Formation and Command Squads

[DarkAngeal]

I have a question about if you can take a command squad for an hq that is in a formation. The codex rules in this case say "for each HQ choice in your army you may include a Command Squad. These selections don't use up a Force Organization slot"

 

So it seems like each hq in a formation would allow you to take 1 more command squad. I think this is right for 2 reasons.

1: it says each hq in your ARMY not detachment

2: it doesn't take a force Org slot, so it doesn't break the roster anyhow.

 

But I would love it if you could give me your feedback. Am I getting this right?

[Demus Ragnok]

Which codex are you referring to?

 

I'm not certain but my thought is that a formation is a "take these unit get these benefits" situation. Now if you add anything that is not listed in the detachment roster you are no longer taking the detachment.

 

What makes me think that way is that in the new BA codex command squads are no longer a a "doesn't take a slot" selection. Is that precedent? I'm not sure.

[DarkAngeal]

I'm using the Dark Angels codex, and thinking of their formation, "Librarius Conclave" which allows them to take 3-5 librarians as a formation. Since each librarian is an hq choice, I thought it might allow command squads since there are now 3-5 hq in your army

[DarkAngeal]

"Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a formation"

Pg.121

so the librarians are hq, they are in my army, and so they should each get a command slot open

[shandwen]

The big problem is that when it was published there was no foc, and I believe no formations.

If it isnt already in the faq it will be soon... hopefully.

[DarkAngeal]

There was definitely a FoC. Dark angels was the first codex of 6th edition. That means that it was written with allies, formations, and the FOC in mind.

 

Plus with librarians being definably hq, and 1 being allowed for each hq in the army that it should be fine.

[Demus Ragnok]

If you are playing a battle forged army does the Librarius formation fullfill the mandatory HQ for a CAD?

[DarkAngeal]

"Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a formation"

Pg.121

so the librarians are hq, they are in my army, and so they should each get a command slot open

[Demus Ragnok]

But the librarians are in the Librarius formation not a CAD.

[DarkAngeal]

Yes, what I am quoting there is from the base rule book saying that even when they are in a formation they still have the same battlefield role: hq.

[Kristoff]

If you are playing a battle forged army does the Librarius formation fullfill the mandatory HQ for a CAD?

No. Units can only be part of one Detachment. This doesn't count Formations and Detachments made up of other Formations which specifically include Formations like Strike Force Ultra or the Necron Decurion.

 

Back to the OP, that's a good question. I would say, yes, provided they fit the proper rules, of course. In a way, it is kind of like the Dedicated Transport, but in reverse.

[Demus Ragnok]

 

If you are playing a battle forged army does the Librarius formation fullfill the mandatory HQ for a CAD?

No. Units can only be part of one Detachment. This doesn't count Formations and Detachments made up of other Formations which specifically include Formations like Strike Force Ultra or the Necron Decurion.

Back to the OP, that's a good question. I would say, yes, provided they fit the proper rules, of course. In a way, it is kind of like the Dedicated Transport, but in reverse.

That's what I thought.

[ShinyRhino]

No. The Librarius formation tells you exactly what is in that detachment...Librarians. Nothing else. If you try to add anything else, you've deviated from the rules of the formation.

Formations are very specific in what units are part of them, and you can't add or remove any and all legally run that formation.

 

For example, the Saint Tylus Battle Force formation from the Tyrannic War Vets data slate is made up of Chaplain Cassius, 1+ Tyrannic War Vets squads, and 0-6 Stormtalons. No command squad is listed, so you cannot take one for Cassius. You can take one as part of a CAD in the same army, but only if the CADs compulsory HQ allows it. If you take a Master of the Forge to lead that CAD, no command squad.

[Quixus]

The way I see it is that it is unclear what happens. One reading is that if the units in a formation can unlock additional units but the army immediately becomes unbound.

If the Army List Entry states that it can be included in an army that includes another specified unit, and that it does not take up a Force Organisation slot, it must join the same Detachment as that specified unit.

A Formation says which units it contains, nothing more, nothing less. The codices tells us that certain units enable the purchasing of other units. Those units however cannot be part of a formation unless mentioned in the rules for the formation. If you have units that are not in any detachment the army is unbound.

 

The other option would be that such enabled units are also part of the formation just as additional wargear is (e.g. CMLs on the WGTDA of Arjac's Shieldbrothers). Which of course would also mean that they benefit from the formation's special rules unless they are limited to certain units or models in the formation.

 

The third option (no enabled units, no matter the type of army) isn't really an option, because codex trumps rulebook.

