Paladins - what so bad about them ?

[Gentlemanloser]

RD, I'm going back to our original dex, and the almost perfect balance between our two Troop choices.

 

40ppm for GKT, 20ppm for PAGK.

 

Those prices were almost spot on.  TDA was *almost* twice as survivable, with *almost* twice the number of attack, on half the minis.

 

Making them very close for internal balance.

 

Dropping TDA to 33ppm, while making GKT much better has destroyed the internal balance of our 20ppm PAGK.  The comparison between the two units now is so bad, you will *never* take a Strike Squad, regardless of them gettign hosed on Psycannons to top it off.

 

Our PAGK need to go down to around half the cost of our GKT, just to make them comparable again.

 

And when you do, the same problems with TDA survivabilty appear.

 

The end result for both being cheaper is only;

 

We get more on the table (and GW makes more money off us).

 

It doesn't address out internal balance in any way.

[jeffersonian000]

The issue with Strikers is Salvo Psycannons and costing more than 20ppm. That's it, nothing else, was a fantastic if expensive unit pre-Salvo. Strikers are our Scouts, and much like Scouts in other Marine armies, they should be cheap enough and flexible enough to be worth taking over Tac Squads (our GKT). At the moment, they are not.

 

Yes, price rebalancing slews the playability of units, as seen by the refocusing of Librarians, GKT and NDK over any other unit in the Dex. However, even if our Dreadnoughts got a 25ppm price drop they would still be garbage, yet with Skyfire at their current price, they would fill the Elite slot with no compatitiion.

 

SJ

[Zembar]

It doesn't address out internal balance in any way.

 

Considering the codex we have now, I'm pretty sure they don't care one whit about our internal balance.

 

The only slots where there's any kind of consideration involved are HQ(but 99% of the time the answer will be Librarian) and FA(Both Stormravens and Interceptors have their moments.)

[kaz'sax]

If your pa guys went down in price wouldn't vanilla marines need to be like 7 points? The price you pay for them now is already a steal for the gear they get in comparison?

[Gentlemanloser]

However, even if our Dreadnoughts got a 25ppm price drop they would still be garbage, yet with Skyfire at their current price, they would fill the Elite slot with no compatitiion.

Which is why price changing is a bad way to balance a units issues.

The unit has to be fit for purpose first and foremost.

Price comes after.

[jeffersonian000]

If your pa guys went down in price wouldn't vanilla marines need to be like 7 points? The price you pay for them now is already a steal for the gear they get in comparison?

No. It is a fallacy to assume one unit is priced compared to a similar unit in another army. Units are priced in comparison to other units in the same army. With our GKT at 33ppm, our Strikers should be 20ppm, which has no baring on on 40ppm SM Termies nor 10ppm SM PA, because those units are prices versus each other and not versus their GK counterparts.

 

At the moment, GKT and GKSS are too close in price to fairly represent their usefulness within their own codex, just like GKT and Paladins are priced too far apart to represent their differences.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

Strikes are 20ppm. ;)  The Justicar tax is too hard to add in indiviudals, due to variable squad sizes.

 

Strikes need to drop to ~17ppm to be comparable to our new 33ppm GKT.

 

Probably cheaper, if you use price to compensate for things like the Psycannon nerf.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Urgh, no they do not GML. Lets look at a Tac Marine and a Strike Knight;

 

16ppm: Bolter, bolt pistol, frags, kraks, power armour, Chapter Tactics, drop pod for transport

20ppm: Storm bolter, AP3 sword, frags, kraks, power armour, Aegis, Mastery 1, Hammerhand, Force, Deepstrike

 

At 20ppm, Strikes are fine. Their issue is their firepower. Incinerators are meh, psilencer is unusable due to still being Heavy 6 (wth), and psycannon is now Salvo. That's what's killing them and what makes Termies always better. If Strikes could bring 24" psycannon on the cheap, they'd be comparable as a shooty alternative. 

 

33ppm for Termies doesn't make Strikes useless. Strikes can still bring twice the bodies and firepower, IF psycannons weren't totally useless on PA units. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Urgh, no they do not GML. Lets look at a Tac Marine and a Strike Knight;

 

Let's not. ;)

 

 

 

16ppm: Bolter, bolt pistol, frags, kraks, power armour, Chapter Tactics, drop pod for transport

20ppm: Storm bolter, AP3 sword, frags, kraks, power armour, Aegis, Mastery 1, Hammerhand, Force, Deepstrike

 

Access to Melta, Lascannon, Grav, etc.

