NSF Dreadnoughts

[SyNidus]

So, just wondering, since we've got 4 Elite slots with the NSF, has anyone considered using 4 rifleman dreadnoughts for a firebase?

I'm thinking a list like this:
 

List 2:

NSF:
Librarian - ML3 - Stave, Combi-Melta, Liber Daemonica - 170
Librarian - ML3 - Sword, Combi-Melta - 145
Dreadnought - 2 TL-Autocannons - 145

Dreadnought - 2 TL-Autocannons - 145

Dreadnought - 2 TL-Autocannons - 145
Terminator Squad - 5 man - 2 Psycannons, Justi w Hammer - 195

Interceptor Squad - 5 man - Incinerator, Justi w Teleport Homer, Hammer - 155
Dread Knight - Teleporter, H.Psycannon, Sword, G.Psilencer - 235
Dread Knight - Teleporter, H.Psycannon, Hammer, G.Psilencer - 230
Kaldor Draigo - 245
Total: 1810
Model Count: 18

What do you guys reckon?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Terminator Squad - 5 man - 2 Psycannons, Justi w Hammer - 195

 

Only one psycannon per squad I'm afraid. 

 

Rifleman Dreads suffer from a number of issues. One is critical mass, with only three on the table they're too easily focused (three glances and they're dead). Secondly, 4x S7 shots just isn't enough firepower output. Even non-xenos have greater firepower. If we still had psybolts, different story maybe (although fragility would still be an issue). 

 

You're better off investing those points in more Terminators. 

[SyNidus]

Yeah noted, that was a copy & paste job.

The point is i'm wondering how we can (if at all possible) really take advantage of the NSF's excess elites slot. Can dreads taken in quantity be good? Maybe instead of rifleman config, some other config?

[ChaoticEric]

Yeah noted, that was a copy & paste job.

The point is i'm wondering how we can (if at all possible) really take advantage of the NSF's excess elites slot. Can dreads taken in quantity be good? Maybe instead of rifleman config, some other config?

I think they are too expnsive for what they do but that's my personal opinion. If you compare to other factions you're spending more points for less output which mean you're not playing the strength of your codex. We'll never be a dakka army, it's more a matter of getting some pot-shots before the charge :)

 

It's not just our dreadnoughts either, dreadnoughts aren't popular in any army at the moment because of the meta.

 

About elites, I think purifiers and paladins are the most popular choices.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The point is i'm wondering how we can (if at all possible) really take advantage of the NSF's excess elites slot. Can dreads taken in quantity be good? Maybe instead of rifleman config, some other config?

 

Not really. Paladins are bad, like 'you will wish you took basic Terminators instead' bad. Purifiers require a deliver system, they can't Deepstrike by themselves. It will remain a mystery to this day why we get 4 Elites, when none of the options are cheap or arguably better than Troop or Heavy in many cases. 

 

The reason you play Nemesis Strikeforce is you only need 1 Troops, you still can take 2x Dreadknights in Heavy, and everything Deepstriking Turn 1 with Run+Shoot. Elites don't matter. 

[jeffersonian000]

A way to take advantage of the 4 Elite slots in a NSF is a Purifier heavy strike force:

 

Crowe

 

4x 10man Purifiers w/ max Incinerators, combat squaded, in a Rhino

 

1x 5man Strikers w/ Incinerator, with Crowe, in a Rhino

 

5-9 Cleansing Flames per turn.

 

SJ

[Captain Coolpants]

Yeah I wouldn't bother with our noughts, we pay waaaay too much just to give them a single warp charge.

 

They were epic last edition though, with the doomfists and psybolt/psyflame ammo.

 

Strength 8 autocannons were epic, and the doomfist with a psyflame Flamer and psyflame heavy Flamer was so cool. Punched a riptide in the crotch and insta killed it twice!

[Bionicman]

A way to take advantage of the 4 Elite slots in a NSF is a Purifier heavy strike force:

 

Crowe

 

4x 10man Purifiers w/ max Incinerators, combat squaded, in a Rhino

 

1x 5man Strikers w/ Incinerator, with Crowe, in a Rhino

 

5-9 Cleansing Flames per turn.

 

SJ

 

+2

+4x4

+1

= 19+ 1D6 Warpcharges.

 

4-5 dices per WC2 power to get it through more or less reliable

25/ 4 = ~6x cleansing Flames

25/5 = ~ 5x cleansing Flames

20/4 = 5 cleansing Flames

20/5 = 4 cleansing Flames

 

-Fails

- Perils

- Deny the witch

- Range issues

- Delivery system issues

- S5 / tank and transporter issues

 

 

=== Oh wat sweet wishful thinking

[Reclusiarch Darius]

A way to take advantage of the 4 Elite slots in a NSF is a Purifier heavy strike force:

 

Crowe

 

4x 10man Purifiers w/ max Incinerators, combat squaded, in a Rhino

 

1x 5man Strikers w/ Incinerator, with Crowe, in a Rhino

 

5-9 Cleansing Flames per turn.

