Deconstructing my Dark Angels: Re-booting for 7th changes

[Prot]

I did a massive post.

 

I broke down everything I thought was working, and stopped working for me in 7th thus far in my meta.

 

As you know I built a few lists recently that got smashed pretty hard by what I would call 'codex strong' opponents. No Knights, no broken, Blood Angel Drop Podding Centurion builds... just good, hard, codex strong lists.

 

My Campaign Game I felt very uneasy about taking my Dark Angels, so I unpacked some 750 pts of my Chaos, and got pounded with that instead! (Wow are psyker powers ever fickle.)

 

I ended up pulling out my 750 point Necron list and laid a nice beatdown on that Ork player as a rematch for fun. (No, I did not play the Decurion detachment... didn't need to, I've retired it in fact.) But that's another story.....

 

After writing that large post I decided to delete it.  I did this because it was a VERY long, detailed look at stuff I don't think anyone is really going to read....

 

So I looked at it and thought: What this all comes down to is looking, very honestly, at the Dark Angels codex and asking myself: What, in these pages, still works? How do I exploit it? Maybe exploit is too strong a word, let's call it... working an angle.

 

There are a few things that kind of work. A few things that have possibilities but I have to keep this short. In the end it's about seeing what still works and staying in your comfort zone. For me that's probably the Ravenwing....

 

When I think of what I'm seeing a lot of, and it's really effective is some form of Feel No Pain. In a squad, in an army. Call it reanimation protocols, call it Dark Eldar Drugs, a 'Lucky Stick'.... whatever. It's very strong.

 

I think the best was I can use this is to perhaps test it in these 750 point games, at least once. And see if I can make another run at it.

 

Right now I pulled out a truck load of bikes I've only primed, but not painted in over a year. I think I vomit a little in my mouth when I think of painting these things....

 

But for now I've based a list on a command biker squad and Fortitude Banner. So I'm painting up Sammael, (wow what a horrid model that is now that I'm actually looking at it.... Failcast is rather rough on this model.) At best I can make Sam look 'okay' but not stelllar... he's too rough.

 

The main thrust of my effort is towards something that's been ignored for way too long... bog standard Deathwing bikers. I started a 5 man squad.

 

The gist of the list is centred on these guys, and making sure I maximize that banner, while trying not to overcost myself to death. If it doesn't do well I can always go back to my necrons, but for now I feel this is the core of what I have to rebuild my Dark Angels upon. What do you guys think?

 

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think in the Maelstrom meta, RW stands the most chance because it has speed, ObSec and T5 on it's favour. If you can agment the survivability by FnP banner it will be even better. Their problem is the Long Range fire-power and ability to deal with flyers but fortunately there are allies and FW stuff.

[Ravenwing Jack]

Personaly, I love the ravenwing. I'm only fairly new back to the hobby, but I've found that Black Knights are my favourite unit. I've been running Green/Ravnwing lists at 500-1000 points,Basicly a Lib, a LC Pred, a LC/LC/PC/PC dev squad, 2 or 3 5 man tacs w/ ML in Rhinos for anti air, and the rest of the points on BK or RWAS.

 

this is at 1000 points, IMO cos theres less chance of people bringing flyers and tanks to 750 point games you could maybe drop the tank and the ML's and spend those points on more bikes? I use BK as a distraction unit/ High Priority target seekers, scout really helps these guys cos of the 18" range on the plasma talons. 

 

I really like the idea of an anti tank RWAS, in fact thats what I'm working on atm. Sgt w/ Combi Melta, 2x Melta, 3x normal RW, 1x MM ATK Bike, 1x MM/MM Land Speeder, works out at nearly 350 points but it'll kill tanks and terms. Good Luck with painting the bikes :) 

[SnakeChisler]

After 7th I made a few changes the addition of a left las to turn one of my dreads to a Mortis + the mere threat that I may field a couple of LOD squads and the balance returned the games were as good and close as they'd ever been.

 

There's still the thorny issue of cost though its like your always playing with 1500 points in a game where your opponent fields 1750 and your having to wring every last drop from your lists.

 

I know what you Mean about FNP though and invulnerable saves after kitting out a Legion squad with FNP and actually getting a save for a change with basically tactical Marines it made me realize how much the game has swung with so much ap 1/2/3 around

[Prot]

I think in the Maelstrom meta, RW stands the most chance because it has speed, ObSec and T5 on it's favour. If you can agment the survivability by FnP banner it will be even better. Their problem is the Long Range fire-power and ability to deal with flyers but fortunately there are allies and FW stuff.

