Dark Angels.... Dark Times. A fail-rep of a game vs orks

[Prot]

I am new to this but against this vial squad of bikers and their War Boss wouldn't a Librarian using Psychic Shriek (Telepathy Primaris Power) be effective?  The caster rolls 3D6 against the target's leadership and the target takes the difference in wounds.  No cover saves and no armour saves.  That would leave FnP. With 2 level two Librarians, or even bring out Big Zeke, that would give a max of 10 or 11 warp charges.  The bikers could also jink as it is a witchfire power thus making them harder to hit. 

 

War Bosses have a leadership of 8 and all you would need are at least 3x 3's to let the wounds roll in.  It states that it ignores cover and armour saves.  Therefore, they would be allowed invulnerable saves and FnP.  Am I reading into that right?

 

Thoughts?

 

Actually it's funny you mention this. That same night I played him again because I conceded so early after the 1st turn devastation. I pulled out my Ultramarines and Tigurius was in the list with Terminators. His roll was to give the Termies Invis, however even with his re-roll I failed to get it!

 

In fact his luck was so bad that night, the only power of use he had was actually Psychic Shriek. Since it is only 18" and I don't care to get him into CC, I only had 2 uses of Shriek... The first time all that was in range was a unit of crappy AA Ork artillery, but I did cause 2 wounds on Leadership 7 (horrible I know).

 

Next turn, sure enough, I got close enough to the biker squad that I let them have it. I passed the test, then rolled my 3 D6, it was a 1+1+2= 4. The price for such incredible failure?  I was laughed at, and then the terminator squad and Tigurius were rushed by the Bike squad and smashed to bits. 

 

Psychic stuff is so fickle in this edition. When 7th first came out I thought the psychic phase was going to be THE phase of the game. It turns out only 2-3 armies can really pull it off with any sense of reliability. The rest of us are kind of toying with it, but never relying on it.

 

The closest I get? Probably my Crimson Slaughter with Balestar of Maonon (rerolling all tests), or Tigurius with his re-rolls but again I just never have the dice to pull anything off... I can't even remember the last time I used "force". lol

 

In hindsight Tigurius with a (max level) 2 psycher would be the way but Ultra are always hurting for close combat... it's a real catch. 

 

If Ezekeil could take a bike, that would be sweet, I'd take 2 psykers then. (but still far from guaranteeing anything).

 

 

I've never really bothered with the apothecary much, I'm far too unlucky with dice to ever get the roll that makes it worth taking, but the champion is a must have at 5 points. The grenade launcher is also pretty nice, and i've lost count of the number of times it's hit two ork squads with one shot due to poor placement.

 

As for psyker powers, I've been dabbling with telepathy lately, after playing pretty much all of 6th with Divination, and had great success with Invisibility, shrouding, and psychic shriek. I've also had terrible luck with Black Knights in the last two games I played, so I should probably shut up before I get all emotional and start to try to talk you out of using them.

 

The recent apothecary stuff comes from me playing my Necrons. I know that FnP is not comparable or as strong as Reanimation Protocols however, playing Necrons over the past weeks I've learned the immense value of those times you DO get on a streak and start rolling those 5++. 

 

One of my best Dark Angel "fun" lists was discovered by accident. Playing Maelstrom I took Az and Ez in a pod, every game for a while. I let Az pick the trait that gives the squad (in my case it was always Vets) a FnP roll as long as Az is within 3" of an objective in the game.

 

Of course it's fickle... but some times that 3+ then 5++ feels like a welfare version of Reanimation Protocols but when it works at that key moment, it can be that item that actually turns a game for you. 

 

I dunno about the Black Knights. If I go DA for this campaign, I just wanted to make the list (even a 750 feel like Dark Angels).

[shabbadoo]

Haha! I listed every standard name but the right one! Fixed.