 

SJ 

 

Lol. That's almost Servitor-list tier haha. Nothing in the army is using 'Rites', and you're fielding massed PA in an edition where cover and armour saves barely matter anymore. It would be amusing to see all those 'Cleansing Flames' get stacked...so much infantry clearance. 

[jeffersonian000]

You all seem to miss the fact that I think Purifiers are useless garbage, due to their lack of mobility, so any time I recommend Purifiers is on a Spam list full of Cans of Spam. An since reading for content is a dying art, the list I proposed took advantage of the NSF to spam Purifiers, not to actually use Rites.

 

SJ

[Rurik the blessed]

You all seem to miss the fact that I think Purifiers are useless garbage, due to their lack of mobility, so any time I recommend Purifiers is on a Spam list full of Cans of Spam. An since reading for content is a dying art, the list I proposed took advantage of the NSF to spam Purifiers, not to actually use Rites.

 

SJ

 

What lack of mobility? you mean that of every Power Armor Space Marine? that what we have for our entire army in the past edition of our codex?... i think this is not a problem. NSF makes us lazy.

[jeffersonian000]

 

 

You all seem to miss the fact that I think Purifiers are useless garbage, due to their lack of mobility, so any time I recommend Purifiers is on a Spam list full of Cans of Spam. An since reading for content is a dying art, the list I proposed took advantage of the NSF to spam Purifiers, not to actually use Rites.

 

SJ

What lack of mobility? you mean that of every Power Armor Space Marine? that what we have for our entire army in the past edition of our codex?... i think this is not a problem. NSF makes us lazy.

Opinion noted.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

What lack of mobility? you mean that of every Power Armor Space Marine? that what we have for our entire army in the past edition of our codex?... i think this is not a problem. NSF makes us lazy.

 

6" movement is slow. Like, painfully slow, especially for an army that only shoots 24" normally. It's why NSF is so good, we get up in the enemy's face quickly and skip the two free Shooting phases they get to gun down our pathetically tiny number of manz. 

[Bionicman]

6'' is slow, while we get our butts kicked by all kinds of cavalry and beasts and fast vehicles and yes it matters because we have so few expensive models and an shooty edition and mean xeno weapons and our peeps die ohsofast when not in close combat.

 

You can not really compare it to our last codex, when transports were king and we had a whole bunch of other options. This edition is DS edition, is alpha strike NSF edition and while I respect any other style of playing GK it is just the most efficient way.

[Captain Coolpants]

Well... I don't think think we can complain about being slow, because we are indeed space Marines, I.e the same as any other infantry... But I think that we are indeed slower than other Marines because we cannot take drop pods without allies, instead they're stuck in first blood rhinos or a really expensive assault vehicle.

 

Least most of our army can deepstrike for free :-P

[Brom MKIV]

[msu] Rhino purifiers is a valid build for the elites slots and having Rites is what enables it due to the forward pressure. Rhinos are first blood magnets but anymore so is anything really. I consider sicarans FB bait.  

[Reclusiarch Darius]

[msu] Rhino purifiers is a valid build for the elites slots and having Rites is what enables it due to the forward pressure. Rhinos are first blood magnets but anymore so is anything really. I consider sicarans FB bait.  

 

Well its not, because putting Purifiers on the table without A: being in 'Cleansing Flame' range or B: being in a Raven means they'll die before they even kill a single model. 

 

The difference between a Rhino charging at your lines with AV11, and a Sicarian abusing area terrain with AV13 as well is huge. One is running the gauntlet to get their cargo into effective range. The other can camp at 48" all day and barring ungodly amounts of S8/9 hits, is gonna keep trucking and shooting. I wish we could get Sicarians, they're an amazing tank and a thousand times better than Rifleman Dreads. 

[jeffersonian000]

 

[msu] Rhino purifiers is a valid build for the elites slots and having Rites is what enables it due to the forward pressure. Rhinos are first blood magnets but anymore so is anything really. I consider sicarans FB bait.

 

Well its not, because putting Purifiers on the table without A: being in 'Cleansing Flame' range or B: being in a Raven means they'll die before they even kill a single model.

 

The difference between a Rhino charging at your lines with AV11, and a Sicarian abusing area terrain with AV13 as well is huge. One is running the gauntlet to get their cargo into effective range. The other can camp at 48" all day and barring ungodly amounts of S8/9 hits, is gonna keep trucking and shooting. I wish we could get Sicarians, they're an amazing tank and a thousand times better than Rifleman Dreads.

