DW Knights.... the antidote to Wraiths, I think...

[L30n1d4s]

I have brought this up in other forums and been testing different theories out, but Necron Wraiths from the Decurion Detachment's special sub-Detachment, the "Canoptyk Harvest" are reminding me of what Nob Bikerz were several editions ago (i.e. fast, lethal, almost unkillable):

 

-6 Wraiths have 3+/3++, T5, 12W, and the ability to get Reanimation Protocols (4+) from their formation special rules, as long as Tomb Spyder is nearby. This makes them EXTREMELY difficult to bring down.

 

That said, as I have tested different counters, one of the best I have come up with is the DW Knights with an attached TDA I-C. On the charge, a unit of 10 of them can activate Smite and get the following results (on average):

 

Wraiths attacks first (I5 due to Whip Coils) with 18 attacks, about 9 hits, about 6 wounds (S6 vs T5), and about 1 unsaved wound, which goes on the I-C to prevent any lost models outright. 

 

In return, at I4, the Dark Angels swing:

-27 S10 attacks from normal Knights and 8 S6 attacks from Knight Master and I-C

-About 24 hits for Smite weapons for WS5 and Zealot; about 6 hits for Knight Master and I-C

-About 20 wounds from Smite Weapons; about 4 wounds from Knight Master and I-C

-After 3++ saves, Wraiths suffer 7 unsaved wounds from Smite Weapons, which goes down to about 5 unsaved wounds due to Reanimation Protocols (fortunately, these are reduced to a 5+ because Smite weapons are S10, causing ID to T5 Wraiths).... in turn, due to ID, that's about 5 dead Wraiths.

-Finally, 4 wounds from Knight-Master and I-C result in about 1 unsaved wound and 0-1 actual wounds after Reanimation Protocals.

 

Net result, on average, is 5 dead Wraiths and one wound on the I-C... next round, even without Smite and Zealot bonuses, weight of attacks should finish off the last Wraith. Of course, this is a lot of points invested to kill 6 Wraiths (especially if you add in a Spartan Assault Tank to transport the DW Knights so they can get the charge), but nevertheless it is still one of the best "anti-Wraith" solutions I have found yet, mainly due to the ability to activate Smite and WS5 on the Knights.

[twopounder]

That's a lot of points to expect to make it across the battlefield into the wraiths with no casualties. There are other options as well.

 

Black Knights with an IC are able to get to that target faster. At 9" (and less, you are expected to assault after all) they can bring the wraiths down to T4 I4 then lay into them with their plasma talons and extra grenade launcher. That's 14 plasma shots of which 12 will hit and 10 will wound. The result should be one dead wraith. In assault. you get 11 free i10 S4 hits, or about 5 free wounds. Might kill something, might not. But that's followed up by 45 attacks, 5 at i5 that hit first (same as above) then 40 attacks that re-roll to hit on 3+ and wound on 3+.

 

You might take some casualties, but at least they'll get there. With knights vs necrons, they'll be taking a lot of tesla fire.

 

Other options include stasis bombing them, making sure to kill the tomb spider to drop their RP, and a combination of rad grenades and missile launchers.

 

Also, 3x vindicators.

 

Yup, that solves a lot of problems.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Boom, Boom, Boom

 

 

Solves many many problems.

 

I agree 10 DW Knights is a tough and dangerous unit, but 470+ interrogator in a transport is too much in one place.

 

BS

[Epher]

Boom, Boom, Boom

 

Solves many many problems.

 

BS

Three Vindicators? Seems to be a common theme around here. Three S10 pie plates of pure destruction? I think that I will have to invest a few.