 

Apples to Oranges. ;)

 

 

 

At 20ppm, Strikes are fine.

 

When GKT were 40ppm.  Yes.

 

Now, no.  GKT are better in every single category.  Survivability, Firepower, CC, Durability.

 

There is nothing Strikes beat GKT at now.

 

 

 

33ppm for Termies doesn't make Strikes useless.

 

It does.

 

 

 

Strikes can still bring twice the bodies and firepower

 

Not for the same total points.

 

5 GKT = 165

 

10 Strike (Ignoring Justicar Tax, as it's stupid anyway) = 200

 

Twice the bodies, 21% increase in cost.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Access to Melta, Lascannon, Grav, etc.

 

Kek. When was the last time you saw any of that taken on Tacs? Or Tacs taken at all? Answer; never. Our special weapon selection is way better, even with awful Salvo. Marines would kill for incinerators. 

When GKT were 40ppm.  Yes.

 

Now, no.  GKT are better in every single category.  Survivability, Firepower, CC, Durability.

 

There is nothing Strikes beat GKT at now.

 

Not against AP2. Strikes bring more bodies. Yes, it's no longer twice (note I also suggest the Justicar tax and Salvo rules need to die in a fire). But you're still getting more dudes, which means more wounds. Strikes also bring more attacks (if you include charging), and more Warp Charge. If their firepower wasn't so badly crippled, they'd have a place as a cheaper alternative. As is, I agree, Terminators beat them on too many criteria. 

Not for the same total points.

 

5 GKT = 165

 

10 Strike (Ignoring Justicar Tax, as it's stupid anyway) = 200

 

Twice the bodies, 21% increase in cost.

 

Yeah, but no one fields naked Terminators. Psycannon+hammer is standard issue, so Termies are usually 195 anyway. Strikes would never take psilencer or psycannon, so assuming two incinerators (which is reasonable), it's not that big a gap, 15pts. That's nothing. 

 

Now, I wish to point out, I would never field Strikes as they are now. Never. I agree. But take away Salvo, take away Justicar tax...I'm far more inclined to at least try them out. Especially in double NSF list, where I'm spamming DK's and I don't wanna spend much in Troops. 390pts in Troop is currently what I spend, for 10 dudes as a tax to my 4x DK's with trimmings. 

[Captain Coolpants]

I still like our strikes, and incinerators are absolutely amazing! Its a heavy Flamer, with +1 strength, soul blaze and half the price! Storm bolters are awesome on everything, but only 1 attack is sucky, but deep strike is awesome.

 

I love them with falchions for the extra attack, but I always feel bad about doing it because for 1 extra point I can get purifiers with loads of extras, but they lose deepstrike! Which makes them a no go. So there's balance there I guess haha.

Purgation squads are just utter :cusse! If they had deepstrike, then I'd happily deepstrike suicide squads with 4 incinerators.

[Zembar]

Wait, this is a paladin thread!

 

I mustn't forget to push my personal suggestion for fixing paladins: +1T and optional personal teleporters!

Also, Dreadnoughts need access to NDK weapons.

 

That is all. I should probably save this post in a text file somewhere for next time.

[Gentlemanloser]

Personal Teleporter Terminators/Paladin would be so, so good.

 

 

 

Kek. When was the last time you saw any of that taken on Tacs? Or Tacs taken at all? Answer; never. Our special weapon selection is way better, even with awful Salvo. Marines would kill for incinerators. 

 

And we'd kill for MElta/Grav.  Don't deny it, if you could take Grav weaponry, you would! :P

 

Point stands, Tac squads are priced on thier codex, with thier options.  Not compared to our Strikes.

 

Now, you might say this is a bad thing, with there essentially being a single 'Imperial' Army now (for all intents and purposes).

 

But that's a seperate thread. ;)  And a seperate GW failing!

 

 

 

Not against AP2.

 

Of course not.  The same stands for when they were 40ppm as well.  That's why the durability is looked at across all save ranges.

