AM vs Tau tactics? help?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Fire Warriors cannot take Pulse Accelerator Drones, thus their firepower ends at 30". Rail Rifles can do serious damage on the Pen, but at S6, they're unlikely to punch through anything, especially our prodigious amount of AV12+ we can field.

 

Of course of no small consequence would be details on what the Tau player is actually fielding. My advice is very different for taking on a Kroot with Crisis Suits army vs a Hammerheads and Broadsides force, for example.

 

The idea of allowing Broadsides while banning Wyverns and other AV12+ vehicles is a stupid ruling, though. This absolutely removes the Heavy Support section of our Codex, as well as so much of the Fast Attack slot that isn't Rough Riders or Scout Sentinels. Of course Pulse Spam will dominate in that arena - they removed everything that can resist it.

 

Tau's primary weaknesses are CC, as we all know, as well as the comparative lack of LoS-ignoring fire. Only the SMS can ignore LoS blocking terrain, but that will mean they don't get to fire their HYMPs, wasting their shots. SMS rounds are just fancy Pulse shots anyway in terms of stats.

 

His army sounds slow and ponderous - not very good for Tau IMO. His firepower ends at 36" and re-positioning stunts his output, so use that. Lascannon HWTs with Fire On My Target will end his Broadsides in a heartbeat. Spam them and a CCS or two, even without the order going off they're scary. If not that, then blob up a few Guardsman squads and put the Lascannons in there. He'll have to chew through the blob before he can cut into the Lascannons, which will spend the time during that cutting down Broadsides if you position it right. Add an Aegis Defense Line for solid Cover, forcing him to waste Markerlights without buffing BS.

 

His Pathfinders will hate Mortar fire, and you can field that extremely cheaply and out of sight. Remember, they can't shoot what they can't see, but the sheer amount of Barrage Guard can field means that you can. Also, Guard do role redundancy better than anyone else out there.

[WarriorFish]

Excellent post Coffee, our man in the enemy camp :tu:

 

This is the main reason why I dislike modifying existing rules, they just don't end up being fair. Better to stick with the official and standard rules so everyone knows what to expect, and the games play the same.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Agree. I hadn't thought about that point. I don't believe that in kill team you're allowed a 2+ armor either. That I could be wrong about though.

[WarriorFish]

You're not no, but if the rules are being edited without access to them we can't know how this runs exactly. I find that rules edited in such a way tend to mysteriously favour the army of the editor...

[fabambina]

 

also, my opponent likes pathfinders, markerlights, and broadsides. that was how he did the real damage. 

 

I have never seen a version of combat patrol rules that allow +2 saves, for the same reason they restrict high AV. The original rules for this setup (4th or 5th edition main book) did not allow better than a +3. Ask your group to restrict +2 saves if they're going to limit your vehicles. See how they like that bit of fairness.

 

yes, if i cast my memory back that long, i believe you are right. i am gonna check the PDFs i have of the old rulebooks after work tonight.

 

this version of combat patrol was pioneered at adepticon, and is increasingly popular on the tourney circuit. we are a group that goes to alot of tourneys, at least one a month. often more. so we try and keep things the same so we don't mix up our brains.

You're not no, but if the rules are being edited without access to them we can't know how this runs exactly. I find that rules edited in such a way tend to mysteriously favour the army of the editor...

yes, and remember we spoke about this in another thread last year, a local tourney with rules that favored the army of the guy running it, who was playing in the tourney!

[WarriorFish]

Indeed I do remember! Sad that it came up again, but there are always the bad apples out there unfortunately.

 

For now we should await the result of the PDF review, then we can return to helping devise units and tactics to gain victory!

[fabambina]

well, for those who are interested and still following, i checked the 4th edition rulebook under combat patrol and have discovered that 2+ saves are indeed illegal. so, this is a rule that we have not been using. 