[SnakeChisler]

Best thing seems to be the flyer in conjunction with the Ravenwing command squad

 

-1 to toughness pie plate and with luck they will fail their blind test 24 shots and plasma etc then charge if they don't fail the blind test then ooops it will be a tough fight

 

I've a couple of Vindicators and while they do a decent job I've fond I need more mobility as the Necron player I play against puts a Destroyer Lord with them and gives them an articact which effectively means they are invisible for a turn so no pie plates

[twopounder]

Best thing seems to be the flyer in conjunction with the Ravenwing command squad

 

-1 to toughness pie plate and with luck they will fail their blind test 24 shots and plasma etc then charge if they don't fail the blind test then ooops it will be a tough fight

 

I've a couple of Vindicators and while they do a decent job I've fond I need more mobility as the Necron player I play against puts a Destroyer Lord with them and gives them an articact which effectively means they are invisible for a turn so no pie plates

 

At i4 after the stasis grenade, they're more likely than not to pass. You can't really rely on that at all unless you take 2 and use the first to bomb them. Still, it's effective against necrons in general because of their low initiative. Probably the only army our flyer is worth its points against.

[aura_enchanted]

I think a smarter idea would be a stained glass rift cannon, wraiths then are ws1 effectively neutralizing them if you can upkeep. Really a 120pt flyer will probably be my solution sure he now has a tarpit unit but there's only so much you can do with a tarpit

 

Another suggestion would be rad grenades reducing them to t4 and then drop s8 on their heads via one way or another

[Prot]

 

That said, as I have tested different counters, one of the best I have come up with is the DW Knights with an attached TDA I-C. On the charge, a unit of 10 of them can activate Smite and get the following results (on average):

 

 

Net result, on average, is 5 dead Wraiths and one wound on the I-C... next round, even without Smite and Zealot bonuses, weight of attacks should finish off the last Wraith. Of course, this is a lot of points invested to kill 6 Wraiths (especially if you add in a Spartan Assault Tank to transport the DW Knights so they can get the charge), but nevertheless it is still one of the best "anti-Wraith" solutions I have found yet, mainly due to the ability to activate Smite and WS5 on the Knights.

 

Nice idea... but truly a double edged sword and I'll explain my thoughts.

First off if you haven't seen my posts I actually play Necrons, have for years, and pulled them out the day the codex went live and played the Decurion several times, and with nearly every sub-Decurion dataslate (to test them... even the baddies.)

 

What I would say to your solution is it is a great idea, BUT it plays right into the bane of all marine armies, and that is investing a ton of points into elite units. I can almost tell you with certainty I LOVE playing against small, elite armies because -most- of my Necrons really don't kill very fast, and don't differentiate that much between a 40 point model and an 8 point model. This is the problem with most marine armies.

 

I have posted in several spots all over the BnC where Wraith/Necron/Decurion conversation has run amok. There are a lot of good ideas out there... But if you are not playing your list specifically to counter a Necron player, this is going to be tough to take just to a tournament, etc.

 

That being said, Wraiths (my Wraiths) do not do well against Terminators, or even marines. It's not their forte, I'd rather run in a bunch of Praetorians, or Lychguard or even Flayed Ones (which imo are very underrated.)

 

In my games, my Wraiths would avoid your Terminators at all costs, and simply try to pound you with a mountain of saves from simple gauss, (warriors/arks). This is where things can go very poorly for a Marine player because it's the weight of fire that kills those eiltes.

 

I do like the -1 toughness, with the Ravenwing, and the bombs to cause blind tests... Blind is HUGE. Anything tagging Initiative values is good. 

 

So far my biggest challenges have been the opposite of what you are saying... large, mediocre armies... orks with tons of junk, nids, etc. That sort of stuff.

 

 

Boom, Boom, Boom

 

 

Solves many many problems.

 

I agree 10 DW Knights is a tough and dangerous unit, but 470+ interrogator in a transport is too much in one place.

 

BS

 

Haha. Love the idea, but if you're serious the biggest problem here is you are now playing in the Necrons sandbox at 24". Against a Decurion you will -probablyy- get one shot at the Wraiths with those. They will get a 3++ and a 5+ (Modified Decurion) RP roll. Next turn those things are gone without a lot of proper protection.

 

 

Best thing seems to be the flyer in conjunction with the Ravenwing command squad

 

-1 to toughness pie plate and with luck they will fail their blind test 24 shots and plasma etc then charge if they don't fail the blind test then ooops it will be a tough fight

 

I've a couple of Vindicators and while they do a decent job I've fond I need more mobility as the Necron player I play against puts a Destroyer Lord with them and gives them an articact which effectively means they are invisible for a turn so no pie plates

 

Agreed. Again  my only worry here is trying to build stuff just to take on necrons and finding it failing brutally against everything else you might face that day. I am not saying this is the case, but hopefully the 'solutions' to Necrons don't handcuff you against other opponents.