If you immediately assume a hard counter every time, you will never get a game played due to losing in your head before ever reaching a table. MSU Rhino rush has great value, because Deathstar players self-restrict their shooting due to placing a huge portion of their list into a single unit. It could literally take greater than 8 turns to defeat a Rhino Rush playing to the mission, if all you have is a 1000pt Deathstar. This is a fact I keep in mind when fielding my Draigo-Shunt-Bomb (current iteration of my old Ghostwing).

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If you immediately assume a hard counter every time, you will never get a game played due to losing in your head before ever reaching a table. MSU Rhino rush has great value, because Deathstar players self-restrict their shooting due to placing a huge portion of their list into a single unit. It could literally take greater than 8 turns to defeat a Rhino Rush playing to the mission, if all you have is a 1000pt Deathstar. This is a fact I keep in mind when fielding my Draigo-Shunt-Bomb (current iteration of my old Ghostwing).

 

I don't assume. I regularly play xenos armies that have zero trouble killing 2+ Rhinos per Shooting phase. Considering they only need to kill 2 per Shooting phase at worst to ruin that build, it's why I don't mech. There is just no point, when all I'll eat is endless S6/7 Ignore Cover twin-linked shots. Terminators can at least make saves against that firepower, Rhinos just have no real defence. Also, splitting fire is hardly an issue (Tau have a wargear item on battlesuits that lets them do that, Eldar have their firepower spread out on multiple Serpents etc etc). Also, IG don't have any issue killing Rhinos either. Why do you think no Marine army does it? It's not even working for them, and they're much cheaper than us. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

It will remain a mystery to this day why we get 4 Elites

 

All to easy to explain...

 

GW: The Grey Kngihts are an 'elite' army.  So in thier special faction detachment, lets focus on the Elite slots!  YAY!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

All to easy to explain...

 

GW: The Grey Kngihts are an 'elite' army.  So in thier special faction detachment, lets focus on the Elite slots!  YAY!

 

'But sir, shouldn't we give them something good in Elites that can also Deepstrike?'

'No that's crazy talk. Anyway, everyone knows Paladins are broken right?'

'.......sure'

[Brom MKIV]

Purifiers are fantastic at what they do especially atm when flyrants and daemon princes are so common. Its the support thats lacking. Case in point is tau. We have nothing in 'pure' GKs that can reliably bring down triptide at range. The best I can come up with is spamming psychic shriek.

 

Tau are literally the worst yardstick out there when considering the viability of GK anything. They are anethema to elite short ranged cc focused armies. If thats the dominant presence in your meta then life sucks. 

 

Back on rhinos, its true they can get destroyed easy at times, but other times they can be annoyingly difficult to get rid of and really what do you expect for 35 pts. 160 buys 2 units one of which is a fearless vet unit with ID weaponry slash warp charge battery that can drop FMCs better than actual flyers from inside their ride at cruising speed. Thats pretty good by anyones standards. 

 

The issue with purifiers isnt the purifiers themselves or the rhinos, both are excellent value units. Its the GK codex overall and its utter lack of credible ranged answers to av13+ and armour 3+ or better, including MCs. Psycans while mathematically superior to most meq weaponry are straight unreliable at doing either outside of critical mass such as crons were formerly capable of. 

 

 

 

Off topic a bit but terminators aren't good. We have the best of the bunch for sure but that doesn't change the fact the TDA has been poor for the last several editions. I personally love TDA and I've fielded full TDA armies for many editions from GK to deathwing to loganwing and more. The damage output isn't there and now neither is the durability.

 

I'm personally too lazy to delve too far into pagks this edition so I take allied troops but I feel that pagks are worth exploring. Not as heavy lifters, which is what nearly every GK player seems to consider their troops choices, but as simple objective holders. Now if you play nothing but eternal war missions this idea isn't as appealing. It also comes at the cost of NSF which I'm finding isn't that necessary, but thats another debate. However if, like many of us out there you play a mix of missions or even blended missions like is becoming the norm here in the states then objective secured troops hold greater value.  I've won my last two games on the back of obsec tacs. Its real and it works but its one of those things.. you dont know what you dont know.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Purifiers are fantastic at what they do especially atm when flyrants and daemon princes are so common. Its the support thats lacking. Case in point is tau. We have nothing in 'pure' GKs that can reliably bring down triptide at range. The best I can come up with is spamming psychic shriek.

 

That's the thing. Purifiers are great, but all they bring is more anti-infantry (with some amusing applications against light Flyers and FMC's). With Riptides, I don't bother shooting them anymore. I instead put all my firepower into Broadsides or into support units like the marker drones. If even one DK survives their shooting phase, or I manage to get a Terminator squad into BTB alive, I can kill it anyway in melee. But 2+/3+ with 5+ FNP on top of that is just absurd when you try and shoot it. 