As to your list, Prot, 20 models total in a 750 point list will get slaughtered by the most basic of horde forces with little effort. Lists with moderate numbers should be able to cripple its effectivensss without much effort as well. Play with an army of chum, and enjoy a whole new world of fun. The only way your lsit will have much of a chance is if you play with a group of folks who have a prediliction for building small, elte armies. Then it will likely do well enough. If I were playing my Orks in your group, here is an exmaple of what I would take to fight anyone and everyone:

75- Big Mek: mega armor, kustom mega-blasta, power klaw.

150- (20) Shoota Boyz: 2 big shootas.

80- (20) Gretchin: (2) runtherders w/grabba stikk, slugga, stikkbombs, squighound

100- (10) Slugga Boyz: Nob w/power klaw, boss pole (Big Mek goes with these guys)

35- Wartrukk: rokkit launcha

140- (10) Lootas (or 10 Tankbustas w/2 bomb squigs if the group fields lots of armor; the cost is the same)

35- Wartrukk: rokkit launcha

54- (3) Mek Guns: 3 kannons

80- Deff Dread: 2 big shootas

-----------------------------------------------

749 points (61 Infantry, 3 Artillery, 3 Vehicles)

Ouch! A good number of units to do things, a whole mess of bodies to suck up punishment, and the capability to unleash a storm of fire/close combat attacks. Yep, I think fielding that would make somebody's sphincter pucker just a lil' bit. :p Not knowing the group you play with, I would choose to be prepared for something like that. It is actually very fun to play small games with lots of "chum" units, and the Greenwing are the Dark Angels' "chum" units. W'eve done three game club tournaments of 1,000 points or less in the past, and they were all a blast- quick, fun games not all wound up in the all too common beard cheese.

[Gillyfish]

I haven't played in a while, but I'm assuming a Vindicator or two wouldn't work in this instance?

[Prot]

Haha! I listed every standard name but the right one! Fixed.

As to your list, Prot, 20 models total in a 750 point list will get slaughtered by the most basic of horde forces with little effort. Lists with moderate numbers should be able to cripple its effectivensss without much effort as well. Play with an army of chum, and enjoy a whole new world of fun. The only way your lsit will have much of a chance is if you play with a group of folks who have a prediliction for building small, elte armies. Then it will likely do well enough. If I were playing my Orks in your group, here is an exmaple of what I would take to fight anyone and everyone:

75- Big Mek: mega armor, kustom mega-blasta, power klaw.

150- (20) Shoota Boyz: 2 big shootas.

80- (20) Gretchin: (2) runtherders w/grabba stikk, slugga, stikkbombs, squighound

100- (10) Slugga Boyz: Nob w/power klaw, boss pole (Big Mek goes with these guys)

35- Wartrukk: rokkit launcha

140- (10) Lootas (or 10 Tankbustas w/2 bomb squigs if the group fields lots of armor; the cost is the same)

35- Wartrukk: rokkit launcha

54- (3) Mek Guns: 3 kannons

80- Deff Dread: 2 big shootas

-----------------------------------------------

749 points (61 Infantry, 3 Artillery, 3 Vehicles)

Ouch! A good number of units to do things, a whole mess of bodies to suck up punishment, and the capability to unleash a storm of fire/close combat attacks. Yep, I think fielding that would make somebody's sphincter pucker just a lil' bit. Not knowing the group you play with, I would choose to be prepared for something like that. It is actually very fun to play small games with lots of "chum" units, and the Greenwing are the Dark Angels' "chum" units. W'eve done three game club tournaments of 1,000 points or less in the past, and they were all a blast- quick, fun games not all wound up in the all too common beard cheese.

Ugh. You make me want to just pick up my Necrons for this campaign. lol

Okay I keep going back and forth. Not only between armies, but lists. To be honest I do feel we're always going to be outnumbered. The trick is to play the strategy, and units that can help balance that out. I know a few good Grey Knight players for instance that are always out numbered and they relish a horde opponent. I'm not saying I have that sort of list figured out, but I accept that the Ork guys and even the Astra guys will have the sort of list you're talking about.