 

I'm okay with lack of those two things specifically because 1) at 1,000 pts it's hard to 'abuse' air warfare. 2) From the long stint I did have with the RW I did pick up a few tricks. Scout / turbo early and frequently enough to get up into their face. It does leave less of a 'range advantage' and sometimes gets under their flyers.

 

I see model count being a huge issue. The Xenos can just farm so much junk.... It's one think when 10 models have feel no pain, it's another when 30 do.... I think the idea might be okay, but probably better executed at larger games.

 

I have to use an elite unit this week. If I stick out DA, I have decided it would be my DW Knights. They can come down turn one after a scout move from my RW HQ with Fortitude banner and of course all the bikes have beacons right? So I'm thinking this keeps everyone rolling FnP.

 

But even at 1K I have essentially 5 bikers + Sammy, a RW Cmd, a MM Attack Bike, and 5 scouts for objective grabbing. That's a mighty small list. All of it (except the scouts) is quite potent, but it's probably too small.

 

 

After 7th I made a few changes the addition of a left las to turn one of my dreads to a Mortis + the mere threat that I may field a couple of LOD squads and the balance returned the games were as good and close as they'd ever been.

 

There's still the thorny issue of cost though its like your always playing with 1500 points in a game where your opponent fields 1750 and your having to wring every last drop from your lists.

 

I know what you Mean about FNP though and invulnerable saves after kitting out a Legion squad with FNP and actually getting a save for a change with basically tactical Marines it made me realize how much the game has swung with so much ap 1/2/3 around

 

So you're actually using Legion of the Damned? Isn't that illegal? I've thought of using it many times with my Ultra's because of the little bonuses they get make sense at their points level.... but I didn't think that was something DA could take.

 

I agree though, the model count is deplorable. Everything that is hitting me hardest isn't the elite stuff, it's the spammy junk.

[eurieus]

I'm not as experienced as you, but here is my  2 cents: 

 

A ravenwing CMD squad is awesome, with BoF or Devastation. The grenades can really give you an edge and they can take on pretty much every threat. I've had some success with deathwing, but the ravenwing is the way to go to be competitive IMHO. 

 

If you're planning on bringing DWK's to battle by deepstrike, then you need more than five, and you'll have a hard time moving them around against mobile armies. I tried using them with DS , but to make it work you really need to place them in a Hammer & Anvil setup with another unit. 

 

I've looked at a lot of your battle reports/list threads and you are really trying to bring different DA lists to the table, and that's awesome. I can understand why you feel it's a bit underwhelming to HAVE to bring Ravenwing to win. ( BTW i really need to try that Az-Zeke bomb of yours ) 

 

Keep the faith ! 

[SnakeChisler]

codex Legion of the Damned

 

Allows you to take them as a detachment 155 for 5 Melta Combi-Melta & Multi-Melta, ignores cover, fear etc I normally take 2 squads everyone round here takes allies these days even if its just an assassin

 

Their normal job is to nuke skimmers (wave serpents,  Ghost arks, Tau Tanks) assasins thunderfire cannons Imperial Knights just anything thats difficult to deal with

 

With 7th Tau & Eldar vehicles got a boost so the could get a 3+ jink its like the Mortis before I started fielding it my mates were starting to take the mickey by fielding 3 flyers and as soon as the Mortis appeared it went down to the odd 1 again and as the Legion took its toll the appearance of swathes of what was previously untouchable vehicles sank to normal proportions so I went down to just the 1 5 man squad that turns up most of the time basically to keep my opponents honest.

 

It does mean the tactics change coz its not an alpha strike set up with the ravenwing scouting and then going full throttle into my opponents 1/2 and its more a maneuver out maneuver using outflank etc type of set up.

[Prot]

I'm not as experienced as you, but here is my  2 cents: 

 

A ravenwing CMD squad is awesome, with BoF or Devastation. The grenades can really give you an edge and they can take on pretty much every threat. I've had some success with deathwing, but the ravenwing is the way to go to be competitive IMHO. 

 

If you're planning on bringing DWK's to battle by deepstrike, then you need more than five, and you'll have a hard time moving them around against mobile armies. I tried using them with DS , but to make it work you really need to place them in a Hammer & Anvil setup with another unit. 