[twopounder]

 

 

That said, as I have tested different counters, one of the best I have come up with is the DW Knights with an attached TDA I-C. On the charge, a unit of 10 of them can activate Smite and get the following results (on average):

 

 

Net result, on average, is 5 dead Wraiths and one wound on the I-C... next round, even without Smite and Zealot bonuses, weight of attacks should finish off the last Wraith. Of course, this is a lot of points invested to kill 6 Wraiths (especially if you add in a Spartan Assault Tank to transport the DW Knights so they can get the charge), but nevertheless it is still one of the best "anti-Wraith" solutions I have found yet, mainly due to the ability to activate Smite and WS5 on the Knights.

 

Nice idea... but truly a double edged sword and I'll explain my thoughts.

First off if you haven't seen my posts I actually play Necrons, have for years, and pulled them out the day the codex went live and played the Decurion several times, and with nearly every sub-Decurion dataslate (to test them... even the baddies.)

 

What I would say to your solution is it is a great idea, BUT it plays right into the bane of all marine armies, and that is investing a ton of points into elite units. I can almost tell you with certainty I LOVE playing against small, elite armies because -most- of my Necrons really don't kill very fast, and don't differentiate that much between a 40 point model and an 8 point model. This is the problem with most marine armies.

 

I have posted in several spots all over the BnC where Wraith/Necron/Decurion conversation has run amok. There are a lot of good ideas out there... But if you are not playing your list specifically to counter a Necron player, this is going to be tough to take just to a tournament, etc.

 

That being said, Wraiths (my Wraiths) do not do well against Terminators, or even marines. It's not their forte, I'd rather run in a bunch of Praetorians, or Lychguard or even Flayed Ones (which imo are very underrated.)

 

In my games, my Wraiths would avoid your Terminators at all costs, and simply try to pound you with a mountain of saves from simple gauss, (warriors/arks). This is where things can go very poorly for a Marine player because it's the weight of fire that kills those eiltes.

 

I do like the -1 toughness, with the Ravenwing, and the bombs to cause blind tests... Blind is HUGE. Anything tagging Initiative values is good. 

 

So far my biggest challenges have been the opposite of what you are saying... large, mediocre armies... orks with tons of junk, nids, etc. That sort of stuff.

 

That's why I mentioned Ravenwing. The problem with most heavy hitting marine units is their very slow pace. If they can't close fast, they're useless. Honestly, it's almost like we have to take forgeworld just to get an even chance these days. Everything is built to kill marines. Combining 3x Whirlwind Scorpius with a rad grenade effectively eliminates FNP and RP and drops 3 + 3*D3 str8 ap3 blast markers on the unit from cover. That's 6 - 12 small blasts before knights close in for the kill, and it can be used as a general army list, not specifically a necron killer.

 

Other options are Sicaran battletanks with their long range, high speed, and ability to take lascannon sponsons. Fire Raptors won't do a lot to the wraiths, but they'll sweep up the rest of the army nicely and the list goes on. In each case, the unit adds enough to the army list to keep it universal and balanced.

[durdle-durdle]

The thing about the deathwing knights is that they're going to move 6" at a time (bunched up), which means they need a transport.  Then they need that interrogator chaplain to allow them to make the most of their smite rolls.  Then they need some good numbers (like a full squad) to take down these wraiths.  

 

then the wraiths still have a 12" move.  They can avoid the DWKstar land raider and go after other things.  So effectively, you've tied up a quarter (or more) of your points in one unit to go after one other unit.  On top of that, if you end up in combat with them, it's probably because they charged YOU (with their 12" move then 2d6" charge ignoring difficult terrain).

 

Luckily, they're only likely to have one decurion cantopek harvest unit (due to the other things needed in the decurion).  So the key is taking down the tomb spider early and quickly.  I think a tri las predator/ dev squad/ other long ranged weaponry will be helpful to reach out and touch it.  In addition, i think the synergy of the black knight grenade launcher is extremely helpful.  If you can get a grenade off on them, you can use regular terminators as well instead of just DWK to instant death them.  