 

You can't just pick and choose to support your arguement mate. ;)

 

Well, you can, but it weakens your position. :P

 

 

 

note I also suggest the Justicar tax and Salvo rules need to die in a fire

 

Preaching to the choir brother.  Preaching to the choir!

 

 

 

But take away Salvo, take away Justicar tax...I'm far more inclined to at least try them out. Especially in double NSF list, where I'm spamming DK's and I don't wanna spend much in Troops.

 

That's no longer a benefit of Strike, as a unit.  But rather how to limit the Troop Tax as much as possible to load up on DKs.

 

If we still had henchmen, no one would take Strike (and quite possibly GKT!) and take as little Hench as possible to load up on MOAR NDKS!

 

;)

[Captain Coolpants]

Personal teleporter terminators/paladins would be da :cuss!

 

But then we wouldn't want interceptors, so they'd go on the useless pile with purgators

[Gentlemanloser]

/meh, they're mostly already there anyway.

[Darkmagi]

Honestly I'd like to see a return to the stats from the daemon hunters codex for strikes, psycannons, incenerators, and terminators... the new units, abilities and point costs can be modified based on those original stats....

[Reclusiarch Darius]

And we'd kill for MElta/Grav. Don't deny it, if you could take Grav weaponry, you would!

Point stands, Tac squads are priced on thier codex, with thier options. Not compared to our Strikes.

Now, you might say this is a bad thing, with there essentially being a single 'Imperial' Army now (for all intents and purposes).

But that's a seperate thread. And a seperate GW failing!

Nope. Psycannon is actually mathematically better at killing armour at all ranges (even melta range). Chipping off HP is how you kill tanks these days, and psycannon does a great job. Melta relies on you rolling a 5+ on the damage roll, it's far more risky. Grav doesn't interest us at all, not over a psycannon which functionally does the same job but also can kill hordes just fine as well.

Of course not. The same stands for when they were 40ppm as well. That's why the durability is looked at across all save ranges.

You can't just pick and choose to support your arguement mate.

Well, you can, but it weakens your position.

Wat?

That's no longer a benefit of Strike, as a unit. But rather how to limit the Troop Tax as much as possible to load up on DKs.

If we still had henchmen, no one would take Strike (and quite possibly GKT!) and take as little Hench as possible to load up on MOAR NDKS!

Don't remind me. I still weep thinking of all the builds that died instantly when Inquisition got stripped out.

(lights a candle for Coteaz)

We shall endure...

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Grav doesn't interest us at all, not over a psycannon which functionally does the same job but also can kill hordes just fine as well. 

 

Please...

 

You see Draigo babysitting Grav Centurions and not Psycannon Paladin for a reason. ;)

 

 

 

Not against AP2. Strikes bring more bodies.

 

Your mathahhamer is off.  Not against 2 is a 'duh' thing.  And the same reason existed when they were 40ppm.  When looking across all save ranges, TDA were generally twice as durable as PA.  Which is good as you got twice as many PA dudes for your TDA.  Balance.

 

Obviously, if you look at *just* AP2, then TDA is worse than PA.  TDA only offers a 5++ save, but costs twice as much for only 1/3 more protection.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Please...

You see Draigo babysitting Grav Centurions and not Psycannon Paladin for a reason.

Au contraire mon chere. Draigo left the Paladins for the Grav-Cents for artistic reasons. Nothing to do with Tau Mont'ly rating the Paladins as 'has-been, would not Intercept/10'.

Your mathahhamer is off. Not against 2 is a 'duh' thing. And the same reason existed when they were 40ppm. When looking across all save ranges, TDA were generally twice as durable as PA. Which is good as you got twice as many PA dudes for your TDA. Balance.

Obviously, if you look at *just* AP2, then TDA is worse than PA. TDA only offers a 5++ save, but costs twice as much for only 1/3 more protection.

Well, AP2 matters, because Riptides exist (as do a whole swathe of other long-range AP2 options too, it's not just a Tau matchup problem). So, me losing my entire squad due to failing invul is painful and depressing. Me losing only half the squad because the other half is combat squadded/isn't dead is a big deal.