 

I've looked at a lot of your battle reports/list threads and you are really trying to bring different DA lists to the table, and that's awesome. I can understand why you feel it's a bit underwhelming to HAVE to bring Ravenwing to win. ( BTW i really need to try that Az-Zeke bomb of yours ) 

 

Keep the faith ! 

 

I agree, 5 Deathwing Knights is not optimal in a list that will rely -this- heavily on their role as the only other real CC piece I'll have is Sammael.  That being said, as I will note below, it's the mechanism I want to test,and in 1K it will get a serious test.

 

Ideally, fleshing out this type of game mechanic with a 'swarm' of deep strikers, all (if not most) capable of taking advantage of the banner: IE; limited dreads/speeders, etc. (I made this mistake a while ago when I posted a funky list I wanted to try and a few people said they wanted to try it: I took too many 'slow' units that also couldn't benefit from FnP).

 

Thanks for the compliment. Ironically Az-Zeke bomb was created out of the same level of insanity that has me wanting to try this list this week. I still think that list is solid for objective based game and maybe even more so in today's 'Everyone has FnP or some special rules' kind of meta we seem to be in now.

 

I know it's plausible. I've seen Grey Knights do it a million times. No, we don't have a Draigo, but this is the challenge.

 

codex Legion of the Damned

 

Allows you to take them as a detachment 155 for 5 Melta Combi-Melta & Multi-Melta, ignores cover, fear etc I normally take 2 squads everyone round here takes allies these days even if its just an assassin

 

Their normal job is to nuke skimmers (wave serpents,  Ghost arks, Tau Tanks) assasins thunderfire cannons Imperial Knights just anything thats difficult to deal with

 

With 7th Tau & Eldar vehicles got a boost so the could get a 3+ jink its like the Mortis before I started fielding it my mates were starting to take the mickey by fielding 3 flyers and as soon as the Mortis appeared it went down to the odd 1 again and as the Legion took its toll the appearance of swathes of what was previously untouchable vehicles sank to normal proportions so I went down to just the 1 5 man squad that turns up most of the time basically to keep my opponents honest.

 

It does mean the tactics change coz its not an alpha strike set up with the ravenwing scouting and then going full throttle into my opponents 1/2 and its more a maneuver out maneuver using outflank etc type of set up.

 

Ah right. I should have known this as my Ultramarines buddy bought the Dataslate and told me intends to run a full army of them... That makes sense to include them though because while they are 'elite' they do make a lot of bang for the money. Interesting note on the playstyle change as well.

 

P.S. I don't have a Mortis (dread?) and typically only use a dread with my Ultra's because hey, dual heavy flamers on a deep striking AV13 dread is actually decent. :) 

 

I do have and tried my Sicaran tank with Lascannon sponsons. It is very reasonable, but highly targeted naturally. I also have  Fire Raptor freshly put together but I have yet to field it. (A little part of me is sad to officially use it in place of our hotly debated 'air force'.)

 

Anyway, I have two lists rolling... Using this mechanism... at 1K it is simply:

 

Sammael  200

 

RW CMD Sqd: 290 (ouch)

5 dudes, Fort Banner, RW Grenade, Co.Champ (still like him for his cost.)

 

RW Attack Sqd: 214

5 bikes, 2 meltas, Attack Bike MM

 

Scout Squad x 5 (I need something with infiltrate that can hide in terrain for cheap troops and something that can stay back and not require babysitting for Maelstrom as the rest of the list will be full throttle ahead.)

 

Mandatory Elite Choice:

Deathwing Knights x 5 235

(I like these guys, and I don't like them. Expensive? Yes. Right situation, they are gold. The idea of course is the CMD squad is scouting up, and bringing them down off with the homer on the bikes. This will give yet another T5 squad with good saves, and FNP into the mix early.)

 

This week is Elite choice is mandatory. I get bonus points in each game for each kill they get, and give up a victory point as well if I lose them. They seemed to be the best to synergize with the FNP angle.

 

Second list had an Elite Dread podding in, using saved points for a min 3 man biker squad as a secondary troop choice instead of the Scouts.

 

The problem is I still need something that can fart around through cover, for cheap for Maelstrom.

 

I have thought about it.... and the Mechanism I want to hang my hat on right now for this experiment is the Fortitude banner. Going forward, if this works, I can build on it as our league escalates. but for each week I am stuck with one list. So if I go with this, it has to be used for a standard  War mission and a Maelstrom. Back to back.

