider when I make my final cuts to the list because with DA it is so incredibly easy to have a small model count and a pile of elite stuff that can be VERY situational. 

[Varizel]

mhoc = monster slayer(hunter) of caliban?

For the FnP part, just reminding buddy . Sadly normal termie kinda sux even with thunder hammer against that many Nob Bikerz. The T5 makes them durable enough and eligible for FnP. Anyhow i digress, my experience so far that DWK works swell assuming i can catch them.

[aura_enchanted]

mhoc = monster slayer(hunter) of caliban?

For the FnP part, just reminding buddy . Sadly normal termie kinda sux even with thunder hammer against that many Nob Bikerz. The T5 makes them durable enough and eligible for FnP. Anyhow i digress, my experience so far that DWK works swell assuming i can catch them.

Yea it's easier than typing monster hunter/slayer of caliban on my smartphone keypad which is currently my only means of browsing the internet as due to financial difficulties I've had to end my services and begin the painful process of moving back in with family because I can't afford to live in my apartment anymore (I lost my job back in nov and since then I've only managed to get part time work)

I also use protu in place of the predi. relic of the unforgiven.

[deathspectersgt7]

OUCH!!!!!

[Prot]

I  have to be honest, for a long time in Maelstrom I felt like I could beat just about anything ( let's say anything below the latest greatest, tournie lists) with my Dark Angels.

 

Some of you may recall when I moved off of my Ravenwing army for about a year, I played a very 'experimental' army for myself revolving around maximizing Azrael and Ezekiel for 7th edition Maelstrom in pods and I did report several of those games here.

 

Playing my Necron army, and against some of the nastier builds for 7th, I have to wonder if I can just be competitive with the army now. My group has 'caught up'. Where I used to actually 'help' them in Maelstrom (because so many of them were still just playing 6th edition with markers), now I find I'm the one getting clobbered....

 

It's funny how a meta changes.

 

I'm not saying I'm any tactical genius but I do know some of the people I play do in fact Netlist. So I'll figure out my own goofy angle on an army (trust me, the first games I had Az sitting on FNP objectives for a squad of Vets with Ezekiel it was really annoying to people I play, now it's just a non-factor).

 

We are starting a campaign. It will be of smaller point values and rewards 'new' units, and painted units. I look at this as an opportunity to start something new, or perhaps rejuvenate an old army. Give it new life, a new HQ perhaps, use units that have never been used, etc. 

 

Last night I spent about 2-3 hours going through my favorite 3 codexes and I found it very hard to put together something (especially at less than 1K) for my DA. 

 

I'll have to think about this and see if I'm missing something.... I do know Termies are off the table. And bikes are pretty hard at 750 so we'll see what the codex has to offer outside of those two entries. ;)

[Shubniggurath]

I really feel Dark Angels are great at 3k+...which personally I don't play really often! Under 1k, there's not much we can do, except fielding a few marines who don't have anything special except Grim Resolve. 

 

At 750, I'd probably field 1 lvl 1 libby on bike, 6 Black Knights, 2 rhinos with 5 marines (plasma, combi-plasma) and 1 Mortis with 2 lascannons. It's a small but compact army, that can deal quite easily with light to medium armor (should be any AV14 at 750), flyers and light to heavy infantry. 

[shabbadoo]

- Belial's 10 terminators take 2 twin linked Cyclone shots at the 10 lootas in the battlewagon.... and fail to take it down (two hullpoints gone).

CMLs are AP 3, and they can't take down a Battlewagon except by taking off every one of its 4 Hull Points (even 4 CML shots are not likely to do that). If your goal was to take it down, you should have fired something AP 1 or 2 at it and saved the CMLs for the Nob bikers which (in conjunction with the BK grenade launcher effect) they would cause Instant Death to if they got through the Jink/FNP. The Nob bikers were the real threat anyways. For anti-amor, there are only two solutions- massed higher Str firepower that strips away Hull Points or AP 1 and 2 weapons which can potentially take vehicles down in one shot. Either way, if you are not going to fully commit, don't waste the shots.

Low point campaigns are definitley fun. Best advice- avoid uber characters. They suck up points and can't fulfill all that many objectives (the bulk of your "amy" will do that). Numbers are very big in small games, so IG, Orks, and Tyranids will be very dangerous if their players build them as horde forces. I agree that you should leave out the Terminators and bikes. Even 1,000 point games are sort of on the small side for them.

Fun, with some variety:

65- Librarian: no addtional wargear

100- Dreadnought: multi-melta, stormbolter

205- (10) Tactical Squad: Vet. Sgt. w/powerfist; meltagun, lascannon

35- Rhino

185- (10) Tactical Squad: Vet. Sgt. w/power weapon; flamer, missile launcher

35- Rhino

125- Vindicator

-----------------------------------

750 points

Or...