Look, I'm not disagreeing with you. Termies are our go-to Troops choice, and they actually were before as well (even at 40ppm, swinging at Initiative 6 in TDA was huge). Strikes sucked at melee by comparison in the last codex too. But, if they still shot twice as well as Termies, they'd be good in that role still (somewhat...losing psybolts is another huge blow to the unit that cannot be recovered from, arguably more than Salvo psycannon in some ways).

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Nothing to do with Tau Mont'ly rating the Paladins as 'has-been, would not Intercept/10'. 

 

:D

 

 

 

 Me losing only half the squad because the other half is combat squadded/isn't dead is a big deal. 

 

Except the whole squad was eaten by an allied Helldrake (or other AP3 nasty, like Reapers), where as your full TDA suqad would probably have survived. ;)

 

Now, if we *only* face Riptides and/or AP2 attacks, sure.

 

 

 

Look, I'm not disagreeing with you.

 

I know. :)  Not gonna stop me debating! ;)

 

 

 

Termies are our go-to Troops choice, and they actually were before as well (even at 40ppm, swinging at Initiative 6 in TDA was huge). Strikes sucked at melee by comparison in the last codex too. But, if they still shot twice as well as Termies, they'd be good in that role still (somewhat...losing psybolts is another huge blow to the unit that cannot be recovered from, arguably more than Salvo psycannon in some ways). 

 

The only time TDA was used as go to troops were for Ghost Knights. ;)

 

Solodins, Henchman and Strikes were used.  Rarely Crowe led Puris.  When 5 Paladin + 10 Strikes not only output more attacks, but had more psycannons and more wounds than 10 GKT, for *equal* (or cheaper) points costs, you know something was *wrong*.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Except the whole squad was eaten by an allied Helldrake (or other AP3 nasty, like Reapers), where as your full TDA suqad would probably have survived.

Now, if we *only* face Riptides and/or AP2 attacks, sure.

Probably. Heldrakes are actually lot less popular now they don't have 360noscope on their baleflamer (thank Throne that FAQ came out).

The only time TDA was used as go to troops were for Ghost Knights.

Solodins, Henchman and Strikes were used. Rarely Crowe led Puris. When 5 Paladin + 10 Strikes not only output more attacks, but had more psycannons and more wounds than 10 GKT, for *equal* (or cheaper) points costs, you know something was *wrong*.

You know, I actually feel physical pain knowing how diverse our old book was. Like, kill me now. None of those things even exist anymore. All because some idiot listening to the whining in 5th and still thought we were good.

[Happy-inquisitor]

Hello brothers,

I am getting back to this hobby, getting dust of from both of my armies, while still getting into the meta. I do not understand why so many of you bash paladins so bad ?

I do understand their price being somewhere near double the termie squad, however we do have techs how to make paladins survive long enough (sanc, shrouded, invis etc...) while termies might fail in this category.

Moreover, with addition of fast drop pods in allied codexes/ Draigos gate they might be somehow useful.

Therefore I would like to ask you how to run them effectively, or how not to run them at all (preferred substitution), on the other hand please no super competitive combos

~ BT

If you take paladins bare-bones then what you get are slightly improved terminators for a significant increase in the cost. There is really not much point in doing that.

They do have a couple of options to do unique things that a terminator squad cannot.

The first of these is to take a banner. A 12" bubble of keeping your GK in the fight with improved morale and making them hit harder with +1A can work wonders if you are concentrating your force on attacking one part of the enemy line - it can easily buff over half your force.

The second is the ability to take an apothecary which grants FNP not just to them but to an attached IC. Draigo with FNP is hilariously hard to kill and is just the wound-tank that a unit of paladins needs when deep-striking in against STR8 interceptor fire.

If you take paladins then I think you do it for one or both of the reasons above and you then want to make sure you have other units in your list that maximise the benefits. This is expensive but it is not exactly a death-star because its fundamental role is to make your whole army harder to knock out of the fight and more effective in that fight. I do not think that this would be a GT winning list but then if lictor spam only just barely beats scout spam to win the biggest GT of them all then what do any of us know until we try?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The first of these is to take a banner. A 12" bubble of keeping your GK in the fight with improved morale and making them hit harder with +1A can work wonders if you are concentrating your force on attacking one part of the enemy line - it can easily buff over half your force.