Tau are literally the worst yardstick out there when considering the viability of GK anything. They are anethema to elite short ranged cc focused armies. If thats the dominant presence in your meta then life sucks. 

 

They're the meta-defining army right now. So are Eldar. If you don't have solid answers to what they bring, you are in serious trouble. I have about three local Tau players, so yes, life is suffering :( . They don't even use Farsight Bomb or TripTide much, relatively normal Tau builds still rek face anyway. 

Back on rhinos, its true they can get destroyed easy at times, but other times they can be annoyingly difficult to get rid of and really what do you expect for 35 pts. 160 buys 2 units one of which is a fearless vet unit with ID weaponry slash warp charge battery that can drop FMCs better than actual flyers from inside their ride at cruising speed. Thats pretty good by anyones standards. 

 

AV11 is not a challenge to any army these days. Autocannon-tier firepower is prevalent in every army, even we have it (psycannons). 

 

The issue with Purifiers isn't their abilities (they are better than Sternguard in many ways). It's their resilience. Even with all their rules, they're still just Tac Marines against enemy shooting. 5 Marines and a Rhino do not last long these days. Considering our Terminators and even DK's have trouble staying alive, PA units are in a bad place. It's why Pod and Raven are so good, they circumvent a lot of those issues (Interceptor is still stupid but hey can't have everything). 

The issue with purifiers isnt the purifiers themselves or the rhinos, both are excellent value units. Its the GK codex overall and its utter lack of credible ranged answers to av13+ and armour 3+ or better, including MCs. Psycans while mathematically superior to most meq weaponry are straight unreliable at doing either outside of critical mass such as crons were formerly capable of. 

 

Psycannon does alright. It's not ideal, I agree, but it could be a lot worse. S7 AP4 Rending is middle of the road, but at least it's flexible. Some armies don't get anything close to our special weapons selections. Our answers to mech and Marines is 'get into melee'. Most of our abilities are relevant there only, and AP3 army-wide (plus AP2 hammers to tougher stuff) means we don't lack for threat. 

Off topic a bit but terminators aren't good. We have the best of the bunch for sure but that doesn't change the fact the TDA has been poor for the last several editions. I personally love TDA and I've fielded full TDA armies for many editions from GK to deathwing to loganwing and more. The damage output isn't there and now neither is the durability.

 

Terminators are fine. 33pts is extremely competitive pricing on ours, I don't think they could be cheaper without breaking the game. Yes, other Marines pay through the nose, but that's why Stormhammers remain the top pick every edition. The whole point about TDA is that it requires more firepower to be invested than twice the number of lesser Marines. Having both Deepstrike, durability, shooting and melee comes at a cost. 

 

The real issue is the insane proliferation of AP2, especially for xenos. Used to be, plasma weaponry was expensive and rare. Now, you can field whole armies of it. It's dumb. 

I'm personally too lazy to delve too far into pagks this edition so I take allied troops but I feel that pagks are worth exploring. Not as heavy lifters, which is what nearly every GK player seems to consider their troops choices, but as simple objective holders. Now if you play nothing but eternal war missions this idea isn't as appealing. It also comes at the cost of NSF which I'm finding isn't that necessary, but thats another debate. However if, like many of us out there you play a mix of missions or even blended missions like is becoming the norm here in the states then objective secured troops hold greater value.  I've won my last two games on the back of obsec tacs. Its real and it works but its one of those things.. you dont know what you dont know.

 

I've played both Eternal War and Maelstrom, and I can't even name a single time 'Objective Secured' has mattered. Not even for my opponents, with their vastly higher number of Troops. Either you kill them and hold it unopposed, or they drive you off and hold it unopposed. I've never had a game where I was struggling over an objective and neither side was winning combat decisively. We also don't have time to mess around capping objectives. We're a melee army with decent shooting, and we have to alpha-strike to be effective. Other armies take support and auxilary choices to do the whole 'sit around quietly capping stuff' job. After Inquisition got stripped out, we lost that capacity. 

[Rurik the blessed]

I'm wondering... what if i drop two Vortimer pattern dreadnoughts into enemy lines throug some Ravens?

That would be nice to see.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm wondering... what if i drop two Vortimer pattern dreadnoughts into enemy lines throug some Ravens?

That would be nice to see.

 

Massively overpriced for what they do dude. Also, due to how the sweep attack works, you could potentially get meltabombed or powerfisted to death anyway. 

 

Dreads just aren't good at melee. Contemptors are, so are BA and SW Dreads. But even those Marine armies barely take Contemptors. Especially since the Sicarian came on the scene and made Predators redundant.