 

it seems the adepticon rules have modified the old 4th edition combat patrol rules, adding restrictions on FoC and psykers that did not exist back then. i'll have to take this under advisement, but since playing in tourneys and practicing for them is one of the main activities of my current crew, i can guess that we will not be adopting the old rules.

 

although it does seem a little biased against certain armies, a good player and a lucky roll here and there will hopefully even it out. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

If it relies on lucky rolls, it's not a very good tournament system. Tbh, allowing 2+ Saves while banning AV12+ vehicles is ludicrous. 

 

I also personally wouldn't use a ruleset that's outdated by three Editions as the core of a game, but that's just my opinion as a casual, non-tournament gamer.

[WarriorFish]

I agree with Coffee, that's no good system at all. If you have to counter something someone has added to a system by hoping for some luck then that should be telling you all you need!

 

If you accept the rules then you've just got to roll with it, though I'd still make a point of highlighting the discrepancy. Perhaps an infantry horde might be the way to go? Keep things cheap and numerous and overpower your foes with numbers.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Tau do have some pretty good counters to massed infantry, namely cadre fireblades. They provide an extra shot if the unit doesn't move. And the rule stacks, he can put two fireblades in a unit of 12 fire warriors, and they'll get 3 shots at 30" and 4 shots at 15". I've heard some argue that at rapid fire range the fireblade just adds another round of shooting, which means that two fireblades would potentially add 4 more shots at rapid fire range.  84 (potentially) or even just 56 shots hitting on 4's, wounding on 2's and ignoring guardsmen armor means a lot of dead guardsmen...

[WarriorFish]

A lot of shots to throw at just 10 Guardsmen a turn ;)

[CoffeeGrunt]

Tau do have some pretty good counters to massed infantry, namely cadre fireblades. They provide an extra shot if the unit doesn't move. And the rule stacks, he can put two fireblades in a unit of 12 fire warriors, and they'll get 3 shots at 30" and 4 shots at 15". I've heard some argue that at rapid fire range the fireblade just adds another round of shooting, which means that two fireblades would potentially add 4 more shots at rapid fire range.  84 (potentially) or even just 56 shots hitting on 4's, wounding on 2's and ignoring guardsmen armor means a lot of dead guardsmen...

 

Untrue, it's simply an extra shot, not an extra Shooting Attack. 

 

This is great until you realise that they spent their two HQs to buff a single squad of Infantry that are T3/4+. Fire Warriors die like vermin under any serious attention, and with 30" max range with no mobility, they'll be outranged easily. As Tau, you don't want to be static, everything has to be flexible and able to react on-demand. A static unit is a potentially worthless unit.

 

Then again, I'm the person who doesn't rate Broadsides while tournaments can't get enough of them. That said, I don't play on Planet Bowling Ball. My units need to dance around LoS Blocking Cover to get their shots lined up.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I have an anti-infantry formation of crisis suits in all of my tau lists. it consists of 3 suits with TL burst cannons, a drone controller, two target locks and 6 gun drones. That's 24 twin linked S5 AP5 shots hitting on 4's, but I have to get to 18" to use it. Then I jet away in the Assault phase. I use fireblades in a firewarrior rearguard. My Warlord is out wrecking vehicles with his bodyguard (I take Farsight). 

[fabambina]

If it relies on lucky rolls, it's not a very good tournament system. Tbh, allowing 2+ Saves while banning AV12+ vehicles is ludicrous. 

 

I also personally wouldn't use a ruleset that's outdated by three Editions as the core of a game, but that's just my opinion as a casual, non-tournament gamer.

 

this may be unpopular, but this is why i am not a big fan of 7th edition. or 6th. they seem to be geared towards homogenizing everything and streamlining it and making it more usable for tournaments. it's tournahammer. 

 

there are some good ideas in these editions, but if you are not eldar, tau, or the new army they are trying to sell (knights), you are at a distinct disadvantage. my beloved orks, useless since 4th!