 

so basically, my battle plan for this is as follows:

1. take down tomb spider ASAP

2. ravenwing grenade launcher on the wraiths (if using regular terminators)

3. charge in whatever brand you like

4. pray to the emperor for good rolls.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Haha Prot mate, I was just being a little cheeky. These Wraiths are a hard nut to crack alright.

 

What about just killing everything else? Is ignoring/tarpitting them an option?

 

If so then it's back to the Vindies and other cheap big guns :P

 

Mass Heavy Bolter fire? even mass bolter fire from BoD? Are these realistic options?

[AngelVeto]

Devastation banner works the best in this situation. the Necrons are going to want to get within 24" of you anyway, and the more dice you throw at them the better off you are. Necron codex is to us like we are to other books. Scary if things go their way, but a bucket of dice will still wreck face. 

[twopounder]

Haha Prot mate, I was just being a little cheeky. These Wraiths are a hard nut to crack alright.

What about just killing everything else? Is ignoring/tarpitting them an option?

If so then it's back to the Vindies and other cheap big guns

Mass Heavy Bolter fire? even mass bolter fire from BoD? Are these realistic options?

Depends on how competitive you are. Depending on rolls is not competitive and lists are built around making outcomes as predictable or at least mathematically overwhelmingly in your favor. BoD is effective, but only marginally assuming decent rolls against a formation like that. It also requires committing a large number of squads for this matter which draws stress from the rest of the necron force.

[SnakeChisler]

Wraiths are initiative 2

 

Whip coils give +3 to initiative in combat only so there taking a blind test on 2 stasis bomb is easy enough to get on them

 

First to get the targeting is the ghost ark anyway as Prot said its volume that Nukes elite armies, Triarch + Ark is a huge volume of shots to survive and at the moment its just taking a huge volume of shooting just to down a basic squad.

 

4+ + 4+ takes forever to plow through especially with 20 warriors

 

Board coverage is also an issue there appears to be so many of them objective grabbing is getting nigh on impossible

 

Not played against Wraiths with RP yet but personally can't see anything that can stand up to something with a 3+ ivun i5 4+ RP with 12 movements s6 rending. The whole package is nuts your gonna run em with a destroyer lord for preferred enemy as well

 

Seems wholy designed to sell destroyer weapons if you ask me :(

[twopounder]

Wraiths are initiative 2

Whip coils give +3 to initiative in combat only so there taking a blind test on 2 stasis bomb is easy enough to get on them

First to get the targeting is the ghost ark anyway as Prot said its volume that Nukes elite armies, Triarch + Ark is a huge volume of shots to survive and at the moment its just taking a huge volume of shooting just to down a basic squad.

4+ + 4+ takes forever to plow through especially with 20 warriors

Board coverage is also an issue there appears to be so many of them objective grabbing is getting nigh on impossible

Not played against Wraiths with RP yet but personally can't see anything that can stand up to something with a 3+ ivun i5 4+ RP with 12 movements s6 rending. The whole package is nuts your gonna run em with a destroyer lord for preferred enemy as well

Seems wholy designed to sell destroyer weapons if you ask me

I thought wraiths were naturally higher initiative than other necrons?

Ah well, it's more an issue of GW caring less about the game than the money they make selling models. Tournaments made a salient point of bad rules, and now GW doesn't have to hear about it anymore.

Thus... well... I wouldn't expect rules to improve in the near future.

[Prot]

Personally unless I'm playing someome with a cut throat list (someone offered to play my Crons with a Nid 5 x FMC list!), then I have put away Wraiths in the Canoptek Harvest formation.

 

Remember though, the Spyder gives the rules out. Without him, they lose RP entirely. And only in a Decurion is it a 4+ RP.

 

Oddly enough when I use Wraiths in the formation, I had the most trouble with marines. I know this sounds really unusual but I don't prefer them normally because they are great against vehicles actually (which Necrons can always strip hull points off of but this is a S-L-O-W process, Wraiths wack rear bumpers off like candy.) Also the Wraiths are my great horde equalizer.....