 

GW should really release a clarification on both points.

[Kristoff]

Well, the codex says per army...

 

Now, to my reading Dedicated Transports are allowed because they are purchased as part of the unit purchase and an option of that unit (unless specifically restricted). But Command Squads are a different story, as they get permission after the fact as opposed to part of the purchased unit.

 

In this case, Librarians do not have permission to purchase a Command Squad as part of their options. But Command Squads can be purchased slotless when a Librarian is purchased.

 

The real question boils down to, "Are we allowed to purchase a unit not referenced in the Formation List nor in any of the Formation's Unit Datasheets?"

 

If yes, then can the Reclusiam Command Squad take two Command Squads and three Razorbacks, one for the two required, and then one that can be purchased as part of the units? I'll have to look this one up, it's been a while.

[ShinyRhino]

The real question boils down to, "Are we allowed to purchase a unit not referenced in the Formation List nor in any of the Formation's Unit Datasheets?"

 

 

The full text of the Formations rule, per the BRB:

 

Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units

renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium.

Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will

need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to

describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific

units together. Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List

Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules

that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains

its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation.

Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound

armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part

of the Formation.[/quote]

 

Like Quixus said, you CAN take a Command Squad, but doing so without taking a non-formation HQ immediately makes the whole army Unbound. The Librarians in the OPs example would retain their command benefits form the formation, but every other unit (those command squads) loses any and all command benefits, and doesn't benefit from the formation rules.

[Kristoff]

The full text of the Formations rule, per the BRB:

 

 

Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium.

 

Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together. Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation. Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation.

Like Quixus said, you CAN take a Command Squad, but doing so without taking a non-formation HQ immediately makes the whole army Unbound. The Librarians in the OPs example would retain their command benefits form the formation, but every other unit (those command squads) loses any and all command benefits, and doesn't benefit from the formation rules.

Okay, that quote does absolutely nothing to answer this question. It does not state anything about if that Command Squad would make the army Unbound or not, nor does it answer the question on if that Command Squad would be part of the same Detachment as the HQ it is purchased for.

 

However, earlier in that section we have:

If the Army List Entry states that it can be included in an army that includes another specified unit, and that it does not take up a Force Organisation slot, it must join the same Detachment as that specified unit. In either case, these units are part of the Detachment for all rules purposes and will gain any appropriate Command Benefits.

Formations are detachments, so the answer would technically be yes, unless otherwise stipulated in the restrictions.

[Quixus]

Formations are detachments, so the answer would technically be yes, unless otherwise stipulated in the restrictions.

Actually that rule combined with the one you quoted makes it clear how it works, there need not be a separate restriction in the restriction section of a formation data sheet. Let me walk you through it:

- A formation is a detachment.

- a formation contains a specific grouping of units. It does not consist of a specific grouping of units plus whatever other units might be enabled by the units contained therein.

- certain units (which may be in a formation) enable the purchase of other units.

- These units must be in the detachment that enabled them.

- They can't be in the formation because the formation limits the units contained to a specific grouping

- Now you have a formation plus one or more units that are not in any detachment. That is an unbound army.

 

 

Side note: battlefield role=/=FOC slot. Even units in unbound armies have battle field roles the do not have a FOC slot assigned to them. The Battlefield role is for determining whether certain objectives are completed (like when only the HS choices among the destroyed units grant victory points)

[Kristoff]

- a formation contains a specific grouping of units. It does not consist of a specific grouping of units plus whatever other units might be enabled by the units contained therein.

And where is that general restriction listed?

[Ming]

This discussion seems to hitting a barrier...my understanding of the overall issue, is that in the OP, the special DA formation, could not add in a command squad.  Overall that is not a big deal, IMHO, as the player will have to have some other detachment to fill out their army list (unless its a really small game).  So, the HQ in that detachment (such as the ubiquitous CAD) is where the command squad would be placed.  In summary, I'm in the camp that formations can only be constructed with what is on the sheet.  Formations are special forms of detachments, and being special has its own meaning. 

 

Now, another thing I was seeing referred to was "purchasing" dedicated transports for a HQ character.  In the BA and SM codexes, none of the codex entries allow purchasing a dedicated transport for a HQ character.  The BA codex does seem, however, to allow "purchase" of vehicle transports individually, but they take up Force Org Slots when obtained that way. [like I would run a all-rhino unbound list...]

[Quixus]

And where is that general restriction listed?

You quoted it already, but here you go. I underlined the relevant parts:

Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together. Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation.