Anti Horde Units at 750:

Dark Angels edition:

- Whirlwind

- Drop Pod w/Deathwind Launchers

- Darktalon blast, hurricane, (a little pricey?)

The above, plus below for my Ultra's:

- Ironclad Dread with dual Heavy flamer in a Deathwind Pod

- Thunderfire Cannon

- Tacticals w/Tactical Doctrine (re-roll all misses (rest of army re-rolls 1's)

- Stormtalon w/twinAssault cannons, missiles. (at 750 actually this could be huge with strafe)

My Crimson Slaughter might be the most handicaped in this arena with 'marines' however:

- Cultists x a billion.

- very effective, cheap HQ's (Khârn in cultists?)

All of these examples have access to:

- bolters (obviously!)

- flamers

But out of all of the above, I like to think the Dark Angels can make up those numbers in other ways... resilience + maneuvering + specialty items.

I still actually think a Black Knight squad is 'better' than a Gravitron Ultra marine squad. The dakka banner, or FnP banner can possibly be a force multiplier.

I think perhaps the trick is picking 1 such unit. And then keeping the rest of the army VERY cheap. The problem with DA is making them feel like DA at this point level since they are kind of like Grey Knights in the way they want to go elite, quickly. and the Greenwing really aren't as good as 'blue wing' imo. (Honestly about half the time I use the chapter tactics it does diddly, but at this point level twin linking all your tacticals could be huge.)

Right now I have an expensive DA HQ Ravenwing squad I've been working on. I don't know exactly the best way to maximize it while leaving room for everything else to function in the army....

I haven't played in a while, but I'm assuming a Vindicator or two wouldn't work in this instance?

It's not a bad idea, but I'm afraid at this point level it soaks up a lot in a unit that can't move fast enough and do damage since half the games will be Maelstrom, I am trying to keep the entire army (minus something cheap like a Whirlwind) able to grab anything since units will be in low count for objectives.... Not a bad idea though, but I think I have one in a box, not even built!

++++EDIT++++

Check this out... I have dropped ego, and as many toys at the door as I could and I truly believe this might be the very best 750 pts I can build *while* trying to retain the feel of "Dark Angels":

HQ:

Libby on Bike w/Meltabombs: 90 pts

(I always defaulted to adding a Warpcharge... way too expensive. This is cheap like dirt now.)

Ravenwing Command Squad x3: 1 Co. Champion, 1 RW Grenade Launcher: 125 pts

(I realize in making 'min-maxed' Ultramarine biker lists, I can use 3 bikers, get the grenade, and have my Talons too.... Libby goes here of course.)

Troops:

Tactical Squad x5: Missile Launcher, Razorback w/Twin Assault Cannons: 160 pts.

Tactical Squad x5: Meltagun, Combi-Melta, Drop Pod w/Deathwind Assault Launcher: 140 pts.

Heavy:

Whirlwind: 65 pts.

Fast:

Assault Squad x 5, 2 flamers: 95 pts.

Ravenwing Support - Landspeeder w/Typhoon Launcher: 75 pts.

750 pts Total.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This to me is the first DA list at 750 pts I've made that feels like I'm putting strategy before 'cool factor' while still having the fun factor of the Ravenwing.

What power should I grab for the Libby? Obviously I'll be lucky to get it off even once! I guess I should pick my 'favorite primaris' in this case? He'll be with the bikes, and they have anti-toughness covered so perhaps anti horde?

The list covers everything: Assault, speed, ObSec, armour, indirect, range, and hordes. I struggled to check my ego and reduce nearly ALL the toys from the RW command squad to get it at a small, but hopefully still useful point level.

Subtleties include: getting dual melta-shots in turn one via drop pod, and the Deathwind is something I really believe in. At this point level it could be devastating. Razorback is dual purpose obviously moving it has to, but hiding the Whirlwind if it needs to.