 

anyway, you guys have given me alot of tips. although i am restricted by the nature of the rules my friends and i use, due to our tourney participation, the tips you guys have given me here will help alot. 

 

thanks!

[WarriorFish]

Don't forget to let us know how you get on, and to show off your newly filled jars of xeno tears ;)

[CoffeeGrunt]

I have an anti-infantry formation of crisis suits in all of my tau lists. it consists of 3 suits with TL burst cannons, a drone controller, two target locks and 6 gun drones. That's 24 twin linked S5 AP5 shots hitting on 4's, but I have to get to 18" to use it. Then I jet away in the Assault phase. I use fireblades in a firewarrior rearguard. My Warlord is out wrecking vehicles with his bodyguard (I take Farsight). 

 

Not bad, but for 5pts per Crisis Suit, having two separate Burst Cannons would be much better.

 

 

If it relies on lucky rolls, it's not a very good tournament system. Tbh, allowing 2+ Saves while banning AV12+ vehicles is ludicrous. 

 

I also personally wouldn't use a ruleset that's outdated by three Editions as the core of a game, but that's just my opinion as a casual, non-tournament gamer.

 

this may be unpopular, but this is why i am not a big fan of 7th edition. or 6th. they seem to be geared towards homogenizing everything and streamlining it and making it more usable for tournaments. it's tournahammer. 

 

there are some good ideas in these editions, but if you are not eldar, tau, or the new army they are trying to sell (knights), you are at a distinct disadvantage. my beloved orks, useless since 4th!

 

anyway, you guys have given me alot of tips. although i am restricted by the nature of the rules my friends and i use, due to our tourney participation, the tips you guys have given me here will help alot. 

 

thanks!

 

More usable for tournaments? Vaguely, but also not really as far as I can see. Having a fair game with relatively decent balance is good for more-or-less everyone. It's not nearly as tournament-oriented as 4th and 5th were.

 

The problem is more with the tournament mentality, but that's another discussion for another time. Suffice to say, Tournament 40K has always been about three or so really powerful armies dominating a meta until the next new Codex rocks up. GW seem to have done a good job holding back Codex Creep, only the Knights and Necrons have been really powerful updates lately.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

I have an anti-infantry formation of crisis suits in all of my tau lists. it consists of 3 suits with TL burst cannons, a drone controller, two target locks and 6 gun drones. That's 24 twin linked S5 AP5 shots hitting on 4's, but I have to get to 18" to use it. Then I jet away in the Assault phase. I use fireblades in a firewarrior rearguard. My Warlord is out wrecking vehicles with his bodyguard (I take Farsight). 

 

Not bad, but for 5pts per Crisis Suit, having two separate Burst Cannons would be much better.

 

 

True, sometimes I do that. It all depends on how many markerlights I brought...

[WarriorFish]

Keep to talking about killing Tau, not equipping them before the commissariat gets upset...

[Chefzilla]

Here's my question regarding Tau. Is there any rule that they don't get? For example. I charge in with my CCS. I know that each unit gets overwatch but then suddenly it's overwatch, split fire, hitting snap shots on a 5+, etc, etc, etc.

[CoffeeGrunt]

No Power weapons, no special weapons in Troops, limited Transport usefulness, and vastly inferior Tanks. :P

[Teetengee]

I would second the infantry horde due to the combat patrol rules. Stick an autocannon in each squad and just fill the board with them. Eventually your autocannons and lasguns will crack whatever is thrown at you if AV is capped.

[DarkAngeal]

Gotta say, if your opponent is running broadsides, nothing is better for killing them than lascannons. Instant death those 2 wound bastards from your own deployment zone, or somebody mentioned out flanking sentinels?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Here's my question regarding Tau. Is there any rule that they don't get? For example. I charge in with my CCS. I know that each unit gets overwatch but then suddenly it's overwatch, split fire, hitting snap shots on a 5+, etc, etc, etc.

