Defilers: A discussion and Analysis

[maverike_prime]

Okay, so I'm doing a bit of a theoretical deep dive and examination of several of the "worthless" or 'not usable' units in the Chaos Space Marine Codexes. In this post I'm going to post my take and analysis of the unit in question, and then I'd like feed on the unit and my analysis. I’ve already begun threads of the same type that deal with the Thousand Sons, Khorne Berzerkers, HelBrutes and Forgefiends. This thread I want to look at the Defiler.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/3/3c/Defiler_of_Khorne2.jpg

So the Defiler. The Crab walker. The First original Chaos tank.... walker....dread.... thing. So short version, you get 4 legs, 2 power fists and 3 guns, one of them a battle cannon which is always a nice little bonus.
For 195 points you get a 4 HP AV 12-12-10 walker that is WS/BS3 S8 and 3 attacks. It counts as a daemon, so it gets a 5+ invulnerable, it gets Fleet, it Will not Die and Daemonforge. Stock it comes with a rather impressive impressive list of guns and toys including a Battle Cannon, Reaper Autocannon, a Twin-linked Heavy Flamer, Two power fists, Daemonic Possession, search light and smoke launchers. Okay, nice little load out. Since it's a walker it can fire all of it's weapons at full BS. So boom a squad with the battle cannon, then shred 'em with the Reaper Autocannon shots and then charge them to beat them to death with your two power fists.

The Defiler doesn't have a lot of options but it does have some good ones. First it can replace its Heavy Flamer with a Havoc launcher. A respectable weapon all told with a 48" range, S5 ap5 Blast Twin-linked weapon. Okay, nothing really earth shattering but for 5 points? Not a bad option all told.

The second replacement option for the Heavy flamer is with a power scourge. You know that arm thing with the 6 whips and flails on it? The thing was once a Dreadnought close combat weapon, and then was the "living Vehicle upgrade"? Yeah now it's a power scourge. Which means that It is a S8 AP2 weapon that causes all models in base contact to loose D3 from their WS. Okay, that is note worthy. Hey Mr. Wraith Lord! I’m gonna come charge you! Oh lookie you’re WS 2 now. So I hit you on 3+ while you hit me on 4+. Now this option is a bit steeper in price coming in at 25 points.

The Reaper Autocannon have 3 options for replacing it. The first is a free replacement with a power fist. Okay, 3 power fists. Nice. The 2nd option is a Twin-linked Heavy Bolter. This seems a bit meh all told. The Reaper Auto-cannon is already twin-linked and S7 AP4. The Heavy Bolters are the same range and same AP value with S5. The only real advantage the Heavy Bolters give is being heavy 3 compared to the reapers heavy 2. So 3 twin-linked shots at S5 AP4 or 2 shots twin-linked shots at S7 ap4. I'll be honest if I had to pay for the upgrade, even it was as little as 2 points I would ignore it out right. But since it's free... eh it's harmless enough. Which yeah, I know how that sounds. I guess if you need to rely on sheer volume of fire the Heavy bolters are needed.

The final option to replace the reaper autocannons is with a twin-linked Lascannon for 20 points. Well, it's a twin-linked lascannon. What else is there to say? Need some ranged armor punch, here's the option. It is 20 points though.

The Defiler does have access to the Chaos Vehicle equipment list. I'll be honest, of all the options available to the Defiler, I feel like this is where the Defiler really gets made better or worse. 5 Point combi-bolter? Okay extra gun is never a bad thing. Add 5 points for a one-shot melta gun to that bolter? Okay worth it I'd say. Warp Flame Gargoyales... well they give you soul blaze to all your weapons.It can take a Havoc launcher for 12 points. Bit of an odd price point, but okay. This DOES appear to be in addition to the Havoc launcher it can replace it's heavy flamer with. It can take extra armor... but why would you? It already has daemonic possession, so it ignores crew shaken and stunned on a 2+. 10 points for that extra little garuntee... eh play it by ear based on your list.