The Assault squad was the last addition. I heavily debated it, but the mix of mobility, anti-horde, and backing up a tactical squad if it gets in trouble was just too good to pass up at a measly 95 pts. In truth I have an old box of these assault guys I've never put together but now I see them at 95 pts and think wow... why have I never tried these guys before? (answer: too busy loading up on RW and DW toys, and shooting myself in the foot?)

Anyway, I think that covers it unless I'm missing something. It's embarassing to admit but if I go with this list I have a LOT to assemble. (there is no proxying in the campaign beyond your typical weapon mounts, etc.) I have to assemble 2 normal command squad bikes, finish my Libby Bike conversion (ugh), and put together a Combi-melta Sargent! ... wow almost forgot the assault squad... damn I better get at it.

[SnakeChisler]

I always take a couple of Land Speeders with 2 HB's in these sort of lists

 

60 points apiece and they rarely if ever get looked at but provide a really steady long range hit which chips away at the opponent, I've found that taking the Typhoon variant in smaller point games ensures they get a serious glance and sorted out a lot more promptly.

 

I guess its perception, there also good at zipping onto backfield objectives

 

I couldn't give up my Ravenwing Command squad with Apoth I'd need a couple of months therapy and withdrawal consoling before I could even bear to write the list ;)   

[Prot]

60 points doesn't seem bad.... either does 65 for a Whirlwind though... nor does just 10 more points for a Hvy Bolter AND 2 missile shots. I honestly don't have the models with just the Hvy Bolters anyway. :) I do get what you're saying though.

 

I know what you mean about the RW Command and no Apothecary. It feels like riding around the bike squad with no underwear on... when the breeze lifts up that robe, it can feel mighty uncomfortable. I've never not used the Apoth OR the Fortitude banner. I'll have neither in this game.

 

But I am playing fairly competitive people. I will get hammerd if I toy up the list too much. Shabbadoo made a very good point. I will very likely be facing lists like that too, plus nids... 

 

As the bike squad shrinks, so does the need for the Apoth. I have enough assault in this little list to hopefully compensate for it. 

 

Any thoughts on what powers to use for the Libby (WC1 only this game.)?

 

I actually have 4 games pending this week! I want to use DA for all 4 but to keep things simple, and streamlined I'm trying to make this 750 into an 1850 for the other 2 games..... I posted a list in the list section if anyone wants to see/comment on it.

 

The first of those 4 games is tomorrow afternoon... which means as I have today off work... I got a LOT of stuff to put together! Time to grab an audio book and get to it!

[DarkAngeal]

Coming a little late to the brainstorm here, but it seems like some heavy flamers can solve all of your problems here. S5 AP4 templates should be great for shredding hoardes of bikers, or a biker deathstar or anything that jinks really. Go ahead and deepstrike them with Belial, position your flamers perfectly, twinlink them into the group, reroll all of your failed to wound rolls because of vengeful strike, and enjoy yourself immensly! If you position it well, it shouldn't matter about the boss because you just kill all of the ablative wounds. Then if he choses to charge you next turn, so be it, he might kill belial or something, but there's a very slim chance of him surviving the power fists and thunderhammers. If he doesn't charge you next turn, hunt him down with your black knights. Flamers are the solution to hoard tactics. So you have 22 models on the table... oh well, they are roasting 22 models a turn with their flamer goodness.

Bring the flame of the emperor to those filthy xenos.

 

Just my 2 cents on the matter, they never fail me against hoards.

[Solrac]

I suddenly got really confused lol went back and read everything.

 

That guy had that big unkillable ork bike squad in 750pts and still had heaps of boyz in trukks etc? wow. 

 

 

I like your edited list Prot. Instead of the Tac squad in a pod I would give the Assault Squad the pod and give the Sergeant a Combi-flamer. Since they are  a suicide unit he'll get his shot off and will guarantee you kill a whole mob of lootas or tank bustas for example. That many flame templates even works on a 3+ save.