The unit being charged gets overwatch, and any unit within 6 inches can overwatch (via supporting fire). Target lock allows the equipped model to fire at a separate target, and if that unit spent markerlight tokens to improve their ballistic skill the turn before, they can overwatch at +1 BS for every markerlight they used. That includes overwatch, if you spend enough token you could potentially overwatch at BS5. If they used 1 token they overwatch at BS2, 2 tokens at BS3 etc... 

 

But it's only the unit that used the tokens that gets the boost to BS, and IIRC you cannot use markerlight tokens in your opponents turn. So they would have needed to plan that one ahead. 

 

Also be aware, that fire warriors and, I believe, pathfinders have defensive grenades, which will reduce your initiative. So you may be better at CC, but they get to hit you first, unless you can counter it.

[Chefzilla]

 

Here's my question regarding Tau. Is there any rule that they don't get? For example. I charge in with my CCS. I know that each unit gets overwatch but then suddenly it's overwatch, split fire, hitting snap shots on a 5+, etc, etc, etc.

The unit being charged gets overwatch, and any unit within 6 inches can overwatch (via supporting fire). Target lock allows the equipped model to fire at a separate target, and if that unit spent markerlight tokens to improve their ballistic skill the turn before, they can overwatch at +1 BS for every markerlight they used. That includes overwatch, if you spend enough token you could potentially overwatch at BS5. If they used 1 token they overwatch at BS2, 2 tokens at BS3 etc... 

 

But it's only the unit that used the tokens that gets the boost to BS, and IIRC you cannot use markerlight tokens in your opponents turn. So they would have needed to plan that one ahead. 

 

Also be aware, that fire warriors and, I believe, pathfinders have defensive grenades, which will reduce your initiative. So you may be better at CC, but they get to hit you first, unless you can counter it.

 

I should have called him on that 6" thing. His broadsides were above him in the building. I'll need to remember that. And the overwatch at 5+ doesn't seem to have a rule?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Overwatch on a 5+ Is via the Counterfire Defense System. Be sure to check what Support Systems a player has equipped prior to playing, as I once had a local guy secretly swap out his loadout mid-game to get a Shield Generator and survive a Deathstrike on his Commander. This is why I no longer play non-friends using Battlescribe.

 

 

The unit being charged gets overwatch, and any unit within 6 inches can overwatch (via supporting fire). Target lock allows the equipped model to fire at a separate target, and if that unit spent markerlight tokens to improve their ballistic skill the turn before, they can overwatch at +1 BS for every markerlight they used. That includes overwatch, if you spend enough token you could potentially overwatch at BS5. If they used 1 token they overwatch at BS2, 2 tokens at BS3 etc... 

 

But it's only the unit that used the tokens that gets the boost to BS, and IIRC you cannot use markerlight tokens in your opponents turn. So they would have needed to plan that one ahead. 

 

Also be aware, that fire warriors and, I believe, pathfinders have defensive grenades, which will reduce your initiative. So you may be better at CC, but they get to hit you first, unless you can counter it.

 

Markerlight tokens do not work that way, they only work for the Shooting Attack currently being performed, are spent to boost said Attack shortly before it, and all effects are gone after the Attack is performed. However, Snap-Firing Markerlights can themselves boost the Snap-Shots of other Tau units, hence the habit of supporting Riptides or Crisis Suits with Pathfinders to give them a decent shot at hurting a unit before it gets in. You are perfectly able to use Markerlights in your own turn as a result.

 

Additionally, Defensive Grenades do not affect Initiative. If thrown they induce the Blind special rule on Hit, which can reduce you to BS1/WS1. This requires you to be within 8", be Hit, and fail an Initiative test, but otherwise doesn't require Initiative. On the charge, Defensive Grenades simply remove your bonus Attacks for charging, again, no effect on Initiative unless you're Charging through Cover without Assault Grenades.