Quozzo Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 An apothecary will undoubtedly increase the survival or paladins, unless they're being hit by Strength 8 weaponry which can't roll for FnP. That's the problem, anyone worth their salt in 40K will target paladins with AP2 weaponry, which traditionally comes in two flavours, Strength 8 or strength 10. These will negate the armour and FnP, making the extra wound useless too. It's why terminators have been hit hard but it's why paladins feel the pain even further. A Sanguinary Priest can be bought as an ally from C:BA for cheaper than a paladin upgraded to an apothecary, but you have the choice of putting him into normal terminator squads which will draw a lot of low strength fire, where the FnP will shine. They can even DS alongside terimators in turn one due to Jump Packs but are not restricted to terminators, strikes, purifiers and even paladins can benefit more from Sanguinary Priests, as the relic jump pack largely renders intercept useless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3979646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 An apothecary will undoubtedly increase the survival or paladins, unless they're being hit by Strength 8 weaponry which can't roll for FnP. That's the problem, anyone worth their salt in 40K will target paladins with AP2 weaponry, which traditionally comes in two flavours, Strength 8 or strength 10. These will negate the armour and FnP, making the extra wound useless too. It's why terminators have been hit hard but it's why paladins feel the pain even further. This is the exact reason why GKT are the better buy over Paladins, a Lascannon kills exactly half as many GKT as it does Pallies. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3979654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy-inquisitor Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 The first of these is to take a banner. A 12" bubble of keeping your GK in the fight with improved morale and making them hit harder with +1A can work wonders if you are concentrating your force on attacking one part of the enemy line - it can easily buff over half your force. Except Leadership never matters for us. We are Ld9 across the board, and ATSKNF means Morale is never an issue (Purifiers are Fearless as well). The +1A is nice, but I miss auto-Force more. Leadership is pretty much irrelevant if you are running Codex:Dreadknight - which is one of the advantages of that style of list. Nothing that takes points away from NDK really fits in that list so definitely no Paladins. Dreadknights really don't get any worthwhile benefit from the banner anyway, if they are your main plan of battle then the banner will not make a jot of difference and so would be wasted points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3979914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Leadership is irrelevant to us regardless of build. Ld9 and ATSKNF basically means any Fall Back move is temporary and benefits us, and Purifiers are Fearless anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3980042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I'd really love Terminator armour to give +1 Toughness or +1 wound in addition to +1 attack and 2+ save. Base T5 Termies or 3 Wound Paladins (appropriately costed of course) would be great. As it is, Termies just feel like Tactical Marines +1, instead of being the ultra-elite indestructible anvils of the Imperium. Centurions really rub salt into the wound because instead of addressing the problems with Terminators they built a new super-infantry unit. Centurions are what Terminators should have been. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3980070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I'd really love Terminator armour to give +1 Toughness or +1 wound in addition to +1 attack and 2+ save. Base T5 Termies or 3 Wound Paladins (appropriately costed of course) would be great. As it is, Termies just feel like Tactical Marines +1, instead of being the ultra-elite indestructible anvils of the Imperium. Centurions really rub salt into the wound because instead of addressing the problems with Terminators they built a new super-infantry unit. Centurions are what Terminators should have been. I think +1 Wound wouldn't be so bad. Toughness boosts kinda don't mean anything, Riptides and other high Strength still wound really easily anyway (that's why Nurgle Terminators don't exist, but Slanneshi and Tzeentch-marked are sometimes seen). The main issue with Terminators isn't them persay (they could do with a price reduction), it's with the insane proliferation of AP2. These days, it's largely meaningless what your armour save is outside of melee combat (where the incredibly dumb AP system for power weapons means only the cool kids get AP2, everyone else is stuck with pleb AP3). Not to mention firepower output in general is up, which means more wounds, which means more forced saves. Back in the day, causing 6 wounds per Termie was a tall order, even if you fired your entire army at them. Now, you can break their 2+ armour with 2-3 units, less if you're Tau or Eldar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3980177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 Terminator armour should really get the 1+ / 5++ save; where 1+ means that you can roll for save for every AP better than AP1, while rolling 1 counts as fail. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3980242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Terminator armour should really get the 1+ / 5++ save; where 1+ means that you can roll for save for every AP better than AP1, while rolling 1 counts as fail. Really? why not Stength 12? Seriously... only addition to paladins would be acces to Sanctuary and maybe Thougness 5 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3980292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionicman Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Leadership is irrelevant to us regardless of build. Ld9 and ATSKNF basically means any Fall Back move is temporary and benefits us, and Purifiers are Fearless anyway. ...until you get hit by this new harlequin power where you roll 2 LD test to determine casulties through difference. Even with aegis and such - people watch out! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3980295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodTzar Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 Terminator armour should really get the 1+ / 5++ save; where 1+ means that you can roll for save for every AP better than AP1, while rolling 1 counts as fail. Really? why not Stength 12? Seriously... only addition to paladins would be acces to Sanctuary and maybe Thougness 5 Like back in a day we were thinking Draigo+Necrons fighting togheter is heresy ... however allied matrix proved you wrong ... GW is pandoras box in terms of "creative" thinking therefore I would not bash S12 this easy.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3980299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 ...until you get hit by this new harlequin power where you roll 2 LD test to determine casulties through difference. Even with aegis and such - people watch out! Yeah but how many Shadowseers will they have? Like 2-3 at most? We'll still easily have more Deny dice than them in any given psychic phase, and all of our anti-psyker passives trigger if the enemy power targets us (Aegis, base 5+ to Deny, Librarian brings that up to a 4+ with Adamantium Will from Stave...and if he's Mastery 3 he Denies on a 3+ with re-rolls to 1's). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3980327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 Terminator armour should really get the 1+ / 5++ save; where 1+ means that you can roll for save for every AP better than AP1, while rolling 1 counts as fail. I'd be happier with a 2+ 4++ as base. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3980822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I'd be happier with a 2+ 4++ as base. Yeah I think that would be the cleanest fix. 5+ invul is pathetic, it doesn't stop anything, you still lose most of your models when you're hit with AP2. It would also mean 'Sanctuary' would matter a lot more. Iron Halo's would probably need to be re-worked though, as they're kinda pointless if you take TDA. Maybe grant a 3+ invul against shooting? That way you could make storm shields grant a 3+ invul against melee only. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3980879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I'd be happier with a 2+ 4++ as base. Yeah I think that would be the cleanest fix. 5+ invul is pathetic, it doesn't stop anything, you still lose most of your models when you're hit with AP2. It would also mean 'Sanctuary' would matter a lot more. Iron Halo's would probably need to be re-worked though, as they're kinda pointless if you take TDA. Maybe grant a 3+ invul against shooting? That way you could make storm shields grant a 3+ invul against melee only. I actually really like that. But the storm shields would need to be given a cool new rule, I doubt people's would be happy when they find out their prized hammernators are now less effective than regular terminators against xeno shooting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3981068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeptus Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Eh, just keep them as a 3++. It just narrows the gap in survivability between hammernators and everyone else, and since Hammernators lack any kind of ranged power in a game that passively punishes assault units, I think that's fair. Iron Halo's might need to be fiddled with though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3981078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 I actually really like that. But the storm shields would need to be given a cool new rule, I doubt people's would be happy when they find out their prized hammernators are now less effective than regular terminators against xeno shooting. Shields only granting bonuses in melee makes sense. It used to be how storm shields worked anyway. Ward brought in the 3+ invul all day version that put Stormhammers into the big leagues forever more, back in 5th. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3981096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Really? why not Stength 12? Becuase S12 breaks the rules while a 1+ Save doesn't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304204-paladins-what-so-bad-about-them/page/3/#findComment-3981205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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