 

I can still drag out my Ultra's. I know no one wants to hear that but they do 'cheap' a little better than DA. I strongly prefer their tacticals. After that both codexes have expensive, but very cool specialized units. 

 

Thanks for your advice guys. I appreciate it.

 

 

I actually think that this MIGHT be a good test at 1K this week to test out the mechanism I'm talking about. IF what I'm planning comes together in time for the next game, I can see if I do indeed get the survivability out of a small army that I need. 

[SnakeChisler]

With elites though your looking to get a big bang out of them early game as you'll loose any war of attrition.

 

Sammael in these sort of games can boost 24" due to being a jetbike and single handed mop up say 5 man tac/scout squads added to the death wing knights he'll give them assault grenades & hit and run. Hit & run is a good way of sling shotting a unit across the battlefield. The last thing you need is your elite unit tar pitted.

 

I've had several queries on this tactic, yes you do get h&r from 1 model and a 3 d6 boost, also Sam doesn't suffer from the height on buildings (again jetbike) and with 6" vertical coherency you can pull people off tall buildings

[eurieus]

I've never thought about DWK's and Sammy , will have to try it asap. 

 

Anyway, even with DS the DWK's will be durable against pretty much anything, and your opponent can't ignore them, except poor placement or very mobile army. Also Fortitude is the s**t for terminators. 

[shabbadoo]

I agree with Prot. It is all about the Standard of Fortitude- for both Deathwing and Ravenwing.  I know some Ravenwing players might think it is all about the Standard of Devastation, but then they usually post lists where they have Sammy, a RW Command Squad, BKs, RW Land Speeders, multi-melta attack bikes, and only a dozen or so basic RW bikes with only bolters (the other unit members having special weapons, such that they won't even be firing their bike bolters to any great extent.  So, they forgo taking a standard which gives FNP to the majority of their force to instead get 48 or so twin-linked bolter shots that will only be relevant if fired at enemy units that are not vehicles with AV 11 or better.  That's just a bad deal.  You combine Toughness 5, Jink, and FNP, and you have a lot of resilience- moreso if you have a Darkshroud (or two) cruising around.  The Standard of Fortitude also provides tactical choices in regard to how reslient you choose to be.  Do I rely on T 5 and FNP and be able to shoot, or do I rely on T 5, FNP, and Jink so that I can get over to that objective/into combat this turn instead?  Choices are good.  The Standard of Devastation is limited in what it applies to (and what those shots can be applied to), while the Standard of Fortitude applies to nearly everything you can get hit by, which is important for an army which will be outnumbered in nearly every case.  I used to favor the Standard of Devastation, but that has changed with time.  Now, join me as shake my fist in anger at Forgeworld for not yet making our special standards for us!  YAAARGH!!! :D

[SnakeChisler]

I've never thought about DWK's and Sammy , will have to try it asap. 

 

 

 

I'm also pretty sure he (and only he) can still use his full assault distance as in he doesn't get the -2" penalty, coupled with the fact he ignores vertical distance when assaulting its really useful.

[Prot]

I'm sorry guys, I'm just stuck at this point with the DA especially at this low point level.

 

I took my noob hat off and made (without allies/dataslates) what I believe are an equivalent Ultramarines 1K list, and even a Crimson Slaughter list that I think would utterly destroy the core of my DA idea... unless I had an incredible 'buy a lottery ticket on the way home' session of FnP rolling. 

[Stoic Raptor]

I can't see how Crimson Slaughter can wipe a DA army, when in my limited understanding, Dark Angels are mostly unaffected by CSM special abilities while having their own abilities specifically to fight CSMs.  It would be like Grey Knights getting owned by Demons.

 

I could be wrong - I've been Unforgiven for all of two weeks, after all, but I hope I'm understanding correctly.

[Solrac]

That's cool man it happens. Just put them in a box with a note to self "Open When New Codex Released" you'll be fine :P

[Prot]

I can't see how Crimson Slaughter can wipe a DA army, when in my limited understanding, Dark Angels are mostly unaffected by CSM special abilities while having their own abilities specifically to fight CSMs.  It would be like Grey Knights getting owned by Demons.

 

I could be wrong - I've been Unforgiven for all of two weeks, after all, but I hope I'm understanding correctly.

 

2 weeks? How long have you been playing 40K for though?

 

Okay this is just in theory, and on paper. But what I'm going with here is my instinct to expand upon the "FNP mechanism" from the RW Cmd sqd.

