BloodTzar Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Hello brothers, I am getting back to this hobby, getting dust of from both of my armies, while still getting into the meta. I do not understand why so many of you bash paladins so bad ? I do understand their price being somewhere near double the termie squad, however we do have techs how to make paladins survive long enough (sanc, shrouded, invis etc...) while termies might fail in this category. Moreover, with addition of fast drop pods in allied codexes/ Draigos gate they might be somehow useful. Therefore I would like to ask you how to run them effectively, or how not to run them at all (preferred substitution), on the other hand please no super competitive combos :) ~ BT Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zembar Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 They are overcosted, and their two wounds barely make a difference due to their toughness. You're better off just taking more terminators. Ref: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298044-mathhammer-paladin-v-gkt-analysis/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3967012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deamon Wolf Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Like all units in the game Paladins cannot take on all units but is a very effective combat unit but it is rather pricey for a 2w ws5 terminator , the unit can take more specialist weapons and an apothecary both of which I personally find very useful I like Paladins but you can expect to loose them to vindicator , ork gun battery , tau riptide and any s8ap2 shooting I find if you put sten in the squad with an apothecary they survive a bit longer due to sanctuary and then when they are in combat they are nearly unstoppable against armour saves of 3+ Against other termi squads you use dread knights , Take them and try them out I think you will like them I know I do Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3967064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I am getting back to this hobby, getting dust of from both of my armies, while still getting into the meta. I do not understand why so many of you bash paladins so bad ? Riptides exist. Also, we now get 33pt Terminators. So, Paladins are nearly twice as pricey now, for a meaningless upgrade to WS5. I do understand their price being somewhere near double the termie squad, however we do have techs how to make paladins survive long enough (sanc, shrouded, invis etc...) while termies might fail in this category. The same defensive tech is available to Terminators as well. That's not an argument in favour of Paladins. Both units can get a Raven too (shrug) Moreover, with addition of fast drop pods in allied codexes/ Draigos gate they might be somehow useful. Again, basic Terminators do the same thing, and beat them on cost. Therefore I would like to ask you how to run them effectively, or how not to run them at all (preferred substitution), on the other hand please no super competitive combos In Elites, Purifiers beat them easily. WC2, 'Cleansing Flame', PA (you can fit 10 in a drop pod, and combat squad as well to multi-assault or double cast 'Cleansing Flame', not to mention double Warp Charge bonus), less than half the price but just as effective in melee...oh and Fearless thrown in as well. In Troops, you can bring twice as many Terminators, who exactly the same thing except at WS4 and with only 1 psycannon per 5. In Heavy, Dreadknights are absurdly better. You trade more wounds for T6 (functionally you can't be one-shotted at range, and few things can one-shot you in melee either), S10 AP2 at Initative 4, great guns, a teleporter, 'Sanctuary'...DK's are better than just about every unit in our codex. Wait for our new codex. It's possible we'll see them revamped either cheaper or with some kind of defensive tech to keep them alive (storm shields would be nice, given they're the Chapter martial elite and yet inferior Marines get Stormhammer Terminators who are cheaper, tougher and hit harder). As of now, they're overpriced and don't bring anything we need. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3967080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Paladins are great for fun play, really survivable and are amusing with a librarian+grandmaster or draigo, teleporting around the board whilst being invisible. Now that actually sounds amazing, but will also cost upwards of 800pts for only 7 models (can get absurdly expensive if you max out the squad) and is actually super tough for any regular list to deal with. But as soon as you take it to a competitive game, you'll realise that your models are just a mega point sink, and won't make their pounts back and your extra wounds/weapon skill mean nothing, and loads of high street low ap 'things' will just pick you off until nothing is left. But I've had fun using paladins in normal games, but even in normal games. They fail to an average tau list or an average ork horde. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3967142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Wait for our new codex. Disney will have bought out GW before that happens... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3967179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thraxdown Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I've also had no luck with paladins with the new book. The apothecary is cheaper but even that isn't enough to make them competitive. They should really be mastery level 2 with purge soul and a few less points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3967190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz'sax Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I don't believe that paladins are that bad, its just the dread knight is the go to option for everything Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3967243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zembar Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I don't believe that paladins are that bad, its just the dread knight is the go to option for everything Well, purgators would be our best unit if it weren't for all the other units in the codex... Paladins are not replaced by NDK, they're replaced by Terminators. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3967249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz'sax Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 But arnt terminators then replaced with the dk? When I've read about topics asking how to deal with something its 99% of the time answered with take another dreadknight? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3967254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thraxdown Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Dreadknight is the strongest unit in our codex that's why the advice is get as many of those on the table as you can. Point for point you're likely to get more out of terminators than you are paladins. They also fulfill troop requirement. purifiers will also outperform paladins point for point. They're simply not as good. I wouldn't call them worthless, yet if I was trying to be competitive I'm taking more terminators, dreadknight or purifiers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3967291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaz'sax Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Dreadknight is the strongest unit in our codex that's why the advice is get as many of those on the table as you can. Point for point you're likely to get more out of terminators than you are paladins. They also fulfill troop requirement. purifiers will also outperform paladins point for point. They're simply not as good. I wouldn't call them worthless, yet if I was trying to be competitive I'm taking more terminators, dreadknight or purifiers. You basically summed up what I was aiming to say, I'd agree 2+ dk are a must have if you are playing compettative! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3967299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The major issue with Paladins, and the reason why ai no longer field them, is that AP2 almost always comes at Strength 8 or higher, which defeats the second wound you are playing for. WS5 is meaningless and FnP is ignored versus S8+ wounds. How would I fix them? If the points value stats the same, then I would give them Iron Halos snd Sanctuary. All TDA should give a +1 to Toughness, so that goes without saying. All GK should be WS5 or better, again without having to say it. Also, all GK should have Psybolts as standard equipment, but instead of a +1 Str, they should grant ID when force is activated, while Psilencers should be S6 AP-. But I that's just my opinion. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3967552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Jeff nailed it. Riptides supply exactly that category of firepower, and it's not exactly uncommon outside Tau either. Paladins on the battlefield don't live any longer than Terminators do, despite 2 wounds and a cheap FNP upgrade. None of that ever matters. I don't think we need far-ranging fixes for Paladins. Just make them 40ppm. 55pts per dude is the real issue. Bring their price down to normal Terminator cost, and it fixes a lot of things elegantly. Normal Termies are still the budget option that also fills Troops, but now you can get slightly better Terminators for a minor price increase. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3967905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I don't think of 2 dreadknights as playing competitively.... It's more like playing to stay in the game. I used to use terminators and power armour and dreadnoughts (and basically everything), but they always died super fast and were basically a waste of points, which was boring and pointless, so instead I started taking a dreadknight, which was cool, but then after 2 games started dying just as quickly as my terminators did... So, then I started taking 2! Now I actually get to do something, they dont die turn 2 or 3 anymore, and they actually get into combat (unlike terminators half the time) But recently it's been getting to the point where 2 dreadknights don't even make even half their points back. And since they are literally THE most competitive unit in our codex, and 2 clearly still isn't even enough, then I can't blame people for using more or bringing in imperial knights. Because if my most competitive "net list" as everyone likes to say, fails to only semi competitive regular lists, then who are you to call the "net list" competitive in the first place? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3967909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Just make them 40ppm. Yes please! That would make them Auto Includes. :) 5 terminators, for twice the wounds and twice the Special Weapons! Poor 'nilla Marines would cry rivers about thier Tactical Terminators! :P Generally though, all TDA needs a boost. Whether it's upping the 5++ to 4++, or giving suits +1T. Poor TDA needs something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3967979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