 

But against the common marine, I actually prefer the newly discounted "sword and board" Lychguard. Now that unit has completely dissected a 'tough' marine squad in very short time. ST 5 T 5, 3++/ 4+ RP. I'm hitting at AP3 and St5 as well....

 

Honestly this is where I don't get the craziness for Wraiths. I've said this all over the BnC.... my Wraiths have been stuck in due to bad 'Rend Rolling' against a crappy, low level 5 man marine squad. Mean while I have had the same wraiths mow down 20 man mini IG blobs, and then take on tank squadrons (no exaggeration.)

 

But when it comes to the common marine? I'll take my Lychguard any day. They are slow, that's their downfall, and Termies are a problem. However (as per my Terminator thread in the Astartes forum) I don't see Termies as being a threat, only a help to my Necrons because it means the Marine player's list is too small to contend with mine.

 

I think with my marines, I'd much rather face Wraiths (without RP which translates into a non-Decurion format), than Lychguard.

 

My personal thought on this whole Necron thing is the army is good, but you take away the Decurion and I don't think it's near the issue everyone is feeling it is today.

 

The army does have a lot of minor negatives, and it still is subsceptible to many things people have figured out... volume of bodies, massed cheap firepower, good, basic assaults, etc. But when you add in the Decurion benefits, it just makes it so survivable, and more offensive:

- 4+ RP without having to use Crypteks

- Re-roll 1's on the RP rolls IF within 12" of the Overlord in the Reclamation Legion (the beef of a Decurion)

- Ignore Stunned on vehicles (this is bigger than most people realize)

- Relentless (I've taken 15 warriors, rapid fired an assault squad... THEN assaulted them. )

- Move Through Cover (skimmers that don't crash? Tomb Blades (Forced in a Decurion) that don't test and sit in cover? Sure why not.)

 

Plus the mini-Decurion formations which are the only 'legal' way of expanding a non-Unbound, Decurion army. Some of these are a double edged sword. I don't think you will see many people taking the "Annihilation formation" which I have tested all of these formations, and  that one stinks, but you will obviously see lots of the Canoptek Harvest formation in competitive environments.

 

Again, I think at this point in my testing, the Necron codex is nice, and a lot of necessary changes were made to completely dead units to make the playable, but it's the Decurion I think that is causing most of the fluff.

 

Well the Decurion AND the fact here at the BnC, as marine players of all types, we might be inherently one of the worst match ups for the Necrons.

[Solrac]

With all the new Necron toys yes they are a tough army but nothing is impossible to kill. When we are talking about re-animation both instant death weapons or high rate of fire will work to whittle them down. It's also all about your deployment and the mission type.

 

Having a mobile army will be key though. Necron transports aren't fast and if you keep them jinking Ghost Arks definitely won't be getting off good volleys. 

 

If you want to go crazy, 3 Dark Talons hovering around a Ravenwing Command Squad with BoD Banner and PFG. Yes a lot of points but it will cost you almost as much as a big unit of Knights in an LRC. The difference is the massive output. 72 Twin-linked Bolter Shots per turn, 3 blind templates and 3 bombs if you need break one of them off for a unit of wraiths. And the Dark Talons get a 4++ from the character in the Command Squad with a PFG, no need to jink. Keep the unit mobile and you have a recipe of destruction.

 

I myself wouldn't go that crazy but I'm experimenting with a Ravenwing list with 2 Dark Talons to hover around a Command Squad with BoD banner.

 

But as Prot said you can have a tonne of fire power but doesn't mean squat if you don't prioritise your targets. Getting some long range support to kill spiders first before the Wraiths hit for example.

 

Losing doesn't dishearten me from playing my DA. It only makes me go back to try different combos.

[SnakeChisler]

I use legion of the damned a truly sad unit that dumps down and nukes vehicles, I try not to use them but feel no shame it stymies their movement and I feel under gunned even at a paltry 150 point s your normally just pulling them off the table

 

But I have to say the other big plus is since fetching the mortis dread with twin las its put off my regular opponent from taking the Mick with his flyers. Twin linked at s9 with + 1 have seen them downed enough times to make him think twice about points investment coupled with rending from the librarian and the possibility of dying to mass bolter fire