 

So what would I do for Crimson Slaughter? Something like this in 1K

Khârn (dirt cheap, and a beast in CC)

5 Possessed in a Rhino (out of the rhino for beast mode)

5 Berzkerers in a Rhino (Khârn here)

3 Deep strking Termies: 2 Combi Melta's, axe, powerweapon, powermaul. ala Termicide

Maulerfiend 

Obliterator x1 (deep strike for MM threat, or walk on for Las threat)

Heldrake (I'd take this even after the nerf, but against my RW it's death)

Chaos Spawn x2 . (No room for a mark but these guys are a lot to add in at 1K)

 

 

What about Ultra's?

Termie Capt: Primarch's Wrath + Burning Blade (I wish we had stuff like this.... I usually use Shield Eternal but don't think I"ll need it> Goes in pod with:)

 

5 Sternguard, Hvy Flamer, 2 x combimelta, 1 x Combiplas Drop Pod

 

5 Tacticals. Missile launcher, Razorback with Las/plas.

 

5 Tacticals, Drop Pod, Meltagun, Combimelta (Backs up HQ or goes hard target)

 

Thunderfire Cannon. (Solid gold at 100 pts in a smaller game)

 

Stormtalon Gunship, Twin Assault cannon, Skyhammer Missiles

 

Biker squad x 3. Gravguns x 2 (that's 6 gravshots at salvo 3 each.)

 

998pts.

 

 

 

Now I look at what I was working on:

Sammy

5 RW CMD Squad, GL, FnP banner

 

3 RW Bikers, 2 Meltaguns

1 MM Attack Bike

 

4 RW Bikers, 1 Meltagun

 

5 Deathwatch Knights pulled in by CMD Squad for FNP.

 

 

I had another variant with just one larger troop biker squad with MM bike, and a small squad of scouts but I can't figure out if I like that idea better than just adding more bikes.

 

This is such a small list... It has to be super fast to beat out range junk, (Thunderfires) and get under flyers. It just doesn't have the body count. 

 

I hope I'm wrong. This just feels.... really small, and incapable of taking on spammy Xenos and like I said, the feeling is of relying on FNP to save the day. 19 models I think?

 

I'll rework it. See if I can flip it more in favor of the DA. I'm stubborn that way.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Well, you are right, any of the above lists is better than the DA list.
But mimicking the Ultra list:
Company master with lion's roar, mace of redemption
5 company vets, flamer, combi melta combi plasma, drop pod
5 tactical, ML , razor las plas
5 tactical melt a combi melt a drop pod
RW black Knights
Whirlwind X2
Points to spare for extra stuff


They can be as good as your ultra list albeit with some game play differences.

Now if you want to play DA and feel DA and still kick some ass you have to go full throttle

b] 952 Pts [/b] Dark Angels
HQ
Sammael (200 Pts) Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Teleport Homer, Raven Sword, Adamantine Mantle, Corvex, Night Halo, ,
Ravenwing Command Squad (285 Pts)
- Ravenwing Black Knight (5): FgGren, KrGren, Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Plasma Talon, Corvus Hammer, Teleport Hover, Standard Of Fortutide, ,
Troops
Scout Squad (75 Pts)
- Scout (4): FgGren, KrGren, Scout Armour, Bolt Pistol, Bolter(4), Missile launcher, ,
- Sergeant (1): FgGren, KrGren, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, ,
Scout Squad (75 Pts)
- Scout (4): FgGren, KrGren, Scout Armour, Bolt Pistol, Bolter(4), Missile launcher, ,
- Sergeant (1): FgGren, KrGren, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, ,
Fast Attack
Ravenwing Black Knight (126 Pts)
- Ravenwing Black Knight (2): FgGren, KrGren, Plasma Talon, Bolt Pistol, Corvus Hammer, Teleport Homer, ,
- Ravenwing Huntmaster (1): FgGren, KrGren, Bolt Pistol, Corvus Hammer, ,
Ravenwing Black Knight (126 Pts)
- Ravenwing Black Knight (2): FgGren, KrGren, Plasma Talon, Bolt Pistol, Corvus Hammer, Teleport Homer, ,
- Ravenwing Huntmaster (1): FgGren, KrGren, Bolt Pistol, Corvus Hammer, ,
Elites
Heavy Support
Whirlwind (65 Pts) Whirlwind Multiple Missile, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers, ,
Fortification
Created by epicroster.com

 

still some points for additions in upgrades. Small, elite, hard hitting aka Glass cannon.