The command squad is not listed on the formation so it is not part of the formation.

 

@Ming: Why would you want to have a dedicated transport for your HQs? All our HQs that can ride in one of the dedicated transport choices are independent characters. So they can just join the unit the transport is dedicated to.

[Kristoff]

 

And where is that general restriction listed?

You quoted it already, but here you go. I underlined the relevant parts:

Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium. Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together. Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation.

The command squad is not listed on the formation so it is not part of the formation.

I see no exclusion of units that can be purchased after purchasing the initial units and whose purchase can/is reliant on the purchase of a Formation unit.

 

This goes back to Dedicated Transports, do you feel they are also restricted from purchase by units in a Formation?

 

@Ming: Why would you want to have a dedicated transport for your HQs? All our HQs that can ride in one of the dedicated transport choices are independent characters. So they can just join the unit the transport is dedicated to.

Not true. The Command Squads can take a Dedicated Transport, and is HQ in both Codex and Dark Angels (for now).

[Quixus]

I see no exclusion of units that can be purchased after purchasing the initial units and whose purchase can/is reliant on the purchase of a Formation unit.

Let's say a formation lists as the units it is comprised of as 1 A, 2 B. How can then unit C be part of the formation if it is not listed in the formation? A foramtion is a grouping of specific units. No matter how or why C is purchased it is not on the list so it is not part of the formation.

 

This goes back to Dedicated Transports, do you feel they are also restricted from purchase by units in a Formation?

Unless they are listed in the Formation a dedicated transport cannot be purchased as part of the formation. It is a separate unit no matter whether is occupies a FOC slot or not. If the transport is purchased for a unit from a formation, the army is unbound.

 

Side note: look at the Arjac's Shieldbrothers Formation. The Land Raider is listed as a unit of the formation and the restriction section makes clear that the Land Raider is the Hammernators' dedicated transport. Now compare that to the Void Claws Formation. It does not mention a Land Raider at all even though this formation also includes a unit of WGTDA that can purchase a Land Raider as dedicated transport.

 

Not true. The Command Squads can take a Dedicated Transport, and is HQ in both Codex and Dark Angels (for now).

Ming was talking about BA IMHO.

[ShinyRhino]

Of course you can purchase additional units on top of those in the formation, but they are not part of that formation, and do not benefit from the formation rules. Yu can take the Librarius Conclave consisting of three Librarians, and then three command squads to fill out the points level of your game. But that is an Unbound army. The rules for each formation say what units can be taken to acquire the rules of the formation, and which are mandatory, and the entries display the full options of each unit.

 

Going back to the Saint Tylus Battle Force formation from the Tyrannic vets dataslate: the formation consists of Cassius, 1+ TWV Squads, and 0-6 Stormtalon Gunships. The TWV entry in the formation tells you that the TWV squads CANNOT take drop pods as a dedicated transport when part of the formation, while the general entry for the TWV squad in the slate allows them to take pods or land raiders as a dedicated transport. It's proof that a formation consists ONLY of the units and options provided therein. As soon as you take a Drop Pod for a TWV squad, your army becomes Unbound. It can still contain a Formation + other units and be a legal formation and a legal army.

 

Example: You take Cassius, three TWV squads (two in land raiders, one in a pod), and two Stormtalons. Legal, Unbound army that consists of the TWV formation, and one unit of TWV (the ones in the pod) that are not part of the formation and that do not benefit from the formation's rules. 100% legal army, it's just Unbound.

 

What's making the Librarius Conclave stand out is that it's not as "complete" as other dataslates. Other dataslates (Strike Force Ultra, Tyrannic War Vets, Recliusiam Command Squad, Helbrutes, etc) all list full unit entries for the units in their formations. The TWV slate contains full rules for Cassius, and the SFU contains full rules for Lysander. Taking a command squad for Cassius isn't a formation option because there's no rules for it in the dataslate. Note that no HQ says "can take one command squad for each X in your army." That rule is part of the Command Squad entry, not part of the formation. You can legally run a TWV formation without owning the Space Marine codex at all. You can't do that with the Librarius Conclave, because it doesn't contain stats, points, etc. But that doesn't make the restrictions any less. To make the Librarius Conclave match every other published dataslate, you'd treat it like a codex that contains the Librarian entry and the Ezekiel entry from Codex: DA. As far the the formation rules are concerned, no other unit exists.

[DarkAngeal]

With all that in mind, could you take a librarius conclave formation AND a combined arms detachment with 1 hq, and run 3 command squads because there are 4hq selections in your entire army?