How does a balanced list kill Knights, Riptides, etc?

[ShinyRhino]

Let me preface this post by saying that I like to run "balanced" lists with a mix of different units and armaments. I don't do things like 5-man Command Squads in drop pods, all armed with the same weapon. It's just not my thing.

That being said, how does a balanced Space Marine army defeat Imperial Knights, Riptides, and Wraithknights in multiple, all on the same day?

 

You see, my FLGS runs rampant with lists/armies that run one to three Imperial Knights, double Riptides backed up by a sea of Broadsides and Suits (all with drones), and Eldar with one or two Wraithknights backed up by MSU jetbikes and Serpents.

 

I'll freely admit that I've fallen behind the times when it comes to units. I don't have Centurions, masses of grav guns, flyers, etc. I certainly CAN acquire all those things and field them, I just haven't done so yet.

 

The core of my question is this: can a balanced list that uses a variety of units reliably beat three armies that contain Knights, Riptides, or Wraithknights in a single day, without tailoring between games?

[Jacinda]

To me a balanced list is one that has answers for all threats. Sometimes the answer may be to ignore the threat and kill all troops, but at least you have a plan. Sometimes that answer is 5 Dominions with melta guns in a Rerpressor. I give my tank hunters the tools they need to hunt tanks. I give my horde shredders the tools they need to shred hordes. I want my units focused on their roles and reliant on each other for a balanced army. I feel that trying to do it all weakens a units ability to do anything and raises the costs prohibitively.

 

In short, don't discount a drop pod of special weapons because you see some people spam them. One is probably enough, anyway. Then support those special weapons with units that can get into close combat, shoot down flyers or add fire support at range.

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

Indeed don't discount a unit with 4 or 5 special weapons. Personally I'm thinking of trying a mono tzeench csm list won't be using rubics at all but my way of dealing with knights will be either ignore them chuck a doom bolt or 2 at them or get some cheap anti tank (tzeench Havocs with ML) to hunt them

[L30n1d4s]

So, if I understand correctly, you are running a standard C: SM army. Without spamming or running an "unbalanced" army, here are some ideas to help against Riptides, Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, etc:

 

1 - Stormravens -- These have been all-stars in my list and I pretty much take two, each carrying a 5 man Scout Squad with MBs on the Sgt, in any SM detachment I run. Armed with TLed MM, TLed Lascannon, and 4 x S8 AP2 Missiles (with POTMS they can fire both main weapons and three missiles the turn they come in from reserves) and used as in pairs, they have provided me excellen anti-flyer, anti-mech, anti-TEQ and, to your point, anti-Monstrous Creature shooting. Since they are flying they have the mobility and LOS of site to be hitting with all weapons basically every turn. On average, a pair of Stormravens equipped as above shooting at, say, enemy Wraith Knights should inflict about 4 unsaved wounds a turn (unless the Wraithknight has cover or the 5++ shield). While it may take multiple turns or combining with firepower from the rest of your army, this is  avery solid anti-MC/anti-Lord of War batle-group.

 

2 - Sternguard with Combi-Meltas and a Divination Librarian (Tigurius, Mantis Warrior Libbys, or an allied psykers), all in a Drop Pod -- Drop in, pop Presience for re-rolls, and hit your target with 10 meltas... against a Riptide, you will average 4-5 unsaved wounds, which should be enough to kill it (especially if you come in from the right angle so that its Drones don't get to absorb your shooting).... against a WraithKnight, same scenario nets you an average of 4-5 unsaved wounds, so almost enough to kill it one volley (a little help from Sniper Scouts or Lascannon Predators should be able to finish those last wounds off)... against an Imperial Knight, if you can hit the side without the Void Shield and get within 6" for the Melta rule, then you can quite reliably kill a Knight in a single round of shooting. Of course, the good thing about Sternguard is that, while quite expensive, after their initial "alpha strike" they still have great value, being able to use their Specialist Ammo against multiple different targets for the rest of the game. As with everything, best used in pairs, so you can target two Wraithknights, Riptides, etc. simultaneously, adding to the "shock" value if you remove two of them in a single shooting phase.

 

3 - Forgeworld Spartan Assault Tank -- I have been singing the praises of this vehicle for a while. Outside of its top-notch survivability and transport capacity, it has exceptional shooting as well. 4 x TLed Lascannon shots a turn (which can "split-fire" onto two different targets using POTMS) is quite potent and can rpaidly bring down your targets, especially if you can support them with other shooting and/or bring them in pairs (expensive, but potent). As with Sternguard, Spartan Assault Tanks have very solid value against almost any opponent you face, so you are not "tayloring" your list just to take on Knights or MCs.