[SnakeChisler]

Librarian PFG bike

Ravenwing full command BOD

 

5 tactical marines melta gun melta bombs rhino x 4

 

Elite 1 dreadnaught

 

If it wasn't for the elite requirement I'd have probably stuck with yet another tac /rhino combo

 

You could move the points round slightly and make the dread a mortis + sub in a drop pod for rhino

[Prot]

Well, you are right, any of the above lists is better than the DA list.

But mimicking the Ultra list:

Company master with lion's roar, mace of redemption

5 company vets, flamer, combi melta combi plasma, drop pod

5 tactical, ML , razor las plas

5 tactical melt a combi melt a drop pod

RW black Knights

Whirlwind X2

Points to spare for extra stuff

 

 

They can be as good as your ultra list albeit with some game play differences.

 

 

 

Lucifer, I love that you're getting your hands dirty here. I really do, and at the same time I honestly can't fathom that list having much of a chance against the Ultra variant. And this is exactly why I do not make DA lists that 'function' the same way as the Ultra lists, because I think most times the Ultra variant will be superior on a unit by unit, and unit by cost basis. To be clear, I'm talking specifically about a DA mimicing an Ultra list where Ultra's just do it a little better, a little cheaper even.

 

The HQ: The Burning Blade is a beast. St7 AP2, blind... incandescent which can backfire but hey, AP2 at initiative is the cat's meow. Speaking of 'meow', the 'roar' is one shot... which I think is absurd, but off the point.

 

Vets vs. Sternguard. I hate to say it, but I'll take Sternguard everyday for the flexible rounds of fire (poison on Nids is so nice for instance, blowing cover off of Astra/Tau is gravy.)

 

Tactical squads: I hate that this is true, however even one turn of Tactical Doctrine is re-rolling '1's' armywide, and everything the Tacticals do. Where as my DA won't run as easily.....

 

Black Knights. They're beautiful. The type of angle I believe you gotta work as a DA player or you're playing a mild Ultra list, which is kind of my point.

 

Whirlwinds are okay, but there's a reason you won't see many Ultra players take them... the Thunderfire is considerably better, and has a dude that you can actually kick some xenos butt with....

 

Stormtalon? Nothing in the DA codex comes close to it. It's a cheap, cannon with Jink. And a superior load out and cost.

 

This is why I never try to mimic my Ultra lists. The DA, imo, just don't do the same thing as well. And this was my whole point of coming up with a core mechanism that is better/comparable. Out of the above list, I'd honestly tip the balance over to DA on the Black Knights. So I'm trying to find something that's going to work that Astartes can't do as well.

 

 

Librarian PFG bike

Ravenwing full command BOD

 

5 tactical marines melta gun melta bombs rhino x 4

 

Elite 1 dreadnaught

 

If it wasn't for the elite requirement I'd have probably stuck with yet another tac /rhino combo

 

You could move the points round slightly and make the dread a mortis + sub in a drop pod for rhino

 

I just have to ask.... what is the fascination with the PFG? I never understood it outside of a Landraider list. Every game I tried it (granted it isn't many) I have been stuck with it giving Orks or nids a 4+ invuln and asking myself... what did I take this for again?

 

Now if you want to play DA and feel DA and still kick some ass you have to go full throttle

 

 

b] 952 Pts [/b] Dark Angels

HQ

Sammael (200 Pts) Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Teleport Homer, Raven Sword, Adamantine Mantle, Corvex, Night Halo, ,

Ravenwing Command Squad (285 Pts)

- Ravenwing Black Knight (5): FgGren, KrGren, Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Plasma Talon, Corvus Hammer, Teleport Hover, Standard Of Fortutide, ,

Troops

Scout Squad (75 Pts)

- Scout (4): FgGren, KrGren, Scout Armour, Bolt Pistol, Bolter(4), Missile launcher, ,

- Sergeant (1): FgGren, KrGren, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, ,

Scout Squad (75 Pts)

- Scout (4): FgGren, KrGren, Scout Armour, Bolt Pistol, Bolter(4), Missile launcher, ,

- Sergeant (1): FgGren, KrGren, Bolter, Bolt Pistol, ,

Fast Attack

Ravenwing Black Knight (126 Pts)

- Ravenwing Black Knight (2): FgGren, KrGren, Plasma Talon, Bolt Pistol, Corvus Hammer, Teleport Homer, ,