So some ideas for the defiler:
Pounda-filer: 3 power fists, Power Scourge with Dirge Casters and Warp Flame gargoyles. 6 attacks on the charge, S10 attacks that shuts down a units ability to over watch it. Everything in base to base with it looses D3 WS. And every wound it lands has a chance to set the target unit on fire. Yeah That's gonna hurt when it hits your line. Oh and it still comes with a battle cannon. Comes in at 230 points

Dakka-filer: Give it 2 Havoc launchers, a Combi-weapon, a Combi-bolter, Warp Flame Gargoyles. Okay, so you're going to be putting out 1 S8 AP3 large blast, 2 S7 Ap4 Twin-linked shots, 2 twin-linked S5 AP5 blasts, plus 2 more S4 ap5 shots, and all of these shots will have the chance to cause soul blaze on the target unit. This configuration comes in at 232 points. Oh and you've still 4 attacks on the charge or 3 flat footed that are S10 AP2.

N'ked Filer: Well, it's a defiler with no extra options. So you'll get the Battle cannon shot, the Reaper autocannon shots, and the Heavy flamer shots along with the two power fists. It comes in at 195 points.

So... the defiler. Why don't we see it more? Well I'm sure people are going to disagree with me for what I'm about to say but I'm going to say it anyway. It's an over costed, unfocused mess. I honestly feel that for its abilities and what it comes with, it should be about 20 points cheaper. It would still be expensive, but I feel that a reduction by about 20 points would make the Defiler much more appealing and manageable addition to an army list. As it stands now, when naked it's kind of a beefier dreadno... sorry, helbrute with out the crazies... at close to 2x the price but with out the benefits of the data slate the Helbrute got. Start kitting it out for a paticular battle field role, and you're getting up into the cost prohibitive ranges. Want maximum fire saturation abilities? Gonna run 232 points. Want a super-pounder? Gonna be about the same. At that price point I'm honestly looking at Terminator for volume of attacks and number of wounds they would bring to the field for the same or less cost in points. Or Havocs for the fire power angle.

So what are your thoughts on the Defiler?

[Dragonlover]

I agree with your conclusion, and run mine as Soul Grinders now.

 

Dragonlover

[Xenith]

You cant fire the havocs if you fire the battle cannon. Ordnance rules.

 

Heavy flamer is great for wall of fire, but I'd swap everything for fists, fire the cannon on the move and get into combat.

 

It's big, and will probably die to krak grenades. Needs to be AV13 for that price.

 

I think it's worth 145 at the moment. Maybe less, when you can get a vengeance platform with cannon for ~75pts? And thats AV14

[maverike_prime]

You cant fire the havocs if you fire the battle cannon. Ordnance rules.

 

Heavy flamer is great for wall of fire, but I'd swap everything for fists, fire the cannon on the move and get into combat.

 

It's big, and will probably die to krak grenades. Needs to be AV13 for that price.

 

I think it's worth 145 at the moment. Maybe less, when you can get a vengeance platform with cannon for ~75pts? And thats AV14

Vengeance platform?

 

actually I'm re-reading the ordnance weapon rule now. it states:

 

"When shooting, a model with an Ordnance weapon fires the number of times indicated in its profile after its type. A nonvehicle model carrying an Ordnance weapon cannot fire it in the shooting phase if he moved in the preceding Movement phase. Ordnance weapons fire Snap Shots. Furthermore, if a non-vehicle model fires and Ordnance weapon, then the massive recoil from the Ordnance weapons means that the model cannot fire other weapons that phase, nor will it be able to charge in the ensuing Assault phase."

 

So... since the Defiler is actually a vehicle it can fire the Battle cannon and still fire other weapons. And since it is a Walker type vehicle, it can fire all of its weapons at it's normal BS.

 

My bad, there's another rule regarding Vehicles and Ordnance that when an Ordnance weapon is fired, everything else on the vehicle can only make snap fire shots.

[Kevlarshark]

I often run 2x defilers, usually just plain but sometimes with dirge casters. I have found them fairly resilient and they deal out a lot of long ranged damage. They are the only unit in the codex with a +48 range weapon. I tend to look at them as oddly armed leman russes with bonus close combat ability. I find them generally more useful than similar points of oblits or havocs.

 

I do agree they are not awesome though, merely quite useful.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I think the defiler is just not properly priced for me to take it on a regular basis. Whenever a vehicle is pushing 200/250pts which the defiler is after upgrades, it really has to bring a lot of firepower to be worth taking-and all the defiler brings is basically a battlecannon, since any other ranged weapon on the defiler is near useless. Sure, it's probably one of the best walkers around for assaulting with 4-5 attacks making it actually decent, but with av12 it's gonna die to meltas or kraks easy, just can't justify the cost. 