robotoctopuss Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 +1 toughness for paladins is an excellent Idea. CSM have T5 out the wazoo, so it's not that big of a stretch. For me it would certainly make them worth the points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3968107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 +1 toughness for paladins is an excellent Idea. CSM have T5 out the wazoo, so it's not that big of a stretch. For me it would certainly make them worth the points. Thats a good point actually.... If all terminators were Indeed buffed to toughness 5, then chaos could get toughness 6 nurgle terminators, which is a liiiil over the top, unless the nurgle upgrade cost a ton! But then they'd also get toughness 5 with 4++ with Mark of slanesh or whatever, which isn't over the top, but is pretty brutal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3968206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 enerally though, all TDA needs a boost. Whether it's upping the 5++ to 4++, or giving suits +1T. Poor TDA needs something. Nah, this is what needs to happen; - Tac Terminators are made 30ppm across all Marines. We stay at 33ppm, as a tax for 'Force' and 'Hammerhand' (and our Turn 1 Deepstrike). - Assault Terminators are made 30ppm as well. +10pts to swap for thunderhammer and storm shield. - Deathwing Knights are 35ppm (to represent their +1 Toughness ability and variable melee), Paladins are 40ppm with a 15pt Apothecary upgrade Suddenly, Sternguard and Purifiers are no longer automatically better selections, they're just comparably better at shooting/psychic shooting. Price is the cleanest and easiest way to balance units. Make them less of a burden to fit into a list, and you make a unit more attractive. And if you want to limit spam or make something more of a judgement call, make it more expensive and push it into a more contested army slot. Riptides should be 250pts and a Heavy Support choice etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3968687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Problem is (as we see with the relationship betweeen our GKT and PAGK) price reductions impact all units across the entire Codex. Drop the price of GKT and the fragile balance between them and PAGK are shattered and PAGK become *utterly* worthless. Drop the price on PAGK, to make them a viable choice again and TDA *costs too much* becuase it's just not as survivable. Drop the Price on NDK and they suddently become the best unit int he entire Dex and outperform every other choice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3968883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Drop the price of GKT and the fragile balance between them and PAGK are shattered and PAGK become *utterly* worthless. What are you talking about? Our Terminators are 33ppm now. I'm not advocating dropping them lower (33 is a steal). Strikes need their psycannons back and no Justicar tax (Sarge taxes across 40k should be abolished, they're incredibly dumb). Salvo needs to die in a fire as well. Drop the price on PAGK, to make them a viable choice again and TDA *costs too much* becuase it's just not as survivable. 20 for Strikes and 25 for Purifiers is very competitive dude. I really don't see how they could be cheaper, without making other Marines worthless trash. Drop the Price on NDK and they suddently become the best unit int he entire Dex and outperform every other choice. Again, I'm not saying the DK has to be cheaper. If anything it's a little undercosted at the moment, although I'm okay with that (it's not like we can take much more with the extra points, everything else is as expensive or more so). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3968894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 Personally I find Pallies with Servin Loth near invincible, while the Invis is up ...and yet huge fire magnet ... however the GKT are on the same page; although 5man sq is more maneuverable than 10man for GoI. On the other hand, I while thinking math/rationally GKTs beat the pallies ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3968932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Personally I find Pallies with Servin Loth near invincible, while the Invis is up ...and yet huge fire magnet ... however the GKT are on the same page; although 5man sq is more maneuverable than 10man for GoI. On the other hand, I while thinking math/rationally GKTs beat the pallies ... Loth makes anything amazing. There are ways around 'Invis' too, don't forget. It's a crutch I'd rather avoid. Biomancy is better on Loth anyway, he turns into an unstoppable wrecking ball with 'Iron Arm' and 'Endurance' up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3968940 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 Personally I find Pallies with Servin Loth near invincible, while the Invis is up ...and yet huge fire magnet ... however the GKT are on the same page; although 5man sq is more maneuverable than 10man for GoI. On the other hand, I while thinking math/rationally GKTs beat the pallies ... Loth makes anything amazing. There are ways around 'Invis' too, don't forget. It's a crutch I'd rather avoid. Biomancy is better on Loth anyway, he turns into an unstoppable wrecking ball with 'Iron Arm' and 'Endurance' up. I have been out of 40k for some time, therefore I do not know any way around invis; beyond the deny. Please be more specific Thank you ~BT PS. Although endurance-ed Palies might cut the edge over the GKT's ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3968953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I think iron arm on top of hammerhand would be rather funny, especially with falchions, each terminator getting 4 strength 10 ap3 attacks on the charge is nuts. (although things with a 2+ save will stil just laugh at you) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/#findComment-3969005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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