 

4 - TH/SS Terminators in Assault -- While it will take a turn or two to get there, if these guys can get stuck in with any of the units you mentioned in the OP, they should reliably take them down and suffer minimal casualties back, thanks to 3++ Stormshield saves. Of course, that is the key... getting them into assault. I recommend using the Escape Hatch trick (i.e. start embarked on a friendly fortification with an Escape Hatch upgrade that is positioned 12" toward the enemy DZ; turn 1, disembark from the Escape Hatch 6" and run another D6" for a net 19-24" "slingshot" toward the enemy DZ, which gives you a very good chance of a turn 2 charge), using White Scars Terminators in a DT Land Raider (with Khan, they get free Scout move, so 12" Scout, 12" normal move, 6" flat out, total of 30" advancing all before turn 2 starts), or using a Librarian with Levitation power (6" move, 12" additional move in the psychic phase, D6" run for net 19-24" movement turn 1) to get the Terminators positioned for a Turn 2+ charge, thus maximizing the amount of time they can be in close combat during the game.

 

5 - Aquila Strongpoint with Macro-Cannon -- With 2 LBs a turn and Destroyer Strength, this will do very solid damage if it hits at all and, if you happen to roll any 6+s to wound, you basically instantly destroy whatever you are targeting. Still very powerful against the rest of your opponent's army, so not a waste if you kills his MCs or his list doesn't have any.

 

6 - Culexus Assassin -- Not any good against Imperial Knights since they are vehicles, but against any MCs, this guy can Infilitrate in, use his Etherium to stay alive, and then turn 2 charge the selected target... since all his attacks ignore armor and his 6+s to wound have ID, he can surprisingly "one shot" dangerous MCs like Riptides.

 

7 - Grav Guns -- These are taylor-made to bring down the targets you talk about in the OP. Whether on Command Squads, Combi-weapons with Sternguard, Bikers, or (the best) Centurions, they absolutely devastate any and all MCs outside of Daemon MCs that have an Invul but no regular armor. Even against Imperial Knights, you can knock off multiple HPs a turn with Centurions using the Grav Cannons/Amps, especially if they have Presience on them.

[ShinyRhino]

All good suggestions, everyone. Thanks!

[Sheesh Mode]

I am making a tourney-ready chaos list which will face a number of Knights from various armies and am confident that I can destroy knights with ease thanks to the steady application of heavy weaponry. 

 

An army that can fire:

3 S10 AP1, Large Blasts, (24/48")

6 S7 AP4, Rending, Twinlinked (48")

4 S9 AP2 (48")

2 S7 AP4 (48")

2 S8 AP3, Pinning, Ignores Cover, small blast (48")

1 S10 AP2, Ignores Cover (72")

 

At a knight will likely destroy it. The invulnerable shield is largely irrelevant when long ranged weapons are firing from different angles. This concept also applies to melta-command squads because it not only places meltas right next to the aberrant super-heavy, but also opens up the possibility of allowing other weaponry to shoot him while exposed, when before he would not be. 

[Axagoras]

well if you mean balanced as in casual or fluffy then your in for some trouble, but if you mean balanced as in can handle all threats well my 1850 packs a bunch of melta, a melta command squad, and some orbitals. Also never discount a tfc or 2 for killing weakened knights, so far my tfcs have killed 2 knights and a riptide :P

[Kaedes Nex]

Let me preface this post by saying that I like to run "balanced" lists with a mix of different units and armaments. I don't do things like 5-man Command Squads in drop pods, all armed with the same weapon. It's just not my thing.

 

The core of my question is this: can a balanced list that uses a variety of units reliably beat three armies that contain Knights, Riptides, or Wraithknights in a single day, without tailoring between games?

 

You sort of need the matching guns to beat strong units like Knights and WKs. If you bring a mix of weapons, that Flamer and Plasma Gun won't do anything to AV13/14. But 4-5 Melta Guns sure will. Devastators too, are best when used with 4 matching heavy weapons.

 

You can have unit variety, but wargear must be optimized if you want any hope of beating skewed min/max lists. They are already maxing out their best units and best wargear. You, who are dabbling in the jack of all trades, MUST be able to do all your jobs competently if you are trying to take down a master of one. Mixing your wargear makes you a jack of nothing. A single special weapon is worthless in the face of actual threats.

 

This game is all about redundancy and consistency.

[KurganFr]

Being jack of all trades does not mean that every unit in C:SM should be able to handle itself decently against any threat. It means that we have a specialised unit to handle any threat. Knowing you are likely to face Riptides etc., do not be afraid of making the most of your weapon and wargear options. There's no point having one missile launcher in your tactical squad to help against a Riptide: make your tactical squad anti-infantry and take a devastator squad or a drop-podded Command/Sternguard squad with melta to handle the big stuff, or better still, take two.

 

 

This game is all about redundancy and consistency.

 

 

Indeed.