- Ravenwing Huntmaster (1): FgGren, KrGren, Bolt Pistol, Corvus Hammer, ,

Ravenwing Black Knight (126 Pts)

- Ravenwing Black Knight (2): FgGren, KrGren, Plasma Talon, Bolt Pistol, Corvus Hammer, Teleport Homer, ,

- Ravenwing Huntmaster (1): FgGren, KrGren, Bolt Pistol, Corvus Hammer, ,

Elites

Heavy Support

Whirlwind (65 Pts) Whirlwind Multiple Missile, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers, ,

Fortification

Created by epicroster.com

 

still some points for additions in upgrades. Small, elite, hard hitting aka Glass cannon.

 

 

I actually like this a lot. It has MSU working for it, which is offset by T5, Jink, and Fortitude.

 

The downside is it doesn't fit the criteria of the Elite requirement. In my case I took Deathwing Knights. Which in a bike list is a beautiful combination for getting good CC in the list, as well as the scout boost for bringing them in without scatter. But it's a nightmare for points.

 

An interesting side note: In this list there is no actual requirement for Sammael so I wonder if he is the best choice here for 200pts? Not saying he isn't, just wondering.

 

P.S.

 

As a side note, I realize that this thread, or my post could be construed as 'negative' but I think this is just the result of asking some tough questions of the DA codex. I'm trying to remove personal bias, and questions of 'fluff' and those types of things out of the equation and focus on the competitive comparisons. My apologies if this is rubbing anyone the wrong way. It's not my intent.

[SnakeChisler]

 

I just have to ask.... what is the fascination with the PFG? I never understood it outside of a Landraider list. Every game I tried it (granted it isn't many) I have been stuck with it giving Orks or nids a 4+ invuln and asking myself... what did I take this for again?

 

I play against armies that ignore cover a lot and have a shed load of ap2/3 shooting, generally no invun then no save which is why I've not bothered to expand my terminator collection beyond Deathwing Knights and some unpainted DV ones.

 

Against say the HellDrake the command squad would just get fried without it, aside from putting a 2+ save guy out front like a Techmarine it all kind of gets convoluted so I play not to get engaged in combat with units like Orks etc.

 

Meta in my area I guess

[Stoic Raptor]

 

2 weeks? How long have you been playing 40K for though?

 

My first army was Wolves from the list in Chapter Approved: book of the Astronomican,if that helps. :)

But I'll admit that I haven't had much "table time" at all since late in 4th Edition, so anything I offer is theory-craft.  I tend to go for characterful lists rather than competitive ones, since I'm not much for tournaments.

 

I just try to look at what we've got to work with and see what's the best way to use it in the expected scenario.  For instance, I look at the Dark Talon and it seems that its intended purpose is to stun an enemy unit so that it can be assaulted successfully.  People who use it to support DWK or RWK will find it more useful than those who use it in conjunction with Tactical or Devastator squads.  Just an example, but I try to look at each unit in a list with a mind as to how it works with the other units.

 

I am following this thread with interest because I want to know other ways that Dark Angels can be played besides the fairly-apparent Ravenwing scout/Deathwing deep strike assault scenario (though that sounds like a lot of fun!) .  I certainly don't want to seem like I'm presuming to tell anyone else what's good. :)

[Ultra Magnus]

Prot-

First off, don't worry about "being negative" for sharing your thoughts. Your bat reps, tactical threads, and lists are what keeps our little forum from devolving into a Unforgiven painting gallery.

A couple of thoughts for your list -

Your HQ

I LOVE Sammael but you are paying a truck load of points for his force org. manipulation which your list really isn't taking advantage of. He is economical for a full Ravenwing bike list but here I think he is just hurting your model count.

Consider replacing him with a PFG toting Divination librarian. Cliche I know but he provides the inv. shield and all of his powers are complementary to maximizing the high fire power output that your command squad can put out;

• Full overwatch plasma talons allow you to block a potential assault against a weaker unit. Who wants to charge into full BS plasma talons?
• +4 invulnerable gives you a "PFG" to shield another of your units
• Cover ignoring plasma talons? the definition of full of win.
• Rending for your entire army against a single target? Ties in nicely with pod tactical bolted spam
• Rerolling librarian saves? Keeps that PFG alive as long as possible

"Why the PFG love?"