[maverike_prime]

I'm sure people with disagree with me on this, but the point of these threads is to promote discussion. Personally, what I would suggest for the Defiler would actually be a complete and total rework of it from the ground up. I don't have a... huge problem with it pushing the 200 point line, but as Lord Asvaklir said it had better be bringing something serious and major to the list for that.

 

Just off the top of my head here is what I can toss on the board:

 

Defiler................ 130 points

WS-3 BS-3 S-8 FA-12 SA-12 RA-10 I-3 A-3 HP- 4

 

Unit type: Vehicle(Walker)
Wargear: Twin-linked Ecto-Plasma Cannon Turret Mounted
Twin-linked Heavy Flamer
Reaper AutoCannon
Daemonic Possession
Smoke Launchers

Special Rules:

Daemon
DaemonForge
Fleet
It will Not Die

Options:

May take up to 2 Power fists................... 10pts each
 

May replace the Heavy Flammer with one of the following:

Havoc Launcher.......................... 5 pts
An additional Power fist............... 10 points

may replace the Reaper Autocannons with one of the following:
Twin-linked Heavy bolter............... Free
Twin-linked Lascannon................. 20 points
Power Scourge............................. 25 points

May replace Twin-linked Ecto-Plasma Cannon with one of the following:
Twin-linked Hades Auto-Cannon............ 15 points
Battle Cannon........................................ 10 points

May Take Reinforced armor for 20 points (upgrades armor plating by 1 on each facing)


Like I said, just off the top of my head. No mathing yet, just idea typed out. My thinking is that the Defiler should be able to out Close-combat a Mauler fiend, and it should be able to out-shoot a Forge Fiend, but not at the same time. it needs to be kitted out to do one role or the other. By removing the auto-included power fists and replacing the Battle cannon with an option to take the Hadas guns, it gives it better Close combat ability with out locking it into that option.

[Chaeron]

I've always loved the model, and fondly remember when they were released. I confess I've not found as much use for them in recent years, and so this thread will hopefully spark that imagination. Visually, to me, they're the archetypal Chaos war machine - and anything in that mould or Dark Mechanicus-esque styling works in their favour.

 

I actually need to repaint my two (and Soul Grinder) - probably vow them for the next ETL. I do remember the Battlecannon was a huge selling point when they first came out, as it was like having a Leman Russ for Chaos! I think as options have become more varied, it's made them harder to fit in. And mind you, that was the sort of era where they were competing with Vindicators and Basilisks in Iron Warriors armies right?

 

I think perhaps with larger games, there's more scope to include them as another distraction - I wouldn't discount the damage that they can put out, but I think they'd often struggle to match their cost as you've alluded to compared to other options. Now, a Formation or Dataslate for Defilers, like with Helbrutes, could be something fantastic in future...

[Lord Asvaldir]

I'm sure people with disagree with me on this, but the point of these threads is to promote discussion. 

 

Ya of course I'm all for that, positive contribution towards seeing how to use rarely used models is a good thing to discuss, I just have trouble really seeing a good use for the defiler given its cost. Resigned defiler looks pretty good though.

 

I will say though one use the defiler has it in a more long range oriented CSM list, as it's one of our view +48" units. Use him alongside units like rapier destroyers with conversion beamers, and he can defend them against any threats that try to assault the rapiers..  

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

I run mine with scourge + twin linked lascannon he actually does alright

[WarriorFish]

I'd like to take a Defiler eventually because I think they're pretty cool, would it be best to keep it bare bones? I'm planning on running a Marine heavy Slaanesh list so some clobbering power sounds good but I'd also like to add Terminators so would I be better off just going with them instead?

[maverike_prime]

I'd like to take a Defiler eventually because I think they're pretty cool, would it be best to keep it bare bones? I'm planning on running a Marine heavy Slaanesh list so some clobbering power sounds good but I'd also like to add Terminators so would I be better off just going with them instead?

 

one of the major issues with the Defiler is that even stark raving naked it's 195 points. And for that 195 points it is 'ok'. Not great, but just 'ok'. Some good fire power options, but as others have pointed out you need to be selective about how you use that fire power. Shoot the Battle Cannon and it's basically pointless to even have other guns on the beast. There really isn't anything the defiler can do that another unit can't do better, save for using a battle cannon. And for 195 points, that's a rather expensive battle cannon.