[GreyCrow]

To me a balanced list is one that has answers for all threats. Sometimes the answer may be to ignore the threat and kill all troops, but at least you have a plan. Sometimes that answer is 5 Dominions with melta guns in a Rerpressor. I give my tank hunters the tools they need to hunt tanks. I give my horde shredders the tools they need to shred hordes. I want my units focused on their roles and reliant on each other for a balanced army. I feel that trying to do it all weakens a units ability to do anything and raises the costs prohibitively.

 

In short, don't discount a drop pod of special weapons because you see some people spam them. One is probably enough, anyway. Then support those special weapons with units that can get into close combat, shoot down flyers or add fire support at range.

 

This, so much this !

 

There is so much a Riptide, a Knight, a Wraightknight or a Flying Hive Tyrant with Twin Linked Devourers can do. The opponent knows they are survivable and expects us to "waste" shots at them. Like Jacinda said, the best tactics I found is to use our support elements to strengthen our main advance while trying to hamper the enemy's ability to do so to us. I found that going against the enemy Troops or weaker units first brought more success than trying to kill its most resistant pieces. For instance, it took me 3 turns of shooting to kill a Wraightknight, but not my entire army was firing at it each turn and I didn't fire on it in the first turn. I felt it was preferable to deal with the troops and the transports first and let the Wraightknight do his job. It did kill a Rhino, a Landspeeder, 7 MEQ and a Librarian during the whole game, but I most likely had won by Turn 2 because I dealt crippling blows to so much of the rest of his force that he couldn't come back from that.

 

It's much better to spend entire turns with the entire army focused on one specific goal (which should be to give an early lead) rather than trying to kill everything, playing on our lists' strength and the enemy's weaknesses.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Let me preface this post by saying that I like to run "balanced" lists with a mix of different units and armaments. I don't do things like 5-man Command Squads in drop pods, all armed with the same weapon. It's just not my thing.

That being said, how does a balanced Space Marine army defeat Imperial Knights, Riptides, and Wraithknights in multiple, all on the same day?

 

You see, my FLGS runs rampant with lists/armies that run one to three Imperial Knights, double Riptides backed up by a sea of Broadsides and Suits (all with drones), and Eldar with one or two Wraithknights backed up by MSU jetbikes and Serpents.

 

I'll freely admit that I've fallen behind the times when it comes to units. I don't have Centurions, masses of grav guns, flyers, etc. I certainly CAN acquire all those things and field them, I just haven't done so yet.

 

The core of my question is this: can a balanced list that uses a variety of units reliably beat three armies that contain Knights, Riptides, or Wraithknights in a single day, without tailoring between games?

 

Your style of balanced list doesn't focus on offensive firepower. Because of this, your answer to "how do I kill X" will never have an answer. The solution is to win the game without having to kill that unit. You can avoid it, tarpit it, outplay the opponent, outroll the opponent, bet on one-shot gambles like Melta or Instant Death, etc. You don't always have to kill the unit to win the game, even in Kill Point missions.

 

Because killing large threats like the units you listed can make winning the game drastically easier and less stressful, most balanced players tend to include units you mentioned, like a small unit of Grav Centurions, or a special weapon command squad. This gives a small, powerful unit that can potentially handle those threats without using up all your points or skewing your list into an unbalanced one, unlike deathstars or spam.

[ShinyRhino]

Those are very good points. I think units like I was describing became unpalatable once I saw people abusing allies and CAD construction in order to field multiples of those units. An overreaction on my part.

[GreyCrow]

Those are very good points. I think units like I was describing became unpalatable once I saw people abusing allies and CAD construction in order to field multiples of those units. An overreaction on my part.

 

One thing to note is that many units in other Codexes (mainly xenos) look very scary because these armies are designed to go for the tabling or lose the game by failing to do so. And generally, the tabling is done by a cumulative effort from low points Troops with high fire saturation and very points efficient Elite/Heavy Support choices. But compared to Marines, most of these units are "glass" cannons, as in they can really be destroyed or neutered. They have high burst damage but low resilience, while we have low burst damage and high resilience. Over the course of the game, their total damage inflicted will be lower because we can kill or silence them with better effectiveness than they can do to us :)

 

In the Marines Codex, we aren't really designed to table, except in the assault phase and even then it's not even a sure bet. What we have is survivability and tenaciousness in our base stat line, regardless of what people say. Our worst save is 4+ after all ! :D

So, playing to this strength and trying to have our units survive the longest possible so that over the course of the battle, they can inflict the most damage rather than going for "make it or break it" maneuvers until we have no remaining choice :D

 

Also, because we have such low burst damage, focusing fire between units is of utmost importance (and that's kind of the basis of modern military strategy when surgical bombing doesn't work, throw 3 times more bodies than the enemy is supposed to have). There are few infantry squad that will go uncrippled by a conjoined assault from a Devastator squad and 2 Tactical Squads, even at the 24" range.