70- Librarian: meltabombs

100- Dreadnought: multi-melta

205- (10) Tactical Squad: Vet. Sgt. w/powerfist; meltagun, lascannon

35- Rhino

190- (10) Tactical Squad: Vet. Sgt. w/power weapon, melta-bombs; flamer, missile launcher

85- Ravenwing Land Speeder Typhoon: multi-melta

65- Whirlwind

-----------------------------------

750 points

In either case, the Librarian goes with the Vet. Sgt. w/powerfist & meltagun Combat Squad, and all the Tactical Squads should Combat Squad (the close assault Combat Squads go in the Rhinos in either list).

Now I kinda want to see if our game club wants to do small campaign too.

[Prot]

Actually I had side shots with the cml and it is open topped. I had the secondary goal of the targeting was to at least get a stun result which I did

that many shots even at terminators or the bikes would have very likely made an impact.

 

I like your lists and will definitely consider them as I'm really undecided on what to do about this.

[Varizel]

750 pts game.... how about?

 

Librarian, displacer field, force axe

5 men Tactical Squad, combi melta, meltagun * 2

Razorback TL Lascannon * 2

5 men Assault Marines with 2 flamers in a Rhino

Whirlwind * 2

Predator Destructor with HB Sponsons

 

Libby goes with the Assault Squad... against hordes i would even choose the pyromancy discipline for 3 flamers goodness. Plenty of firepower to deal with hordes, and enough to take out tanks. Don't have a lot of staying power though due to only 16 boots total, plenty of armor though for 750 games that most peeps are overwhelmed by the amount of it. 

[Prot]

It's interesting to see....

 

That at 750 pts I make several lists with my main armies.... Some lists cater to lower points better than others, but I have to admit it seems really hard to make a 'Dark Angels' list at this level and leverage anything special about the chapter. Without chapter tactics, there is not much that a Tactical brings compared to let's say my Ultra's.... or even cheap, fearless cultists in my chaos...

 

Necrons are straightforward and with the new dex might be the easiest, strangely enough, to make at 750 because of the lack of choice....

 

The DA without a named HQ or bikes or termies *feel* very... plain.

[aura_enchanted]

It's interesting to see....

 

That at 750 pts I make several lists with my main armies.... Some lists cater to lower points better than others, but I have to admit it seems really hard to make a 'Dark Angels' list at this level and leverage anything special about the chapter. Without chapter tactics, there is not much that a Tactical brings compared to let's say my Ultra's.... or even cheap, fearless cultists in my chaos...

 

Necrons are straightforward and with the new dex might be the easiest, strangely enough, to make at 750 because of the lack of choice....

 

The DA without a named HQ or bikes or termies *feel* very... plain.

Which would be the reality of all marine armies I'm afraid, if you haven't looked around there's nothing terribly special beyond grav marines can do at 750pts, sure the thunderfire is 110 I guess there's that but it's hardly an improvement over our codex, the exceptions to the rule really only are space wolves which are so different they might as well live in another post code, and the blood angels who up until now couldn't feel special in small point games anyway.

 

In addition even at medium point games you can do thing to make angels feel special without overloading your list with termites and bikes. At 1500 I have plenty of special units in my army, And I don't even own a belial or a sammael. I do however posess asmodai and big zeke

[Prot]

Oh Blood Angels are always -very- special... just ask them. ;)

 

I definitely agree it's hard to make something feel... 'special' at 750 pts but the ultra's do have very good chapter tactics. Nothing over the top but hey, having re-rolls to hit in shooting for a turn is pretty nice at 750. So is snap fire re-rolls.... even the assault is slightly usable.

 

I guess part of the issue I'm having is my own problem of identifying Dark Angels as a Tactical marine based army. And admittedly this is my own fault.

[Solrac]

I think the answer to this bike squad is big group of DWK in an LRC supported by Black Knights to throw in a RAD grenade before they charge. Even if the boss challenges you just decline, just means your Knight Master won't attack and you'll still have 5+ Knights using Smite mode. Take any precision hits against the warboss first and he'll just get insta killed. If you wan't to make sure you get max hits just have a bare bones chappy in there for re-rolls.

[shabbadoo]

You could always take a Command Squad with the Standard of Devastation and as many marines with bolters as you can.