[Chaeron]

I'd like to take a Defiler eventually because I think they're pretty cool, would it be best to keep it bare bones? I'm planning on running a Marine heavy Slaanesh list so some clobbering power sounds good but I'd also like to add Terminators so would I be better off just going with them instead?

 

I would definitely think bare bones is the way to go. Upgrades just make it too delicious a target, and it doesn't have the best armour in the world sadly. Terminators do fulfill a more alternatively function - so it does depend on the rest of your list.

 

Now, something that would enable it to fire at multiple targets in future would definitely make it more appealing.

[WarriorFish]

I think I'll get some Termies instead then, maybe my love of walkers and vehicles will attract me to one eventually but for now I may as well stick to the theme.

[Lucio]

One thing that's bugged me with the Ordanance rules is that it reads as if as long as you chose to shoot your other weapons first, then it doesn't cause an issue anyway. So for example, you can shoot a Havoc launcher at a unit, then follow up with the battlecannon

[Aspiringchaoschampion]

Generally I don't find it to be too bad a lot of people ignore it and that is generally the biggest mistake you can make when facing one

[Zhukov]

One thing that's bugged me with the Ordanance rules is that it reads as if as long as you chose to shoot your other weapons first, then it doesn't cause an issue anyway. So for example, you can shoot a Havoc launcher at a unit, then follow up with the battlecannon

That rule is arguably not completely foolproof written, but still: "However, a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can only make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn."

 

Note "its other weapons" and "that turn". If you shoot with Ordnance, while you already shot with other weapons (while not snap shotting) then you still create a situation in which you broke the above rule. I don't think the time frame matters here basicly, the more because of this: Even though you can roll the dice for different weapons one after the other, all the shooting still happens all at the same time! This is also the reason you can't kill a transport with a weapon and then fire at the occupants with another weapon with just 1 unit/model.

[Schurge]

For me personally, the reason I don't bring Defilers is I absolutely loathe the model... looks to much like that baby doll head glued to an arachnid robo-body like that thing from Toy Story. That said, I have used it once... I bought a conversion that makes it look like a miniature Brass Scorpion off of E-Bay. It wasn't very useful at the time but I realize now it was because I was using it wrong... thought it only had two weapons, one gun and one melee. Regardless, it lacks synergy with what I usually bring (exclusively assault focused lists), I think I will try it out again at the next "tournament" in the area... random doubles... 500 points per player for a total of 1000 points per side. Since you don't know who your team mate will be I don't see many people bringing much strength-8 or better to deal with AV 12.

[Zeratil]

 

One thing that's bugged me with the Ordanance rules is that it reads as if as long as you chose to shoot your other weapons first, then it doesn't cause an issue anyway. So for example, you can shoot a Havoc launcher at a unit, then follow up with the battlecannon

That rule is arguably not completely foolproof written, but still: "However, a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can only make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn."

 

Note "its other weapons" and "that turn". If you shoot with Ordnance, while you already shot with other weapons (while not snap shotting) then you still create a situation in which you broke the above rule. I don't think the time frame matters here basicly, the more because of this: Even though you can roll the dice for different weapons one after the other, all the shooting still happens all at the same time! This is also the reason you can't kill a transport with a weapon and then fire at the occupants with another weapon with just 1 unit/model.

 

 

 

  I don't have my rulebook to hand, but don't you declare all weapons that will fire and their targets at the same time, and then resolve the shooting itself in any order you choose? Therefore if you declare you're firing your ordnance weapon then everything else will snap shot, it doesn't matter what order you then resolve the shooting in.

 

 

  As for the defiler itself I think it's already been fixed in the form of a soul grinder. The soul grinder actually succeeds in being a 'jack of all trades' for a decent price, which is what the defiler tries to be and fails. If I was going to run a defiler I would probably run it as cheap as possible and take more than one, advancing up the field and firing battlecannons demanding that the enemy do something about me. Of course with only AV12 that just won't take as long as I would like

[Lord Asvaldir]

I'd like to take a Defiler eventually because I think they're pretty cool, would it be best to keep it bare bones? I'm planning on running a Marine heavy Slaanesh list so some clobbering power sounds good but I'd also like to add Terminators so would I be better off just going with them instead?