The centerpiece of your list is the ravening command squad, even more so if you have Sammael attached to it. For that point cost you MUST have those plasma talons (and Sammy's cannon) firing EVERY TURN. This unit is a fire magnet and as your opponent I would just toss the odd lascannon at you every turn and essentially neuter this unit by forcing you to Jinx. The PFG shields you from his high AP weapons and allows the unit to continue to bring the pain every turn. This is why I think the PFG Divination librarian works so well with this unit.

Elites

For the points in this list I would consider replacing the DWK with a full squad of veterans. They give you more "mobility" factoring in the range of their guns, bring more special/heavy weapons to play (you are sorrily lacking in anti armor), benefit from FNP and potentially a divination provided 4+ inv. and with combat squadding and a drop pod are quite survivable via MSU.

General thoughts

Following the logic of the above you might look into a drop pod tactics list, with veterans supported by the roving libby command squad as a "sweeper". Cheaper, lots of MSU models, all benefit from FNP, and you aren't tied into one or two point sink units.

Keep up the noodling. I think we can squeeze out some tough lists, we just need to squeeze harder than most

UM

[Prot]

Prot-

First off, don't worry about "being negative" for sharing your thoughts. Your bat reps, tactical threads, and lists are what keeps our little forum from devolving into a Unforgiven painting gallery.

Man that made me laugh. Literally I'm eating lunch at work, read this and spit up half my chicken wrap. lol

Okay, you definitely sold me on the Bike Libby. Divination at 2 WC is hard to pull off without some serious luck though. The last game I tried this was less than a week ago. In turn 1 I fried the guy's brain, and was reluctant to do too much more with him as a result (on the psychic front). He is only 2 wounds, my opponent smelled blood an poured everything he could into the guy and got Slay the Warlord on turn 2.... that sucked.

Still bad luck aside, I think he's a smart choice for a DA list at 1K. Divination is somewhat still unique to us, so why not use it.

Taking Samm out changes the core significantly. Since the bikers aren't troops anymore, I minimized one squad with 2 melta's. I'm keeping Fortitude so since the list is small, it will be heavily grouped anyway, hopefully taking full advantage of the PFG and Fortitude.

Troops: This turns into a vanilla pod of bolter Tacts, and a 5 man infiltrating scout squad. Both of these hopefully can converge onto the Fortitude CMD Sqd.

Elites: I can't do too much here... just don't have the points so I can do a half arsed squad of cc/melta in a pod OR swap this out for a Ven Dread MM/Hvy Flamer in a pod. The positive of vets is flexibility and wounds, and potentially with the use of the pod, getting near the Fort banner. The Ven Dread saves me about 20 pts... but could die on a single pen which is usually what happens....

The Black Knights as a Command squad are kind of set in stone for me. But I think adding another 3 Knights with a GL is something worth exploring. More plasma talons, more speed, more skilled rider, more grenades. With 2 grenade launchers in the list at this point level, that means not only will I have a turn or two (if I'm lucky) of reducing toughness to multiple units but it's important to remind myself about the Stasis Anomaly to stack on top of the Rad Charge if the situation arises.

Just more food for thought. I do like this list a slight bit better because of the body count. 2 pods is nice... choice is always good and I know from playing heavy Ravenwing in the past, that it's always a good idea to isolate the opponent's army fast, and take control of one piece of the map fast, before they can react. Pods and Bikes do make this easier... even the Infiltrating scouts lend to this ideal. (or will be the only home zone squad I have in Maelstrom for objective play.)

This is a list type I'd never try if I hadn't come from the Ravenwing background. It's going to be highly reliant on my ability to focus down about 25% of the table at a time.

[Ultra Magnus]

So what does this latest version of your list look like? I am interested in seeing what you have put together and happy to "co-noodle" but wanted to make sure my random comments don't suffer from version control.

[Prot]

Well I haven't quite nailed it down yet as it feels like a battle between 3 equally important points (to me): Having enough bodies, having enough punch, and still feeling like a Dark Angels list...

 

Still sketching this out but:

 

Lib-Bike: ML2, PFG: 130 (Nice and cheap really) Divination FTW!

 

RWCMD Squad: x 5, Fortitude, RWGL, Champion: 290

 

VETS x 7, Power Axe (kind of a staple of mine - IE: he's painted!), Meltagun, Pod: 186 (fills Elite requirement for this week)

 

Tacticals x 5, Drop Pod

 

Scouts x 5

 

RW Attack Squad x3, Meltagun x2

 

Black Knights x 3, RWGL, 126

 

997.