65- Librarian

165- (5) Command Squad: Standard of Devastation

100- Dreadnought: multi-melta

150- (10) Tactical Squad: Sgt. w/combi-plasma

80- (5) Tactical Squad: Sgt. w/combi-plasma

125- Vindicator

65- Whirlwind

80 bolter shots a turn, plus the other stuff. A bit too wrong at 750 points? Perhaps. The Dreadnought is your uber character killer, but the Librarian has a chance to do that too. Our Chapter Trait is all but useless (Morale being such a non-factor in 40K), except in close combat (and even then only for non-Fearless units), but people need to learn to love Greenwing again because it really is what it is all about at lower point games, and is the core of the Dark Angels. I find that I just like seeing that Dark Angels Green power armor out there kicking arse and taking names.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Shabadoo, you name 2 different standards, none of which give the 4x firepower for bolters. ;) :P The math is probaly off I wonder.

[Pigshead]

At 750 I find the following works pretty well against Chaos, Marines and Orks, but struggles with demons and necrons.

libby on a bike, displacer field, melta bomb,
3 black knights, ravenwing banner
6 man Tactical squad in a las-plas razorback, melta gun
6 man Tactical squad in a las-plas razorback, plasma gun
Devastators squad with missile launchers

I sometimes switch out the devs for a dread or a couple of typhoons, depending on what I suspect I will face.

[Solrac]

Btw Prot stop changing your Avatar its making me dizzy :P

[Prot]

This might be crazy, but thinking of all the advice above I just had a thought:

 

Libby on Bike (2WC) : 150

 

RW Command Squad: 250(!)

5 bikes, Apothecary (FNP could be HUGE at this level... )

Company Champion (Hey I Have the mode and for a measily 5 pts maybe the bugger wins a challenge to save the Libby before hit and run?)

Grenade launcher.

 

Tactical squad x 6: Missile Launcher

Razorback Twin Las/Plas: 174

 

Tactical squad x6: Missile Launcher

Razorback Twin Assault Cannon: 174

 

IF I took this through the campaign I could eventually get a Sicaran tank in here (was going to be used for Ultra's) and the Fire Raptor. But as it is this list would force me to do 12 more green wing and finally paint 2 Razorbacks. Also... finish my Ravenwing Command squad.

 

Question is... could this catch people off guard? Or is it too small even at 750?

 

I like the RW CMD Squad because at least this way the list 'feels' Dark Angelish rather than 'marines with no usable command traits'.

 

Given this list, what Pysker powers would you go for?

[TheKingofBadgers]

I've been thinking a lot about DA in games below 1000 Points recently, especially given I play DW for the most part.

 

I like your list Prot; I came up with something broadly similar myself. The most well rounded (I think?) list I've been able to think up so far for 750 points is this:

 

 

Librarian: PFG, Bike - 115

 

RW Command Squad: 5 Members, Apothecary, Grenade Launcher - 230

 

Tactical Squad 1 - 8 Members, Meltagun, Combi-Melta, Rhino - 167

 

Tactical Squad 2 - 8 Members, Meltagun, Combi-Melta, Rhino - 167

 

Whirlwind - 65

 

Total - 744

 

 

5 Points left over for RWCS Champion or an auspex/melta bombs for the Lib

 

I think it covers most things you're likely to encounter, with 22 bodies and 3 vehicles on the field. RWCS with Apoth and PFG make for a decently survivable pseudo-Deathstar unit that can put out good firepower. I'd run the lib with the H-Flamer power or Psychic Shriek depending on the opponent so he can be split off when the RW make a charge and still provide value. The tac squads and whirlwind have a good amount of anti-infantry between them and the meltaguns are nice incase someone decides to be 'that guy' and bring a knight or something to that effect.

 

The RWCS adds a nice DA feel and the list takes advantage of some unique wargear for the Librarian.

[Epher]

I am new to this but against this vial squad of bikers and their War Boss wouldn't a Librarian using Psychic Shriek (Telepathy Primaris Power) be effective?  The caster rolls 3D6 against the target's leadership and the target takes the difference in wounds.  No cover saves and no armour saves.  That would leave FnP. With 2 level two Librarians, or even bring out Big Zeke, that would give a max of 10 or 11 warp charges.  The bikers could also jink as it is a witchfire power thus making them harder to hit. 

 

War Bosses have a leadership of 8 and all you would need are at least 3x 3's to let the wounds roll in.  It states that it ignores cover and armour saves.  Therefore, they would be allowed invulnerable saves and FnP.  Am I reading into that right?

 

Thoughts?

[Pigshead]

I've never really bothered with the apothecary much, I'm far too unlucky with dice to ever get the roll that makes it worth taking, but the champion is a must have at 5 points. The grenade launcher is also pretty nice, and i've lost count of the number of times it's hit two ork squads with one shot due to poor placement.

As for psyker powers, I've been dabbling with telepathy lately, after playing pretty much all of 6th with Divination, and had great success with Invisibility, shrouding, and psychic shriek. I've also had terrible luck with Black Knights in the last two games I played, so I should probably shut up before I get all emotional and start to try to talk you out of using them.