 

I could actually see a defiler working well with a blast master heavy noise marine list. More long range firepower to augment those blast masters, and a big threat for anything that tries to assault your line. 

[Sception]

Love the defiler. Love it's old fluff as a machine specifically commissioned by the Black Legion, tailored to the Warmaster's preferred means of fighting staggered campaigns, supporting the forward assault during aggressive periods, then serving as defensive artillery while consolidating gains. Love the model, too.

 

Rules, though? It's just... meh. Meh to sub meh. Costs too much for its firepower & durability, & too many of its abilities are at odds with each other (long range on the battle cannon combined with melee ability and fleet?) to really work in the context of the wargame.

 

I don't see much fix for it apart from proxy as the more coherent, more durable, less points-inefficient soul grinder.

[Xenith]

 

Vengeance platform?

 

 

 

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Wall-of-Martyrs-Vengeance-Weapon-Battery;jsessionid=3DA48B49EC7B463A761A85F0B128A2A6?_requestid=360665

 

75Pts for a BS2 AV14 all round battlecannon.

 

It always shoots the nearest target, admittedly, but it's a massive AV14 LOS blocker.

[Zhukov]

 

 

One thing that's bugged me with the Ordanance rules is that it reads as if as long as you chose to shoot your other weapons first, then it doesn't cause an issue anyway. So for example, you can shoot a Havoc launcher at a unit, then follow up with the battlecannon

That rule is arguably not completely foolproof written, but still: "However, a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can only make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn."

 

Note "its other weapons" and "that turn". If you shoot with Ordnance, while you already shot with other weapons (while not snap shotting) then you still create a situation in which you broke the above rule. I don't think the time frame matters here basicly, the more because of this: Even though you can roll the dice for different weapons one after the other, all the shooting still happens all at the same time! This is also the reason you can't kill a transport with a weapon and then fire at the occupants with another weapon with just 1 unit/model.

 

 

 

  I don't have my rulebook to hand, but don't you declare all weapons that will fire and their targets at the same time, and then resolve the shooting itself in any order you choose? Therefore if you declare you're firing your ordnance weapon then everything else will snap shot, it doesn't matter what order you then resolve the shooting in.

No, that's what I thought too, but rules don't really support this, at least not what I found. Hence the need for a different argumentation ^^

[Lucio]

No, that's what I thought too, but rules don't really support this, at least not what I found. Hence the need for a different argumentation ^^

See, the Shooting Phase sequence states

 

"First, select a weapon that one or more models in your unit are equipped with...." (p30 DV rulebook)

 

later it says

 

"If a model can shoot with more than one weapon in the same phase and it's equipped with two or more identically named weapons, it shoots all the same weapons when that weapon is selected"

 

So, given it is explictially called out that you have to shoot certain weapons at the same time, it implies that those not meeting the case don't have to be. Furthermore, since you're shooting a weapon at a time, and resolving those in turn, then order could potentially play a part.

 

It is definitely wooly though, because one rule implies that order matters (in as much you resolve them one a time), and the other is explict in saying "if you do this, you also get this penalty"

[Zeratil]

 

No, that's what I thought too, but rules don't really support this, at least not what I found. Hence the need for a different argumentation ^^

See, the Shooting Phase sequence states

 

"First, select a weapon that one or more models in your unit are equipped with...." (p30 DV rulebook)

 

later it says

 

"If a model can shoot with more than one weapon in the same phase and it's equipped with two or more identically named weapons, it shoots all the same weapons when that weapon is selected"

 

So, given it is explictially called out that you have to shoot certain weapons at the same time, it implies that those not meeting the case don't have to be. Furthermore, since you're shooting a weapon at a time, and resolving those in turn, then order could potentially play a part.

 

It is definitely wooly though, because one rule implies that order matters (in as much you resolve them one a time), and the other is explict in saying "if you do this, you also get this penalty"

 

 

 

Interesting, that's what you get for playing so many editions. Is there then actually a prohibition on shooting units that have disembarked from a transport you just shot then? As for the snap shotting thing I think the by shooting a different weapon at full BS you've invalidated firing the ordnance weapon, as you've violated the stricture on other weapons snap shotting. It is misleadingly worded on GW's part though, and could be interpreted a number of ways