 

Except Leadership never matters for us. We are Ld9 across the board, and ATSKNF means Morale is never an issue (Purifiers are Fearless as well). The +1A is nice, but I miss auto-Force more. 

you take paladins then I think you do it for one or both of the reasons above and you then want to make sure you have other units in your list that maximise the benefits. This is expensive but it is not exactly a death-star because its fundamental role is to make your whole army harder to knock out of the fight and more effective in that fight. I do not think that this would be a GT winning list but then if lictor spam only just barely beats scout spam to win the biggest GT of them all then what do any of us know until we try?

 

That game is a red herring. Lictor spam is retarded, in the same way that Scout spam is. RNG is just about the only good explanation for that result, and it's only one tourney too. Mission objectives play a big part, as do scenario design. 

[Quozzo]

So. Paladins.

 

The reason they are so bad, is because they are 22 points more than a terminators. That comes out as exactly 2/3 more expensive. Only 11 points short of a terminator. What you get for those 22 points is an extra wound and an extra special weapon. That's it. For 11 points more, the price of a storm bolter and lightning claw (for BA) you get an extra model. It might sound like the same as an extra wound but as it's on another model then any ID shots will only ever reduce your wound count by one, not two. You also get an extra two attacks in melee and an extra warp charge. Paying those extra 11 points also negates the special weapon bonus that the paladins get because a full squad of terminator, or two squads of terminators allow an extra special weapon.

 

Sure you could pay for the banner for the paladins, but that would only bring the price difference closer without the benefits of extra storm bolter shots, wound buffers, warp charges, etc, without actually getting the +2A that a terminator model would, plus the extra attack for charging. The one thing that I would commend the paladins for, is being able to mastercraft the psycannons. You could do this with the terminator justicar but as he is also the character then he will get singled out in a challenge, paladins are not characters and can not accept or declare challenges. I also think the wording doesnt allow the justicar to take a special weapon as it specifically states GK Terminator, not a model.

 

1x Justicar, 9x Terminators, 2x Psycannon (370)

10 models, 10 wounds, 16 storm bolter shots, 8 psycannon shots, 20 melee attacks (30 charging), 1|2 warp charges.

 

5 paladins, 2 psycannons (305)

5 models, 10 wounds, 6 storm bolter shots, 8 psycannon shots, 10 melee attacks (15 charging), 1 warp charge.

 

You could buy the banner and the apothecary to help mitigate the obvious deficiencies, to bring it on par with the terminators, but why pay for the compromise when terminators are an option, and our troops choice. If you want a suicide squad that would teleport down turn one and destory a threat before it can retaliate, then paladins might be an option if you don't know what allies are for, but beyond that I don't see a use for them that terminators can cover.

[Prot]

I know I'm late to this debate, and I don't think anything will change by saying this... nevertheless:

 

I've put a lot of time into terminator based armies of every description you can imagine. To date, I think the most useful (I won't use dangerous words like: Efficient, powerful, or strong) is Chaos Termicide.  But this isn't a chaos thread....

 

I started a thread in Adeptus called Terminators should be Wraiths. After playing my new Necrons several times I felt that a 3+/4++(Uber FnP on T5) is the way to go forward with every upright xenos having access to AP2 a plenty.

 

Regarding Paladins specifically I'll tell you what I learned from playing Deathwing: The strength in that unit is ALWAYS going to be a force multiplier. As crazy as it sounds, I strongly believe you're hurting yourself even more if you take paladins without the Apothecary. Especially considering the multi-wound situation.

 

I'm not saying this is even "good". Terminators, I've been saying for over 10 years on the BnC, are my favorite unit in 40K. Sadly I feel confident saying Terminators are in the worst position they've ever been in currently. BUT if I were taking Paladins, there's no way I'd personally take them without an Apothecary.

 

Just my 2 cents. I don't have math hammer behind it, simply experience. Deathwing are also over costed (all terminators are really) and they really remind me of Paladins in the sense that someone at GW is looking at a designer's White Board from 1995 and it says Terminators have a base cost of XX "because they're awesome". Put the so called "premium" benefits of "Shield Wall" or multi-wounds or weapon access (which happens to wax and wane with every new codex that comes out) and you've got this beautiful looking unit, that is horrendously inefficient.

 

Sorry to rant, but there are few things in this game that I have a bigger love/hate relationship over Terminators. ;)