 

Give the other Tac squad a transport and a heavy or special weapon to help run around and take objectives in stead. Yes you lack the tank busting Alpha strike but there won't be many AV13+ vehicles in 750pts. That's my view on it anyway.

[Solrac]

So last night I found out our next League at our local will also be 750pts (still a good 5 or so weeks away). I did like your edited list Prot but I thought I might go a different route and made this:

 

HQ

 

Librarian 170
Power Field Generator
Shroud of heroes
Bike
Auspex

 

TROOPS

 

6 Scouts 84
Sniper Rifles
Camo Cloaks

 

6 Tactical Marines 150
Plasma
Combi-Plasma
Razorback
Twin-linked Lascannons

 

FAST ATTACK

 

Landspeeder Typhoon 75

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

 

Vindicator 135
Siege Shield

 

Vindicator 135
Siege Shield

 

Total 749

 

This won't be a Maelstrom league but will most likely still be objective based. I have no Alpha strike but fear factor is high. Libby with the Shroud will get a 2+ jink and Feel No Pain and will give a 4++ to the 2 Vindicators. The Razorback follows them through whilst they clear a path. The Scouts sit on an objective that I can hopefully place in a ruin. The Speeder stays in the back field shooting missile and jump on a late objective. Ill put him in reserve if my opponent has an alpha strike. I've been looking for an excuse to use the shroud, I know its expensive but knowing he has a 2+ cover and FNP should hopefully deter people from shooting at him and the Vindis should last hopefully the whole game.

 

Last time I took 2 vindis with no character with PFG they lasted to Turn 3 and they killed 2 Ghost Arcs and all the warriors the following turn (this was with the old crons codex). S10 ordinance is still pretty decent at killing vehicles.

 

I think I'll still go Divination with the Libby as half the powers would still be good to support the Vindis Perfect Timing with Ignore cover would be amazing but precognition on the libby would also be good giving him a 2+ re-rollable cover save, not to mention Prescience making one of the vindis able to re-roll to hit the pie plate goes wide.

 

BTW I too like a lot of toys :P

[DarkAngeal]

Gotta say, a pfg and the shroud of heros seems a bit steep for points on one model in 750. Is the shroud necessary?

[Solrac]

Gotta say, a pfg and the shroud of heros seems a bit steep for points on one model in 750. Is the shroud necessary?

 

I wouldn't say necessary just makes him one very tough dude to kill. I figured even if the Vindis die and he doesn't I can park him solo on an objective and he should be ok. Just really interested to try it. I've seen a few games where a guy has used an Autarch on a bike with the Mantel of the Laughing God that gives him shrouded and every game it soaked up so much firepower and he only died once out of 3 or 4 games.

 

If it doesn't work out I'll just drop it and put the points somewhere else, no biggie.

[HsojVvad]

*edit*

[shabbadoo]

 

Gotta say, a pfg and the shroud of heros seems a bit steep for points on one model in 750. Is the shroud necessary?

 

I wouldn't say necessary just makes him one very tough dude to kill. I figured even if the Vindis die and he doesn't I can park him solo on an objective and he should be ok. Just really interested to try it. I've seen a few games where a guy has used an Autarch on a bike with the Mantel of the Laughing God that gives him shrouded and every game it soaked up so much firepower and he only died once out of 3 or 4 games.

 

If it doesn't work out I'll just drop it and put the points somewhere else, no biggie.

 

Why don't you just take a second Librarian?  Then he'd be twice as hard to kill because there are two of them...doing twice as much even.  That might be even more helpful (and still cost less). ;)

[Isiah]

And what out of his 750 points would you suggest he drops to fit in the second HQ?

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm a big fan of Librarians and using two HQs - but it's a big ask in any Space Marine sub-1500 set up I think.

 

Cheers

I

[Cactus]

I think shabbadoo's pointing out that for the same cost of one tricked-out librarian on a bike (170 points) Solrac could take two librarians on bikes without the expensive toys. The vindicators lose their invulnerable save from the power field but I have to agree that two mobile libraries could be very potent.